What is scratchbuilding

[rab]

A comment in the '3D transfers' thread interested me,

but not wanting to take thread off topic,

I thought I'd start a new one.

 

The comment was about using a full side transfer of

a coach side on plasticard then cutting through

the window apertures, but the poster then posed

the question 'Would this still be scratchbuilding'?

 

The reason I ask is that I have drawn up on CAD,

outlines for a structure I want to create.

I was planning to print these onto paper,

stick them onto card, then cut round

the printed outlines, a process which to me sounds

similar to cutting through the waterslide outline.

 

Will I still be scratchbuilding.

How do you defibe scratchbuilding!

[asmay2002]

A comment in the '3D transfers' thread interested me,

but not wanting to take thread off topic,

I thought I'd start a new one.

 

The comment was about using a full side transfer of

a coach side on plasticard then cutting through

the window apertures, but the poster then posed

the question 'Would this still be scratchbuilding'?

 

The reason I ask is that I have drawn up on CAD,

outlines for a structure I want to create.

I was planning to print these onto paper,

stick them onto card, then cut round

the printed outlines, a process which to me sounds

similar to cutting through the waterslide outline.

 

Will I still be scratchbuilding.

How do you defibe scratchbuilding!

Yes.

 

Building things yourself from basic materials with perhaps some bought in components e.g. wheels, motors.

[Bernard Lamb]

As I see it you are making a model out of basic raw material.

What advantage you take of modern technology to provide assistance has no bearing on the actual act.

Bernard

[Judge Dread]

As I see it you are making a model out of basic raw material.

What advantage you take of modern technology to provide assistance has no bearing on the actual act.

Bernard

If the industry refuses to built what you require for your layout, then you set too and build your own. Invariably after much labour, you will notice that your wants are now available from the trade leading to constant enquiries at an exhibition you maybe displaying your layout at, "Is that one of the new ********** models they have just produced?"  

[stevejjjexcov]

So right Judge I have an unfinished 42xx I was scratch building for a friend then a ready to run one appeared....oh sorry I don't want that one I've just bought one!!! So its in the back of a cupboard now as I don't model G.W.R. and I would class any thing built by hand from raw materials as scratch built

[BR60103]

Did you make the transfer yourself or did you buy it?

 

Does it matter unless you're entering it in an NMRA (or equivalent) contest?

[mikeandnel]

Did you make the transfer yourself or did you buy it?

 

Does it matter unless you're entering it in an NMRA (or equivalent) contest?

I would define 'scratchbuilding' as any thing that you create from raw materials (invariably because, either you cannot buy what you want or have the talent and time to make your own, which also gives a lot of satisfaction)

Michael 

[Guy Rixon]

The definitions of scratchbuilding concerning raw materials, above, are all good. However, I prefer a different distinction for a class of hand-built models: one where the builder has researched the prototype and made some parts to the scale dimensions, preferring those to commercial parts that are wrong. To me, this is more significant than the proportion of raw material in the model. I don't think we have a specific term for this approach, although "finescale" in the broader sense comes close.

 

I'm not thinking about finer-scale wheels here, but more the case where one makes, say, new ends for a van because the ones in the kit are 3 scale inches too wide.

Edited August 18, 2016 by Guy Rixon

[grahame]

'Scratch-building' - building things from scratch.

 

Although I wouldn't specify from 'raw' materials in having to mine the ore and smelt the metal and synthetize and manufacture plastics. However, using basic materials like cardboard, styrene sheet and strip brass as produced for modellers is fine. Then cutting, shaping and gluing them together. And the use of some ready made or commercially produced components like wheels is acceptable IMO.

 

But at the end of the day does it really matter what the definition is and the extent to which you adhere to it? The important thing is that you are undertaking some modelling, having fun and enjoying yourself. And at the end of the day you will have something you built, many others will not have and that you can take pride in.

 

G. 

[Kris]

The reason I ask is that I have drawn up on CAD,

outlines for a structure I want to create.

I was planning to print these onto paper,

stick them onto card, then cut round

the printed outlines, a process which to me sounds

similar to cutting through the waterslide outline.

 

 

That sounds like scratch building to me because you have created the prints that you are cutting out. 

[Bernard Lamb]

I'm not thinking about finer-scale wheels here, but more the case where one makes, say, new ends for a van because the ones in the kit are 3 scale inches too wide.

I would call that moderate kit bashing.

There are cases where a kit can use different ends to model another diagram, as well as to correct an error.

In the example you give the intention is to use a kit to provide many of the parts.

Bernard

[darrel]

Not that I'm bothered but where is the line between kit bashing and scratchbuilding?

Two examples

the shed building on my layout the front is a from a peco kit the walls and roof are styrene sheet.

The footbridge I'm working on is two Dapol kits but extended in the middle with styrene sheet and the hight raised combining the parts from the two kits.

In both cases I have used parts of kits but large parts are scratch built.

[sharris]

... However, using basic materials like cardboard, styrene sheet and strip brass as produced for modellers is fine. Then cutting, shaping and gluing them together. And the use of some ready made or commercially produced components like wheels is acceptable IMO.

 

But at the end of the day does it really matter what the definition is and the extent to which you adhere to it? The important thing is that you are undertaking some modelling, having fun and enjoying yourself. And at the end of the day you will have something you built, many others will not have and that you can take pride in.

 

G. 

 

Let's say I'm building a wagon for which there is no commercial model available, or there is no model that could sensibly be converted into it. 

 

I might use ("other manufacturers are available", but this is what I currently have in my collection of bits) Alan Gibson wheels, Keen Maygib turned sprung buffers, MJT W-irons, MJT springs and axleboxes, Smith's (I think!) 3 link couplings, 51L brake push-rods and brakes, Bill Bedford brake levers and safety loops, Comet door handles, and glue all those bits onto a styrene superstructure that I've built myself.

 

Now I've not used any parts from a kit and I'd say it was scratch built even though I've not fettled every component from raw metal. Others may say that the list of parts above (or their equivalents) would comprise a good portion of a kit if there was one, so it's not exactly 'made from scratch'. I suppose it's a spectrum and we all choose where we want to be on it. 

 

As David (BR60103) said, probably the only time it really matters is for competition entries, in which case the organisers should be able to clarify what they mean. 

[N15class]

This is one of those subjects where you ask a 1000 people you will get 1000 different answers. Here is my thread on the subject 4 years ago. I am sure there would be more.

[rab]

This is one of those subjects where you ask a 1000 people you will get 1000 different answers. Here is my thread on the subject 4 years ago. I am sure there would be more.

I should have realised there is nothing new on RMweb.

A very interesting thread.

Having spent over 25 years designing with CAD,

at least 10 of those in 3D, I would certainly agree

its not just a case of pressing a few keys

and a finished design appearing.

Sometimes it could be very frustrating

trying to get the system to create what was required,

but when it worked the results could be very rewarding,

But hey, I'm in danger of taking my own thread off topic!

Edited August 18, 2016 by rab

[N15class]

I should have realised there is nothing new on RMweb.

A very interesting thread.

Having spent over 25 years designing with CAD,

at least 10 of those in 3D, I would certainly agree

its not just a case of pressing a few keys

and a finished design appearing.

Sometimes it could be very frustrating

trying to get the system to create what was required,

but when it worked the results could be very rewarding,

But hey, I'm in danger of taking my own thread off topic!

I have great admiration for those who can design with cad I wish I could I am sure it would of got me out the do do more than once. Me I am old school, mark directly on the metal and cut.

Edited August 18, 2016 by N15class

[Kylestrome]

From the online Oxford dictionary:

 

from scratch

 

From the very beginning, especially without making use of or relying on any previous work for assistance:

 

"he built his own computer company from scratch."

[John_Miles]

For me it's the most enjoyable, and at times frustrating, aspect of railway modelling, whatever the definition.

[gobbler]

I love scratch building. Follow my links at the bottom.

 

My definition would be : Building things from scratch that aren't readily available, out of stock materials

 

My preferred medium is plastic as it is easily cut, glued and shaped. It can also be cheaper than buying a kit, which is important to me as I have a tight budget to work within.

 

When I built my suburban coaches it was before the announcement from Hornby that they were going to make and sell these. The biggest outlay on these models for me were the Bachmann Greeley bogies at around £6 a pair. If I'd wanted the set of three coaches from Hornby it would of been around £120 (£40 each roughly). Whereas all three have cost me approximately £30 including paint, decals and some white metal detail parts (torpedo vents on the roof)

 

Hope you get into this side of the hobby as I, myself find this very rewarding and sometimes a little frustrating but having the challenge on how to overcome things like my coach roofs and making a good job of it makes it all worth while.

Edited November 24, 2017 by gobbler

[Horsetan]

Scratchbuilding: the art of knocking up something for yourself because the Falcon Brass kit you had your eye on no longer exists.

[brack]

Scratchbuilding: the art of knocking up something for yourself because the Falcon Brass kit you had your eye on no longer exists.

Or because you've bought a kit, then opened the box for inspection and realised it won't fit together or look anything like the prototype.

[hayfield]

Initially my thoughts were where is the line drawn between" Kitbashing" one or more kits together and using commercially available items (wheels, chimneys, domes etc) on a model where the great percentage is made from raw materials

 

Them came to mind the "scratch aid" kit I have of etched sides and ends I have from Worsley Works, where basically the hardest part has been done.

 

Cobbling two or more kits together is I think Kitbashing

Using parts like wheels, chimneys and domes is in my mind scratch building

Using a kit of scratch aids (Worsley Works) comes more in line with kit bashing

As for the likes of MTK and Jedinco, they are in the main just poorly designed/made kits, that need a higher degree of model making ability to complete 

 

In the end does it matter ? to be quite honest if you are able to alter something and lift it to another level, it must be just as satisfying as building something from scratch

[Clive Mortimore]

What is scratchbuilding? Making your own models from sourced items.

 

What is kitbashing? Making your own models from sourced items.

 

To take scratchbuilding to the extreme then using raw materials would be the definition.

 

On the other hand matey wants a class ABC, and despite his request on as many wish lists he can find the RTR boys are still not listening. He finds a drawing of the type of loco he wants to build, he realises that the RTR cab from Hornby from their class XYZ is the same , so he gets a battered body and cuts off the cab. The tender is the same as Bachmann's class QPR, he braves the scrum at Warley with success. The chimney and dome are the same as the ones listed in parts available form a kit manufacturer. Luckly he is friends with a geezer who knows how to make his own chassis, so his mate knocks up a chassis for him. Teaching matey as he goes along.  A few other little bits are made and acquired and bish, bash, bosh matey has his class ABC. He has made a model from sourced items, is it kitbashed or scratchbuilt? I would say scratchbuilt. 

 

But does it matter what we call the end model, if it has been made from sourced parts. The important bit has the modeller enjoyed what she/he has done? If she/he has WONDERFUL.

Edited November 26, 2017 by Clive Mortimore

[Jeff Smith]

Let's face it, even the most ardent scratch builder would find life very difficult without the likes of Branchlines, Gibson, Markits, Ultrascale, Mashima, etc. Bodywork and chassis can be scratch built, albeit from commercially produced materials, but detailed components and running gear would defeat the majority of home workshops.

 

I have covered the spectrum from lightly modified RTR to a scratch built body (Met Bo-Bo and then along came the Heljan model...) I enjoy kit building and kit bashing the most so am in fact making use of the fruits of someone else's labour.... 3D printed bodies are of no interest to me but nevertheless I can see them occupying a useful to many slot, and if it inspires a modeller to move on from just buying RTR then there is definitely room for the technique in the hobby.

 

Structures in my mind can be considered scratch built even if using commercially available sheet materials and details like windows, gutters, etc. The creation of a unique, ie, not available in kit form, building being the aim.

[BG John]

What is scratchbuilding? Making your own models from sourced items.

 

What is kitbashing? Making your own models from sourced items.

There's a difference though. The first is creating your own design, and sourcing materials and/or components to make it. The second is taking someone else's design, and making alterations to it. Both have their place, and need a builder with creative skills, but I think they need separate definitions.

 

What are the "sourced items". Are they natural materials dug up from your garden, manufactured materials such as plastic sheet, or motors, gearboxes, wheels, cast axleboxes, etched chassis etc.? Somewhere along that line there must be a point where "sourced items" are no longer items for scratchbuilders.

 

To take scratchbuilding to the extreme then using raw materials would be the definition.

How far is it acceptable to go beyond that before it stops being scratchbuiling? Surely that's what scratchbuilding ideally is, starting from scratch, or starting with nothing. If you buy any ready made parts, you're not doing that. I think taking it as far as digging up minerals from the ground, and processing them into materials to build your model from is rather impractical though, but there should be an intent to start from basic materials as much as possible. In the world we live in, and with the skills and access to resources that modellers have, I think starting from scratch realistically means starting from sheets and sections of basic materials, like metal, wood, plastic, or paper. There are items that are beyond all but the most skilled with unlimited time, like motors, gears and wheels, but there has to be a limit on how many ready made components are used, before you're no longer scratchbuilding. So perhaps the intent behind scratchbuilding should be to use the minimum number of manufactured components possible. By possible, I mean that the first choice should be to make it, and to buy as a last resort, rather than starting off a scratchbuild by buying all the ready made parts you can find!

 

On the other hand matey wants a class ABC, and despite his request on as many wish lists he can find the RTR boys are still not listening. He finds a drawing of the type of loco he wants to build, he realises that the RTR cab from Hornby from their class XYZ is the same , so he gets a battered body and cuts off the cab. The tender is the same as Bachmann's class QPR, he braves the scrum at Warley with success. The chimney and dome are the same as the ones listed in parts available form a kit manufacturer. Luckly he is friends with a geezer who knows how to make his own chassis, so his mate knocks up a chassis for him. Teaching matey as he goes along.  A few other little bits are made and acquired and bish, bash, bosh matey has his class ABC. He has made a model from sourced items, is it kitbashed or scratchbuilt? I would say scratchbuilt. ?

I'd call that "RTR bashing". I have a plan for converting a OO Hornby 2721 pannier into a broad gauge saddle tank in P4. It will need a lot of work that could be described as scratchbuilding if it was part of a different project, and bashing parts from kits, but the starting point is a RTR model. To me, it's not scratchbuilding, even though you could argue that what's left of the RTR model is a "sourced Item".

 

But does it matter what we call the end model, if it has been made from sourced parts. The important bit has the modeller enjoyed what he has done? If she/he has WONDERFUL.

Ideally, no. But if you're comparing fitting wire handrails to a RTR loco, with building a complete loco from wood cut from a tree in your garden, I think you need some fairly well defined definitions to differentiate the time and skills involved.

 

Just to throw another spanner in the works, is there a difference between designing and making parts for "scratchbuilt" models by hand, or using machines? They both require quite a high level of skill. I'm currently designing the first scratchbuilt loco that I will ever have been able to finish (or even get properly started on). I hope!!!!!! The 3D CAD drawing will be used for 3D printing from plastic filament, cutting or milling plastic sheet, and maybe laser printing the painting and lining onto paper that will be cut out with my Silhouette Portrait. I think starting from sheets or reels of plastic, sheets of paper, and laser printer toner, is pretty near to using basic materials! The physical work will involve assembling a kit! It's a static model, so I won't have to compromise by using a bought motor!