Where next for the Class 442s?

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Anyone know what the latest position is on the future (if any) for the Class 442 now coming off lease from the Gatwick Express?

 

Thanks in anticipation.

 

[Guest B Exam]

Store at Papworth's, Ely for the time being. 47815 currently dragging one north to East Anglia at the moment.

['CHARD]

I confess that the future for these looks somewhat bleak, if I'm honest.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I certainly hope that they are not kept in store for long when so many parts of the rail network have overcrowded trains. Most likely solution would seem to be to leave out the motor car, with its ancient traction equipment, and have 4-car push-pull units.

 

PS: I think there was another thread about this a couple of months back.

[Derekstuart]

They are comfortable, quiet, smooth and pleasant to travel in- so I imagine they will be scrapped in favour of some cramped, noisy and generic emu off the shelf from Germany/Spain/Japan.

 

I don't know what they are like for fitters to maintain at that age nor what they are like for drivers, but for passengers I much prefer them to anything else on the Southern- not out of some old fashioned nostalgia for the days when our little island was capable of designing and building things, but for the objective fact that they feel like a proper train.

 

The 442 is sufficiently nice to travel on that I am surprised we don't have to stick pins in our legs at each station to know what a desiro passenger feels like.

[Zomboid]

They're done for. It's not far off 30 years since they were introduced on the Weymouth line, and the traction equipment is about 50 years old.

They'd need expensive modifications to operate in push pull with anything other than a 33/1, and AFAIK they aren't compliant with the PRMTSI requirements which come into force in 2020.

There is next to no market for BR built EMUs these days, I guess new builds have got cheap lately.

They are being replaced with cheap generic off the shelf trains though, but said trains are from Derby...

['CHARD]

I certainly hope that they are not kept in store for long when so many parts of the rail network have overcrowded trains. Most likely solution would seem to be to leave out the motor car, with its ancient traction equipment, and have 4-car push-pull units.

 

PS: I think there was another thread about this a couple of months back.

 

This was discussed when there was a possibility (I put it no stronger) that these could be used as push-pull LHCS on Trans Pennine.  Now purpose-built LHCS is on order for First, I think that particular prospect has evaporated. 

 

 

 

I don't know what they are like for fitters to maintain at that age nor what they are like for drivers, but for passengers I much prefer them to anything else on the Southern- not out of some old fashioned nostalgia for the days when our little island was capable of designing and building things, but for the objective fact that they feel like a proper train.

 

Southern already has internal cascades resulting from new train orders, as part of the GTR franchise, that enable the 442s to be retired.  They are now a small, non-standard fleet with life-expired traction equipment.

 

 

They're done for. It's not far off 30 years since they were introduced on the Weymouth line, and the traction equipment is about 50 years old.

They'd need expensive modifications to operate in push pull with anything other than a 33/1, and AFAIK they aren't compliant with the PRMTSI requirements which come into force in 2020.

There is next to no market for BR built EMUs these days, I guess new builds have got cheap lately.

They are being replaced with cheap generic off the shelf trains though, but said trains are from Derby...

 

Pretty much nailed it!

[Zomboid]

Wasn't there some chat about using them as LHCS on the Portsmouth - Cardiff service too?

I remember them being relatively shiny and new on the SWML. I can't see where they'd be any use, but I'd like to think that one might escape the scrapper. I think they have the sockets for ETH, so I suppose there's more than no chance whatsoever, but not by much. What chance a final run from Waterloo - Weymouth?

[Peter Kazmierczak]

My initial post shows the railtour that ran on bank Holiday Monday with 2415 + 2418. Waterloo (via Guildford and Havant to Poole; back via Eastleigh and Basingstoke.

 

If there was one down to Weymouth it'd have to be just one 5-car unit due to (limited) power supply between there and Poole.

[modfather]

Fgw were looking into using them as push/pull or LHCS, but plans may have changed since I moved on.

[Derekstuart]

zomboid: those Derby built trains you write about are little more than meccano sets being assembled here. Certainly your are not talking about the same Derby that used to design and build from the rail upwards.

[PaulRhB]

Fgw were looking into using them as push/pull or LHCS, but plans may have changed since I moved on.

Yes confirmed as a dead idea from someone I know in GWR who appreciated them as good stock and rather liked the idea of a 33 hauling them too

[Enterprisingwestern]

Four Mk1's + Two 442's + a bit of metal bashing around the gangway ends = A 4REP, yippee.

 

Mike.

 

Edited thanks to Russ "the pedant" P's post below!

Edited August 31, 2016 by Enterprisingwestern

[russ p]

Four Mk1's + One 442 + a bit of metal bashing around the gangway ends = A 4REP, yippee.

 

Mike.

Don't you need two power cars for a REP

[phil-b259]

 

I don't know what they are like for fitters to maintain at that age nor what they are like for drivers, but for passengers I much prefer them to anything else on the Southern- not out of some old fashioned nostalgia for the days when our little island was capable of designing and building things, but for the objective fact that they feel like a proper train.

 

An absolute nightmare is the truth from my friends who have / had that pleasure. While the connectors at each end of vehicles and switch banks etc may be the same it appears that the builders were given free reign to wire up the insides as they saw fit, with very few actually matching the supposed design drawings. As a result no two units are the same - unlike modern units which adopt the modular system of construction (with much of it done off the vehicle itself) and where standardisation within the fleet is much higher.

 

I also believe there are a number things like air conditioning equipment that are not fully interchangeable between all members of the fleet, plus things like the door operating systems are no longer in production.

 

Effectively what they need is a strip down to bare metal, corrosion repairs then then a full rewire / replacement interiors - and that ignores the traction package side of things, or the simple fact that two narrow end doors on a 23m long carriage are totally unsuitable for the amount of passengers the trains need to be able to 'process' at stations on busy commuter routes - which these days easily includes destinations like Southampton, Portsmouth, Brighton, etc

 

Ultimately, yes the 442 was a fine train for its age and was a very effective solution to BRs need to replace the Mk1 stock on Bournemouth / Weymouth services (much of which had been converted from 1950s built loco hauled Mk1s). However almost 30 years down the line the railway environment has changed significantly - with train manufacturers only interested in 'total' product solutions, the DfT responding to public pressure for new stock and the biggest factor, the sheer increase in the demand for rail travel meaning that each train has to carry more and more people.

[phil-b259]

Yes confirmed as a dead idea from someone I know in GWR who appreciated them as good stock and rather liked the idea of a 33 hauling them too

 

Wouldn't have to be a 33 - if anything the newly rebuilt 73s with their more reliable diesel engines (even if they have to be paired up) would be a better solution

 

Don't you need two power cars for a REP

 

Sort of

 

IIRC each Wessex unit effectively contains one single REP motor carriage. Thus when two Wessex units are coupled together they are the same in power terms as a single 4REP unit.

[Spannerman]

I always thought the 442 looked best in NSE livery and loved travelling to Portsmouth where I was a student in them.

 

Are there any chances that at least one set will be preserved?

[Ian J.]

I hope, somehow, one gets saved. If the traction motors from two of the others could be rescued then perhaps some suitably viable Mark 1s could be converted to make a 'new' 4REP...

 

However, I would be a little surprised if either of the above happened.

[russ p]

Anyone know what the latest position is on the future (if any) for the Class 442 now coming off lease from the Gatwick Express?

 

Thanks in anticipation.

 

DSCN4799.JPG

Notice the stupid headboard requires the night headlight to be used during the day. Would be an interesting one at an enquiry if God forbid it killed someone on the track.

' why was the night headlight being used instead of the serviceable day headlight?....'

[phil-b259]

I always thought the 442 looked best in NSE livery and loved travelling to Portsmouth where I was a student in them.

 

Are there any chances that at least one set will be preserved?

 

Don't know - like all EMUs the problem is what to do with them. Storage away from the 3rd rail does no favours for sealed units like the 442s - when they were laid up off the juice by SWT the interiors rapidly started growing mold, etc plus flies found it an ideal environment to lay their eggs. - The upshot being that every single carriage had to be thoroughly fumigated before the overhauls for the Gatwick Express could begin.

 

Mk1 units fare a bit better because ventilation can be provided through the opening windows - but without heating in the winter months damp will still ruin the interior unless some form of heat can be provided.

 

Personally I would say that one of the driving cars deserves saving by the NRM due to the number of 'firsts' the class demonstrated and its celebrity status (the first 23m EMU, the first Mk3 with power operated doors, Its role as a flagship new train which launched NSE, etc) - but like I said above it needs to be displayed indoors like the 4COR driving car, not left to rot like the 2HAP.

[Zomboid]

Personally I would say that one of the driving cars deserves saving by the NRM due to the number of 'firsts' the class demonstrated and its celebrity status (the first 23m EMU, the first Mk3 with power operated doors, Its role as a flagship new train which launched NSE, etc) - but like I said above it needs to be displayed indoors like the 4COR driving car, not left to rot like the 2HAP.

At the very least, the nameplates off Doreen need saving for the nation. Though I doubt they survived being transferred away from SWT.

[cornelius]

After enduring them on the Eastbourne route for a few years, hopefully in the bin. The ones that vibrated like they were shaking themselves to bits were the real treat.

[black and decker boy]

I can't see any hope now for these, too many new units on order, too many 'standard' AC units (317, 319, 321, 322) coming spare and too many loco hauled mk3s coming available by 2020.

 

There are even current design EMU coming free with no immediate home (360, 365 and 379).

 

Anglia has changed everything.

 

From what has been written elsewhere (and comments here to the same), these units were pretty much hand built, no jigs, no standardisation. It's not just wiring but body panels. All in all, too much of a headache and a lot better units are facing the scrap yard over the next 4 years.

[PaulRhB]

And during the winter, wheeeeeeeee BANG, on the ice as the motor coach struggled for grip

 

Not enough 33's or 73's free to entertain the push pull ideas.

[darrel]

If they were refurbished to the same standard as the Chiltren railways MK3 coaches and converted for push pull they would be great trains. Half the class 67s have no booked work. There are plenty of class 90s in storage as well.

They would be good for the Settle Carlisle line. Kyle of lochalsh or west highland services. It's crazy that these are being put into storage while there are overcrowded trains elsewhere.