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New West Midlands Franchise - Standing Room Only?


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My only bad experience of rail travel over the last few years has been with LM.  I found myself on a 2 car 170 heading into Birmingham from Droitwich at about 9:30 and it was rammed to capacity on a very hot day.  After standing for a bit and starting to feel decidedly unwell in the airless conditions an old lady caught my eye and gestured towards an empty seat by the window.  The young lady on the adjacent seat didn't seem entirely pleased about my arrival but I was so glad to sit down that I didn't really care.

 

I generally find LM to be pretty good,  I took the family down to london last week with them for a very reasonable cost.

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I know it doesn't fit with your agenda, but there are presently orders for lots of new trains for TPE, Northern and Scotrail, none of which get anywhere near London and the South East.

London Midland has had loads of brand new 350s in the last 10 years. And seemingly will benefit from longer trains once the Northern order of delivered.

What do you want, new trains every 5 years? These things aren't primark jumpers that you use once and throw away rather than wash.

My Northern 323s are due to be replaced by second hand stock from London which is five years older. (Not sure if anyone has twigged that these don't fit on at least two of the stations on our line). The other half of my regular journey is still on a 2-car Pacer with about 200 other people in the peak, or if we are really lucky we get a thirty-year-old 150. If some politicians get their way that journey will be replaced by a tram, others would like to buy the D train.

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My only bad experience of rail travel over the last few years has been with LM. I found myself on a 2 car 170 heading into Birmingham from Droitwich at about 9:30 and it was rammed to capacity on a very hot day. After standing for a bit and starting to feel decidedly unwell in the airless conditions an old lady caught my eye and gestured towards an empty seat by the window. The young lady on the adjacent seat didn't seem entirely pleased about my arrival but I was so glad to sit down that I didn't really care.

 

I generally find LM to be pretty good, I took the family down to london last week with them for a very reasonable cost.

Not necessarily LM's fault, 170s are sealed air conditioned trains, problem is if the air con is faulty should the train be taken out of service? Personally hate air con, what's wrong with fresh air?

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I tend to find LM worse than Virgin to some extent in terms of the staff mainly. By that I mean the guards/station staff and their handling of me using the train with a mobility scooter, sometimes they're ok, other times they've been downright rude and unhelpful.

 

On the other hand, the Pendolinos from Coventry are difficult to get the scooter in as the ramp ends up too steep and the access is too tight to get it to the actual wheelchair area. Much more space and ramp low enough on the 350s, but getting on the things is a nightmare usually with how packed they are. (I tend only to do this to go to the NEC for Warley or other events there, if travelling elsewhere (usually London) i don't take the scooter).

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My Northern 323s are due to be replaced by second hand stock from London which is five years older. (Not sure if anyone has twigged that these don't fit on at least two of the stations on our line). The other half of my regular journey is still on a 2-car Pacer with about 200 other people in the peak, or if we are really lucky we get a thirty-year-old 150. If some politicians get their way that journey will be replaced by a tram, others would like to buy the D train.

 

The new Northern franchise is getting rid of all the Pacers (thankfully!) and bringing in brand new rolling stock for regional services.

 

Meanwhile GTR Southern and South West Trains use 30 year old Class 455s for suburban commuter trains, which are rammed solid every peak without air-con. There's also 40 year old Class 313s running on the East and West Coastway (Brighton to Ashford / Southampton) Lines for fun too.

 

So one would hope you'd agree that rolling stock is a mix across the country, and not exactly "North vs South". But if you prefer to maintain it is thus, that's ok baby, I'll forgive you.

Edited by George Leacon
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I tend to find LM worse than Virgin to some extent in terms of the staff mainly. By that I mean the guards/station staff and their handling of me using the train with a mobility scooter, sometimes they're ok, other times they've been downright rude and unhelpful.

 

I'm sorry but I'm going to have to disagree with you on that statement in my time as a guard based at Coventry which was for 9yrs I found the onboard staff for LM very helpful and more than happy to assist our less abled passengers.

I won't comment on the platform staff though as they can't defend themselves here.

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I wonder of London Midland will get the TPE Class 350 fleet when it is replaced by whatever TPE is replacing them with? That said, I presume they would be more likely to go to whichever operator eventually picks up the Trent Valley semi-fasts and the Birmingham-Liverpool services?

Those services are being split off? Hadn't noticed that. In some ways Liverpool is a bit out there for the West Midlands, but unless everything is being redrawn it's not immediately apparent which operator would be better placed to take them on.
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I know it doesn't fit with your agenda, but there are presently orders for lots of new trains for TPE, Northern and Scotrail, none of which get anywhere near London and the South East.

London Midland has had loads of brand new 350s in the last 10 years. And seemingly will benefit from longer trains once the Northern order of delivered.

What do you want, new trains every 5 years? These things aren't primark jumpers that you use once and throw away rather than wash.

What's the obsession with new trains that so many people have? That's no guarentee that they'll be better in any meaningful way - the HSTs are still a more pleasant experience than most despite being some of the oldest in regular use. Obviously everything, trains included, wear out in time and need replacing but I can't say I say "yippee" very often when I hear about new ones on the way. More, yes, if I'm stuck on overcrowded short trains, which may well mean new, but newness for its own sake never impresses me. The only time I'm likely to be bothered about the new trains being old ones is if they've got a reputation for being on their last legs, breaking down all the time.

 

That said I'm looking forward to seeing what the new loco-hauled stuff Transpennine's supposed to be getting at some point is like.

Edited by Reorte
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The DfT have already lost at Scotrail and TPE. The unions will oppose this and they will win. In the end the DfT will blink and a certain man will no longer fly in to work from Vienna.

 

IIRC the ScotRail dispute is far from settled. Please read carefully what the RMT said about ScotRail's offer back at the end of July and note the bit I have highlighted in bold:-

 

Conductors will be retained on EMUs in the Network area.

 

It is proposed that any ScotRail EMU services that operate on those routes that are being electrified, now or in the future, and services that operate on the north Berwick-Edinburgh-Carstairs-Glasgow routes (i.e. excluding any EMU services currently operating under existing DOO arrangements) will be: -

 

1.    Guaranteed a Conductor on every new electrified train.

2.    Guaranteed that the Conductor will retain their full competency (rules, track safety, evacuation).

 

In addition ScotRail confirm that trains operating these services will not run without a competent Conductor on board.

 

This proposal, including the above guarantees, is subject to ScotRail and the RMT entering into discussion about and agreeing a method of train dispatch for these services. Once this proposal and the method of dispatch are agreed it will be adopted for the Abellio ScotRail franchise and will apply beyond.”

 

In other words ScotRail are committing to have two members of staff on board at all times (unlike Southern who will only say the 'plan' to have two members of staff) - BUT ScotRail will not guarantee that the 2nd member of staff will have control over the doors. Moreover if the discussions "about and agreeing a method of train dispatch" fail apart then the dispute will flare up again.

 

As for TPE, as far as I am aware there have been no actual moves to introduce DOO yet (just lots of talk / documents mentioning it), so while swords are undoubtedly being sharpened in preparation, it hasn't yet actually turned into a fully fledged dispute.

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My Northern 323s are due to be replaced by second hand stock from London which is five years older. (Not sure if anyone has twigged that these don't fit on at least two of the stations on our line). The other half of my regular journey is still on a 2-car Pacer with about 200 other people in the peak, or if we are really lucky we get a thirty-year-old 150. If some politicians get their way that journey will be replaced by a tram, others would like to buy the D train.

 

The 319s cannot achieve the acceleration or point-to-point timings of which the 323s are capable, so 'your' trains are NOT being replaced by older second-hand stock at all.  They are actually being replaced by new EMUs from CAF.  

 

Otherwise Pendolinos will be nudging the 319s' rear ends at places like Wilmslow and Cheadle Hulme  :angel:

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Hi all

 

Anybody seen this?

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-37289466

 

The new space requirements per passenger were smaller than the average person with a bag!

 

I thought the railways were supposed to be improving?

 

Keith

I'm glad I'm retired! Having that experience before and after a day's work just cannot be good.

 

Firms should be encouraged to move out of cities, particularly London. Those in London should be further encouraged to move north for a better lifestyle.

 

Travelling like this cannot be healthy.

 

Regards

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I'm glad I'm retired! Having that experience before and after a day's work just cannot be good.

 

Firms should be encouraged to move out of cities, particularly London. Those in London should be further encouraged to move north for a better lifestyle.

 

Travelling like this cannot be healthy.

The last thing I want is a London exodus turning the rest of the country into that!

 

With an economy that massively pushes for large scale and centralisation I only see things going in the other direction. Smaller scale, more localised, and more widespread sounds good but I can't see how it could happen.

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The 319s cannot achieve the acceleration or point-to-point timings of which the 323s are capable, so 'your' trains are NOT being replaced by older second-hand stock at all.  They are actually being replaced by new EMUs from CAF.  

 

Otherwise Pendolinos will be nudging the 319s' rear ends at places like Wilmslow and Cheadle Hulme  :angel:

319s are not bad across Chat Moss, but from my memories of Thameslink not that good on inner services with frequent stops. Reasonably nippy once you got past Cricklewood but useless around the tunnel section. I remember drivers being told not to stop in certain places in the event of a train having a traction motor out as it was likely that they would be there for some time.

 

Hopefully the CAF units will be in full service before the 323s go off-lease. 

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I know it doesn't fit with your agenda, but there are presently orders for lots of new trains for TPE, Northern and Scotrail, none of which get anywhere near London and the South East.

London Midland has had loads of brand new 350s in the last 10 years. And seemingly will benefit from longer trains once the Northern order of delivered.

What do you want, new trains every 5 years? These things aren't primark jumpers that you use once and throw away rather than wash.

Also an ever increasing fleet of IEPs (or whatever they are called today). Yes they will go to to London, but will spend most of their time oop north or in the West Country. Whether they will be better than what they replace remains to be seen, but they will be shiny and new

Mind you, if you live on the Bed-Pan line you would have had new trains every 9 or so years!

317 1981

319 1987

377 2009/387 2014

700 2016

Edited by Talltim
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I'm sorry but I'm going to have to disagree with you on that statement in my time as a guard based at Coventry which was for 9yrs I found the onboard staff for LM very helpful and more than happy to assist our less abled passengers.

I won't comment on the platform staff though as they can't defend themselves here.

 

It has unfortunately been my experience on a number of occasions. Not every time thankfully, but enough to put me off wanting to travel unless I really need to go by train.

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Unfortunately I have to side with Kelly, most staff are very helpful, but unless you've actually tried to do it, travelling on a train with a wheelchair/scooter is not for the faint-hearted... It's far better than it used to be (Mk1s for instance were useless for disabled people and Mk2s and 3s aren't a great deal better unless they've been heavily modified inside). Then there's the issue of platform height which varies from station to station -  Basingstoke being the worst I know of. Then there's the dreaded Buggy and large suitcases, especially on long distance routes. And that's before you get out of the station and encounter cobbles, lack of drop kerbs (or badly made ones) at road junctions and people who can't see the wheelchair in front of them because they are on their phone...

 

 Personally hate air con, what's wrong with fresh air?

 

Nothing if it's a reasonable temperature... middle of s hot summers day give me aircon any day...

 

 

Many people have mentioned "free" seats not being used even on F&S trains, as a guard who regularly works rush hour trains I'll also confirm I see it regularly... It's a reluctance to sit next to people, or worse, afraid to ask them to move their bag off the seat next to them!

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Those services are being split off? Hadn't noticed that. In some ways Liverpool is a bit out there for the West Midlands, but unless everything is being redrawn it's not immediately apparent which operator would be better placed to take them on.

 

The West Midlands Rail map shows the Trent Valley locals  being specified by the DforT, the Birmingham-Liverpool and Birmingham-Northampton-London services being "jointly specified with the DforT" whilst the rest become West Midlands Rail specified.  Oddly, services out to Tamworth and Burton upon Trent, and to Nuneaton via Coleshill, which in reality ought to form part of West Midlands Rail seeing as Tamworth was an overspill town for Birmingham and Coleshill Parkway is targeted as a park and ride for Birmingham commuters and an interchange for bus links to the Airport, don't even merit a "joint specification with the DforT" and are outside the proposed franchise, which is short sighted.

 

I wouldn't be surprised to see the Northampton line, and the Trent Valley semi fasts become part of a new West Coast franchise, and the Birmingham-Liverpools become either part of WM Rail or even XC.

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The West Midlands Rail map shows the Trent Valley locals  being specified by the DforT, the Birmingham-Liverpool and Birmingham-Northampton-London services being "jointly specified with the DforT" whilst the rest become West Midlands Rail specified.  Oddly, services out to Tamworth and Burton upon Trent, and to Nuneaton via Coleshill, which in reality ought to form part of West Midlands Rail seeing as Tamworth was an overspill town for Birmingham and Coleshill Parkway is targeted as a park and ride for Birmingham commuters and an interchange for bus links to the Airport, don't even merit a "joint specification with the DforT" and are outside the proposed franchise, which is short sighted.

 

I wouldn't be surprised to see the Northampton line, and the Trent Valley semi fasts become part of a new West Coast franchise, and the Birmingham-Liverpools become either part of WM Rail or even XC.

If you have a look at this:

https://westmidlandscombinedauthority.org.uk/about/whos-included/

It will have similar powers to TfL

 

You will see Tamworth and other places are non-constituent members of WMCA and therefore transport to them will be inextricably linked to the West Midlands.

IMHO That makes DfT somewhat short sighted in it's approach.

 

(Interestingly Bromsgrove isn't in any of the groupings but Centro (as it was) included it's station in it's remit)

 

Keith

Edited by melmerby
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GordonC, on 08 Sept 2016 - 10:47, said:GordonC, on 08 Sept 2016 - 10:47, said:

I struggle to see how its acceptable with the way train fares are increasing to take seats out to allow more standing room ... what next? back to cattle trucks tagged on the end of units??

 

I don't see the problem, what's ridiculous is expecting TOCs to operate what are effectively metro systems with heavy rail stock configured for inter-urban routes, watching the passenger numbers more than double in the last twenty years without providing or even planning effectively for that, then slamming them for not getting everybody on. Frankly there are too many seats and not enough gangway.

 

LUL's latest stock has enough seats for the off peak, and enough standing room (well, as much as possible) for the peak. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground_S7_and_S8_Stock#/media/File:LUL-S-Stock-interior-Original-Met-Line-Variant.jpg The same configuration would be ideal on West Yorks, Manchester and West Mids commuter routes whilst still leaving plenty of seats for the twirlies off peak.

 

Or you could just lengthen all the trains and platforms. That's a 1.5 million pounds per vehicle and another 3/4 million for every carriage length's worth of platform extension. £2.25m for an extra 90 seats from just one station. Twenty five thousand pounds per extra seat, per station. 

Edited by Wheatley
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I stand for about that most mornings. It's much easier on a train configured for standing passengers than trying to hold onto a seat back or the edge of a bulkhead on a 156.

Wouldn't it be better to have more room so that more people can sit?

 

Trains can be overcrowded even outside of the peak periods on that route. (Its the only one I am familiar with, others may be as bad or worse.)

No problem with longer trains as 12 cars are quite normal in peaks even if not being used on some of the overcrowded out of peak services.

 

Keith

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Cost, Keith. It would be nice to have seats for everyone, all the time, but to do that you'd have to spend a fortune which would either put up taxes or fares (or both) to pay for it all. And for most of the time that capacity would be rusting away in sidings or going round with no-one on it... Given the amount of moaning already (especially from the commuters on season tickets which ironically are one of the cheapest tickets on sale based on journeys made) I doubt if either would be acceptable, so the DfT has to allow other methods such as removal of seats to increase standing room and banning of bikes on rush hour trains.

 

Also remember that NR charge by the size and type of train so longer trains usually mean more access charges which doesn't encourage longer trains.

Edited by Hobby
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