Building 00-SF for the first time - Advice please!

[Brinkly]

Hi chaps,

 

I'm starting out as a newbie to 00-SF, I have modelled in P4, but never built any track from scratch before.

 

I started last night building my first finescale 00 track, for my ex LSWR St. Breward project, which is a test bed before progressing further with Horrbridge.

 

First pieces of track. The copper clad sleepers will be used to attach the check rail for the level crossing.

 

 

However, I've run into a snag. When building the first B7 point (which is straight), the V of the point is obviously a bit tight to-gauge and the wagon bumps over it, suggesting the height isn't correct. Before making another point, what tips/suggestions/advice do 00 builders have? (I'm using the 00-SF triangular and roller gauges.)

 

Bar the track through the level crossing, the rest of the plain line will be from C&L, so is it possible to mix and match 00-SF with tradtional 00 finescale track through a point, to ease tolerances?

 

Kind regards,

 

Nick.

Edited August 11, 2016 by Brinkly

[Siberian Snooper]

I find building the "V" first and add the wing rails to it, the wing rail gap should be 1mm, use a feeler gauge to set it, with a bit of a radius at the point where it turns into the crossing rail. Then gauge the check rails from that assembly using a check rail gauge and finaly I add the stock rails. Others prefer to do things differently.

 

My first couple of turnouts were rubbish, but you have to muck a few up to perfect your own technique.

 

He who never made a mistake never made anything.

[hayfield]

Nick

 

Sometimes 3 point gauges have a slight problem with chaired track, in that the chairs hold the rail at a 1-20 cant. If the gauges hold the rail vertical once they are removed the chairs relax back to the 1-20 cant thus gauge narrowing

 

The other thing is that the check rail should be set using a check rail gauge, thus pulling the wheel flange away from the tip of the vee

 

Thirdly check the wheel back to backs

 

Could also be that the wing rails are slightly out of align

[hayfield]

Hi chaps,

 

I'm starting out as a newbie to 00-SF, I have modelled in P4, but never built any track from scratch before.

 

I started last night building my first finescale 00 track, for my ex LSWR St. Breward project, which is a test bed before progressing further with Horrbridge.

 

FullSizeRender(11).jpg

FullSizeRender(12).jpg

First pieces of track. The copper clad sleepers will be used to attach the check rail for the level crossing.

 

 

However, I've run into a snag. When building the first B7 point (which is straight), the V of the point is obviously a bit tight to-gauge and the wagon bumps over it, suggesting the height isn't correct. Before making another point, what tips/suggestions/advice do 00 builders have? (I'm using the 00-SF triangular and roller gauges.)

 

Bar the track through the level crossing, the rest of the plain line will be from C&L, so is it possible to mix and match 00-SF with tradtional 00 finescale track through a point, to ease tolerances?

 

Kind regards,

 

Nick.

 

 

Nick

 

Sorry for the rushed reply yesterday but was off to work, is the bump on both sides of the Vee or just one way ? I find normally the straight one is fine but its the curved exit where issues may arise.

 

It is worth checking the back to backs of the wheels as this is the easiest thing to both check and remedy.

Then check the gauge either side of the Vee, then check the check rail gauge

It could be the alignment of one or both of the wing rails with the vee

 

One of these checks should up the problem(s). At worse get a (new) curved (No 10) blade in your scalpel and carefully cut the chairs off the timber (chairs on ply timbers if left a day or more just lift off and normally can be re-used), normally these have to be replaced and if you cannot slide new ones on just cut the chairs in half and fit the inside parts first and let dry out first checking the gauge.

 

The way we learn is to fix our mistakes and develop our own build method plus learning from others. For 00, 00SF and EM gauge if using plastic timbers I am happy to solder the Vee up but fit the wing rails using plastic chairs (modified Exactoscale 0.8 check rail chairs). I also use the other Exactoscale special chairs for these gauges, mostly as they are.

 

Good luck and do let us know how you are getting on

[Taz]

Hi chaps,

 

I'm starting out as a newbie to 00-SF, I have modelled in P4, but never built any track from scratch before.

 

.........

 

Bar the track through the level crossing, the rest of the plain line will be from C&L, so is it possible to mix and match 00-SF with tradtional 00 finescale track through a point, to ease tolerances?

 

Kind regards,

 

Nick.

Nick, to answer your last part, yes it is possible. When I build SF points I use standard OO gauges at either end. In effect it is only OO-SF around the v and widens to standard 16.5 at the heel and toe. It then matches up fine with standard flexi track (SMP in my case)

[Michael Edge]

I find building the "V" first and add the wing rails to it, the wing rail gap should be 1mm, use a feeler gauge to set it, with a bit of a radius at the point where it turns into the crossing rail. Then gauge the check rails from that assembly using a check rail gauge and finaly I add the stock rails. Others prefer to do things differently.

 

My first couple of turnouts were rubbish, but you have to muck a few up to perfect your own technique.

 

He who never made a mistake never made anything.

The radius mentioned above is very important in this gauge

[Penrhos1920]

Another P4 modeler who is changing to 4SF. I decided earlier this year that the only way Penrhos is going to get built is by scraping the P4 bits I've made and start again in 4SF.

 

It is worth checking the back to backs of the wheels as this is the easiest thing to both check and remedy.

 

How many back to back gauges do you need for 4SF ? If I've understood correctly you need one for each brand of wheels that you use.

[hayfield]

Another P4 modeler who is changing to 4SF. I decided earlier this year that the only way Penrhos is going to get built is by scraping the P4 bits I've made and start again in 4SF.

 

How many back to back gauges do you need for 4SF ? If I've understood correctly you need one for each brand of wheels that you use.

 From what I understand you need the standard one which I believe is 14.5 mm, wheel treads and profiles do differ, but the back to back must be the same in 00SF!! I think what you may be thinking of is that some of the finer wheel sets may go through DOGE fine without alteration, though I could be wrong on this one

 

00 universal gets away with B to B's differing slightly owing to the in built tolerances within the standards, I understand some RTR wheels are not always to gauge again which may not notice on 00 universal track

[martin_wynne]

 but the back to back must be the same in 00SF!!

 

No John, you've got that wrong.

 

The back-to-back dimension is only a minimum -- it can be wider. The minimum for 00-SF (4-SF) is 14.3mm. It mustn't be less than this.

 

But not too much wider, otherwise the back-to-flange dimension will be too wide. That mustn't be more than 15.2mm. That dimension is the critical one for good running.

 

There is more about all this on the 4-SF page at http://4-sf.uk#setting_wheels

 

Generally, for RTR wheels, set them at 14.4mm back-to-back for best results -- see the DOGA Intermediate Standards at: http://www.doubleogauge.com/standards/commercialwheels.htm

 

For Romford/Markits wheels set them at 14.5mm back-to-back for best results. You don't have much choice over this using their squared axles for driving wheels.

 

For other kit wheels such as Alan Gibson, Ultrascale, etc, set them at 14.6mm for best results. Some may be supplied wider than this.

 

If you want to use the same back-to-back for everything, make it 14.4mm.

 

However, the best way is to forget about back-to-back. Make yourself a simple wheel setting fixture, as described at: http://4-sf.uk#setting_wheels

 

That not only gives you the best results, it saves the cost of buying a back-to-back gauge.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[skipepsi]

If you find Gordon S's Eastwood Town in layout topics it covers everything you need to know about making OO SFranging from simple to very complex, in fact if you PM him he might have some leftovers from his changes in design that you could adapt.

[martin_wynne]

p.s. The same applies to using different wheels on EM. Just add 2mm to the figures above.

 

Martin.

[martin_wynne]

Ready-made switch assembles suitable for 00-SF (4-SF) are now available from C&L, see:

 

 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/113963-cl-assembled-switch-components-available-separately/

 

Martin.

[Brinkly]

Hi gents,

 

Thank you for all your replies, sorry for not replying sooner - crappy couple of weeks at home.

 

Anyway, I've managed to build a point in 00, which works. Few tweaks to make, but overal I think I'm getting it.

 

One thing I would like someone to cast their eye over is my V. I've filed it on my jig, and soldered up, but would just like a bit of quality control help!

 

I've put it over the Templot plan and I think it looks ok, no bumps or rough edges. Does this look ok?

 

Kind regards,

 

Nick.

[Siberian Snooper]

It looks pretty good, the proof will be when you run some wheels over it.

[Jintyman]

Hi gents,

 

Thank you for all your replies, sorry for not replying sooner - crappy couple of weeks at home.

 

Anyway, I've managed to build a point in 00, which works. Few tweaks to make, but overal I think I'm getting it.

 

One thing I would like someone to cast their eye over is my V. I've filed it on my jig, and soldered up, but would just like a bit of quality control help!

 

 

I've put it over the Templot plan and I think it looks ok, no bumps or rough edges. Does this look ok?

 

Kind regards,

 

Nick.

 

 

Hi Nick,

 

One thing that does glare out to me with your vee is that the top edge of the point should have a small radius on it, it helps both the transition and also stops you getting your fingers sliced when you're cleaning your trackwork.

 

All great advice from the above, I'm a relative newbie to building my own track, but I'm enjoying it immensely, and not sure what I will do for entertainment when Talyllyn's finished!!!!!.

Templot is a wonderful source of accurate templates for whatever you want to do.

Best of luck with your layout.

 

Jinty

[The Fatadder]

From what I can see it looks like it should be good, just need to get the rest of the point built and run some stock through it.

Very satisfying seeing the first loco running through a point that you have built yourself!

 

One hint (no doubt pinched from one of the track building threads) that I have found useful is adding a length of 0.6mm thick copperclad across the sleeper at the front of the vee, and then soldering the vee and the check rails/ short length between the vee and switch rail. I didn't do it on my first point and it proved a pain to wire up!

[hayfield]

The angle looks good, if you have a little lump in front of the splice just put a fillet of solder there and file flush. Is the first one going to be copperclad or chaired?

 

Good luck

[Brinkly]

Thanks for the comments gents.

 

This one will be chaire, although I'm going use copper clad sleepers in certain points to secure the V. Is there a hard and fast rule for this?

 

Regards,

 

Nick.

[hayfield]

Nick

 

If you solder the rail directly to the timber you will not be able to fit dummy chairs, the chairs lift the rail 0.5 mm above the timber, I use 0.6 mm thin double sided copperclad strip, which after being soldered to both timber and rail (tin all parts first) is then ground back to the rail sides, scrap brass (or N/S) fret is a good substitute.

[Brinkly]

Thanks John,

 

I should have said I use the above method!

 

Kind regards,

 

Nick.

[hayfield]

Nick

 

I should have checked your posts, I call it the composite method of building. And is a great method for either those who prefer belt and braces approach or those either new to track building or just don't like making common crossings as stand alone units

 

On the other hand for those who are using plastic timbers after making the Vee just use chairs to hold the wing rails in place, so easy to do, in fact using the composite method use plastic timbers instead of copperclad and stick the chairs in position

 

Another method if you are using thick ply timbers is to scrounge some rivets, drill (not punch) holes in the timbers, glue the rivets into the timbers and solder the rails to them.

 

This is the great thing about building track, many ways of doing the same thing

[Junctionmad]

I cant find a source of 00-SF 3 point track gauges, C&L have a " no order" on theirs which suggest they have no source , is there anyone producing a 00-SF 3 point track gauge ?

[martin_wynne]

I cant find a source of 00-SF 3 point track gauges, C&L have a " no order" on theirs which suggest they have no source , is there anyone producing a 00-SF 3 point track gauge ?

 

Hi Dave,

 

It's disappointing after Brian handed over his gauge designs to C&L that they have not been able to maintain them in stock or provide the same level of service that Brian provided. They obviously sell well, or they wouldn't keep going out of stock.

 

The web site doesn't say that the 3-point gauges are not on order from the supplier, although it is worrying that the most important gauge, the check gauge, is no longer listed. I posted the drawing for that here: http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=2741&forum_id=6&jump_to=20620#p19016

 

Sorry I don't have access to any of the other drawings.

 

C&L are now stocking the DCC Concepts 00-SF gauges, and may feel that the duplication is not justifiable. The DCC Concepts gauges are multi-slot roller gauges and therefore barely usable in my view, but that's just me. They could be cut down to 2-slot gauges by the user of course.

 

I have noticed that C&L are now at long last stocking gauges for the DOGA-Intermediate standard, and do have them in stock.

 

The C&L business is currently up for sale, which may be affecting the level of restocking they are prepared to undertake until a new owner is found.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[hayfield]

I cant find a source of 00-SF 3 point track gauges, C&L have a " no order" on theirs which suggest they have no source , is there anyone producing a 00-SF 3 point track gauge ?

 

Phil may have some on the London stand, will be with him at Scaleforum, give me a PM if you want me to pick up one

[martin_wynne]

The DCC Concepts gauges are multi-slot roller gauges and therefore barely usable in my view, but that's just me. They could be cut down to 2-slot gauges by the user of course.

 

DCC Concepts track gauges at stock-clearance prices on C&L web site today: 

 

http://www.finescale.org.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=1108_1107

 

Martin.