Bachmann Ivatt Class 2MT 2-6-2T Old & New

[jjb1970]

I think there is no doubt that Hornby have been guilty of re-releasing old models that are just not good enough to be taken seriously in the current market unless they are offered as cheap entry level models. A good example is the Virgin ECML train pack, in my view it is quite outrageous that they’re marketing that as a main range model at the price they’re asking when the old Class 91 and Mk.4 models lag behind some of their own Railroad tooling. If older models are rereleased at a lower price point such as the Railroad range then they can still form a valuable and useful role. Much of the old Lima diesel and electric era tooling is still pretty good and if it provides basic but decent models to those on a budget or who want a cheaper model to convert or super detail then that is good.

Which is a long way from this Bachmann release. I do welcome the chassis upgrade, I also think that the body tooling is dated and not really good enough to be marketed as a full fat main range model at main range pricing. If Bachmann are going to use older tooling which is past its best then I think they should consider their own equivalent to the Railroad range as there is no doubt that a lot of their older tooling is still perfectly good providing it is priced appropriately.

[Black 5 Bear]

That assumes you choose locos in much the same way you might want to buy a can of tinned vegetables but aren't bothered which sort so long as a can costs 40p.

 

Yes, the Bachmann Ivatt is expensive for what it is, but nobody else makes one and, if you model certain eras and areas, it's pretty much a must have loco. 

 

I agree that the price-point is roughly where an all-new model should sit and, if (for instance) Hornby were making one at the same price as their Radial, I wouldn't look twice at Bachmann's effort. However, they aren't and I don't have any use for another Black Five whereas my old Ivatt is nearly worn out..

 

My reaction to the value-for-money issue is that I'll be buying a single replacement for "old faithful" rather than the intended pair, The body will get upgraded in line with my earlier example which will, in turn, get a Perseverance chassis. Once that's built, I'll have my desired brace.

 

However, I acquired the chassis kit some years ago and have gradually amassed most of what else I'll need fairly cheaply since. If I had to go out and buy everything today, it would cost almost the same as buying the new loco.

 

John

The bias towards Bachmann products on this website is breathtaking. Yes, they do some very nice models, however the 2MT upgrade, apart from the chassis is not one of them. People are enquiring how to upgrade this loco to an acceptable level of detail, is this really acceptable at this pricing, just because no other manufacturer has released a newer version ??? The comparison of the Hornby Black 5 was made because it was am older tooled model and not a direct like for like product.

Edited August 24, 2016 by Black 5 Bear

[Dunsignalling]

The bias towards Bachmann products on this website is breathtaking. Yes, they do some very nice models, however the 2MT upgrade, apart from the chassis is not one of them. People are enquiring how to upgrade this loco to an acceptable level of detail, is this really acceptable at this pricing, just because no other manufacturer has released a newer version ??? The comparison of the Hornby Black 5 was made because it was am older tooled model and not a direct comparison just because no

Actually, Bachmann locos form only about 15% of my total fleet (and most of them are BR standards and diesels) but my point is that, if anybody requires/wants an Ivatt 2MT tank in r-t-r form, Bachmann's is the only choice. I'm also not aware of any current kit-built alternative. 

 

I completely agree that (at full RRP) the Ivatt model constitutes half the job for all the money.

 

John

Edited August 24, 2016 by Dunsignalling

[JSpencer]

I think there is no doubt that Hornby have been guilty of re-releasing old models that are just not good enough to be taken seriously in the current market unless they are offered as cheap entry level models. A good example is the Virgin ECML train pack, in my view it is quite outrageous that they’re marketing that as a main range model at the price they’re asking when the old Class 91 and Mk.4 models lag behind some of their own Railroad tooling. If older models are rereleased at a lower price point such as the Railroad range then they can still form a valuable and useful role. Much of the old Lima diesel and electric era tooling is still pretty good and if it provides basic but decent models to those on a budget or who want a cheaper model to convert or super detail then that is good.

Which is a long way from this Bachmann release. I do welcome the chassis upgrade, I also think that the body tooling is dated and not really good enough to be marketed as a full fat main range model at main range pricing. If Bachmann are going to use older tooling which is past its best then I think they should consider their own equivalent to the Railroad range as there is no doubt that a lot of their older tooling is still perfectly good providing it is priced appropriately.

 

While the 91 and Mk4s are very old and dated, the paint finish is done to super fine standards and doubtless there is a license fee too.

Whether or not Hornby should bother going to the trouble of having a fine detailed and complex 21st century paint and printing process used on a basic 80s tooling is another debate (I would have simplified that and stuck the thing in the railroad range since ages ago).

 

For the Ivatt, for certain, new tooling can get to final detail. However assembly price is the number of parts they have to put togethor. If the Ivatt has the same number as a Fairburn, the model will cost the same. Both body tools should have paid for themselves by now, except the Ivatt needs to pay for the new chassis tooling. The Fairburn, dating from cheaper days, does not.

 

The Ivatt stands above any Hornby pre 2000 tooling including ex Dapol stock by some margin. Sure it looks expensive compare to other offerings, but Bachmann in general are starting to look expensive period.  If they sell, Bachmann will keep to it. If they don't then they either scale back or rethink their operations.

[John M Upton]

There is one of the new chassis Ivatts on EBay at the moment which started at 99p. It will be interesting to see what it fetches as this could set the mark of what this should have been priced at.

 

Meanwhile the Model Rail review is a bit odd. It describes the Ivatt as recommended but then says you really ought to start buying new chimneys for it due to the old tooling mould lines.

 

I meanwhile continue to pick up cheap sub thirty five quid old chassis versions which does me thank you very much.

[coachmann]

'Intermediate staging' is a way of getting customers to finance the partial upgrade. Hornby has been doing it for years. There is a lot more that needs to be done to the Ivatt 2-6-2T than merely replacing the chimney, but if folk want to pay a high price for this partial upgrade, it's their money. 

[PenrithBeacon]

I bought a body from 'Richard's Spares', chassis from Comet, wheels etc from AGW and then put these bits in box which went in a larger box and is now in the loft!

 

Somewhere!

[bourneagain]

I wonder if we are being taken for a ride with Bachmann, do they believe that we British Modellers are so gullible enough to pay this sort of money for a remarketed 20? year old product at today’s inflated prices, just so it is able to be operated on a DCC layout. Or will it end up by not selling in the numbers they forecast and in a few months time we will see it being heavily discounted. Today I noticed that the Midland Compound (31-932DC) which had a similar price tag to this Ivatt is now being sold by Rails for £79.50 which is some £80 discount on the original RRP of £159.95, and that is for a completely new model. And if I`m being honest this is the amount I would have expected to pay for this revamped Ivatt.

No doubt prices will increase even more over the coming months / years and I can see a time coming when only the better off will be able to afford these products, that is, if they are still being produced for the mass market.

[Butler Henderson]

Today I noticed that the Midland Compound (31-932DC) which had a similar price tag to this Ivatt is now being sold by Rails for £79.50 which is some £80 discount on the original RRP of £159.95, and that is for a completely new model.

More like a 5 year old model to be strictly correct.

[Jub45565]

Yes they do! Thank you for that, Cat No CH25.

 

http://247developments.co.uk/loco_detailing.html

 

Regards

Branchlines also do them, both tall & short.

[rembrow]

Just read the Model Rail review of the Ivatt 2-6-2 and in the review and specs, it describes the model as having a 'coreless' motor and also says this is the same as the recent V1/V3 chassis upgrade, however in that review the specs table stated the motor was 5 pole skew wound. If they are 'coreless' types, this must be the first time these have been fitted to a Bachmann UK model, but users on DC need to be aware due to issues with feedback controllers and electronic rail cleaners. It would be useful to get confirmation.

[Ian Hargrave]

If it actually is a coreless motor as described in Richard Foster's review....yes,I too sat up when I read that...then that is an entirely new departure for Bachmann who have relied uopn their standard 3 pole can motor for over a decade now. I note that a number pf posts on this forum refer to its performance being exceptionally good,particularly at slow speed,which is a coreless motor characteristic.Anybody out there like to confirm this ? Feedback control owners and electronic track cleaner users may feel the need to check this out with Barwell,just in case there could be issues.

[Ian Hargrave]

I wonder if we are being taken for a ride with Bachmann, do they believe that we British Modellers are so gullible enough to pay this sort of money for a remarketed 20? year old product at today’s inflated prices, just so it is able to be operated on a DCC layout. Or will it end up by not selling in the numbers they forecast and in a few months time we will see it being heavily discounted. Today I noticed that the Midland Compound (31-932DC) which had a similar price tag to this Ivatt is now being sold by Rails for £79.50 which is some £80 discount on the original RRP of £159.95, and that is for a completely new model. And if I`m being honest this is the amount I would have expected to pay for this revamped Ivatt.

No doubt prices will increase even more over the coming months / years and I can see a time coming when only the better off will be able to afford these products, that is, if they are still being produced for the mass market.

The possible use of a new type of motor may have a bearing on what appears to be an inflated price on this model.Worth checking this possibility.

[John M Upton]

It could have a flux capacitor under the hood, it still doesn't hide the obvious visual problem with the old tooling body shell bunged on top...

[Ian Hargrave]

I think there might be a little misunderstanding here. The Stanier Crab and the Stanier Mogul are the same thing and a different class from the Crab proper, designed by Hiughes. As Butler Henderson says, the Crab is a fairly new model but the Stanier Crab is a new tooling. The Crab had steeply angled cylinders and heavy slide bars whereas the Stanier Crab had horizontal cylinders and different slide bars. The two were designed to do the same job but there are many points of difference between them.

Gents,we are barking collectively up several wrong trees here..The new Stanier release to come later is a model of a Stanier 5MT Mogul and is not and never has been called a Crab of any description.The Horwich Hughes Crab was first modelled by Bachmann in around 2004 IIRC and is definitely one of the newer generation tooling.It does not have Palitoy/Mainline heritage,does not and never did have a split chassis but uses a standard 3 pole can motor.

[Ian Hargrave]

It could have a flux capacitor under the hood, it still doesn't hide the obvious visual problem with the old tooling body shell bunged on top...

  Was I suggesting that? I am posting about its drive train capabilities and not about its cosmetic deficiencies.Until some kind and informed person posts a definitive answer,we simply don't know.

[Jub45565]

Remember that Bachmann have had their fingers burnt with a few of the new tooling models they have rolled out - the Jubilee springing to mind first.  They created a whole new model, and look how many ended up being sold off rediculously cheaply by the box shifters.

 

Now yes, this does have its own issues (an incorrect wheelbase for starters), and some people may have held off hoping for the long firebox variant which was mentioned but hasnt been done (since the last use of the Palitoy mould...).  But whose to say they woundlt have made an error on an all new Ivatt that made everything decide to stick with the current one anyway?

 

I'm by no means saying that I wouldnt be delighted to see an all new model, but just trying to look at it from their viewpoint...

 

As it is, in my mind it is body is still the best starting point for a decent model of the prototype. If anyone fancies the Falcon kit, or the DJH Standard 2 kit, feel free...

[Clive Mark]

Remember that Bachmann have had their fingers burnt with a few of the new tooling models they have rolled out - the Jubilee springing to mind first.  They created a whole new model, and look how many ended up being sold off rediculously cheaply by the box shifters.

 

Now yes, this does have its own issues (an incorrect wheelbase for starters), and some people may have held off hoping for the long firebox variant which was mentioned but hasnt been done (since the last use of the Palitoy mould...).  But whose to say they woundlt have made an error on an all new Ivatt that made everything decide to stick with the current one anyway?

 

I'm by no means saying that I wouldnt be delighted to see an all new model, but just trying to look at it from their viewpoint...

 

As it is, in my mind it is body is still the best starting point for a decent model of the prototype. If anyone fancies the Falcon kit, or the DJH Standard 2 kit, feel free...

 

And .....unfortunately looking at DJH's website, their Ivatt class 2 tank has been withdrawn along with a lot of other kits.

 

Like the previous posters, I find the "new" Bachmann Ivatt 2 to be very disappointing. Solid buffers (of the old style) and solid smoke box dart.

 

Perhaps SE Finecast will be able to do something with the old K's kit they've acquired giving it a new etched chassis etc.

 

I think this is a case where duplication by Hornby to their excellent new standards, or by someone else, would be justifiable!

[jjb1970]

 

 

As it is, in my mind it is body is still the best starting point for a decent model of the prototype. If anyone fancies the Falcon kit, or the DJH Standard 2 kit, feel free...

 

That is a fair point and it is logic that I've applied myself quite a few times. I don't think there is much doubt that whatever its faults this model is better than what I could achieve if I decided to go for a kit. So if I really wanted one of these I'd probably buy it despite its faults and even though I think it offers poor value for money. However, I think it is reasonable to compare the model to other RTR releases from Bachmann and other manufacturers and if it looks poor by comparison then I think it is in Bachmann's own interest for customers to make them aware of their honest opinions.

[Leander]

The... Stanier 5MT Mogul... never has been called a Crab of any description.

They were known as Stanier Crabs to us trainspotters around Preston back in the day.

[rembrow]

Regarding the issue of whether the 2-6-2 is fitted with a coreless motor, I was able to get access to a set of the instructions included with the model, at my local shop. They are the more detailed type previously mentioned by Andy Y and at the second para it states (last sentence) 'For best results don't use with Electronic Track Cleaners or Feedback Controllers' . This statement is not marked as just applicable to DCC operation, so applies to DC and DCC use. I've just received my ordered Model Rail USA tank from Kernow, and that model has the same style of instructions and the same statement. Does this confirm that the motors now fitted to these models are the coreless type, there is nothing in the instructions that gives any info on the motor type fitted. I've checked the instructions on the last Bachmann loco I bought, the 64xx, which were in the old style, and those only warn not to use electronic track cleaners when the loco is working with DCC. Interesting, perhaps Andy Y can get confirmation from Bachmann as buyers need to be aware of the precautions with the use of coreless motors.

[Ian Hargrave]

Regarding the issue of whether the 2-6-2 is fitted with a coreless motor, I was able to get access to a set of the instructions included with the model, at my local shop. They are the more detailed type previously mentioned by Andy Y and at the second para it states (last sentence) 'For best results don't use with Electronic Track Cleaners or Feedback Controllers' . This statement is not marked as just applicable to DCC operation, so applies to DC and DCC use. I've just received my ordered Model Rail USA tank from Kernow, and that model has the same style of instructions and the same statement. Does this confirm that the motors now fitted to these models are the coreless type, there is nothing in the instructions that gives any info on the motor type fitted. I've checked the instructions on the last Bachmann loco I bought, the 64xx, which were in the old style, and those only warn not to use electronic track cleaners when the loco is working with DCC. Interesting, perhaps Andy Y can get confirmation from Bachmann as buyers need to be aware of the precautions with the use of coreless motors.

I think we are all indebted to you for taking the trouble to find this information.A pity Barwell has not seen fit to inform their modelling clientele of this new departure,which is significant and should have been given greater prominence.According to Richard Foster in his Model Rail review,the instruction leaflet for the Ivatt tank is a model of its kind.If there is a caveat on the use of feedback controllers and electronic track cleaners,then surely such information should be where it can clearly be seen....on the box....rather than a discovery after a ferret round inside.Twenty years ago,I purchased a Trix loco powered by a Faulhaber coreless motor. I then used a feedback controller and was strongly advised NOT to use it with that particular model.so I purchased the Gaugemaster DC analogue which I still use.This subject is already well-aired on this forum and has already effectively stopped a number of forum members from purchasing a Kernow/DJM 02 which is equipped with such a motor.Greater clarity,please.

Edited August 27, 2016 by Ian Hargrave

[Clive Mark]

I get the impression that replacement chimneys are not available anymore. I know that Comet did one but it has been removed from the catalogue.

 

Is my impression true?

 

Regards

 

Branchlines do three Ivatt class 2 chimneys in lost wax brass. LMS short. BR short and BR tall. I think you will be struggling to get the tall slender woodbine type from anywhere though.

[Clive Mark]

It would be interesting to know what the financial value of the coreless motor and Next decoder represent.

 

As this is a loco I like a lot I am running through my mind the work that needs to be done ...( A lot! ).

 

Tank top beading is too thick so needs thinning if possible. Wretched chimney to come off. Smoke box dart. Buffers. And those utterly absurd lumps on the tank fronts to represent what? Footsteps or the oil lubricators, or a strange amalgamate of both?

 

If the price was less I would resign myself to the work. The price really annoys me.

[Legend]

Andy usually manages to get a statement from Dennis Lovett whenever there is anything potentially contentious, so hopefully can get something regarding coreless motors. I'm not particularly interested in this model but would consider it if discounted, but not if coreless motor. I run my loft layout on DC with electronic track cleaners . I can achieve good running with a minimal amount of maintenance, so I'm quite happy with arrangement, so if there's anything I can't run I'd like to know and not buy it first and trawl through instructions

 

There's no mention of coreless motor in BRM review or Railway Modeller on any mention of restrictions on running the model.

Edited August 27, 2016 by Legend