Dapol Class 22

[Trainshed Terry]

Don;t think that there is any provision in a Hornby Sapphire chip for adding a 'keep alive' capacitor- Its certainly not high frequency drive etc , and I'm not to sure if the feedback circuit used would be up to it.

Personally , there are a lot of other chips that would give far far better results , but if it works for you , fine.

 

I'm guessing its a 'keep alive' capacitor to which you refer.

 

That is correct it is a keep it alive capacitor.

 

Terry

[7013]

Hmm! Had an interesting development with my 22. At low speeds it started intermittently cutting out, no power, and lights went out. I thought it may be dirty track so I took it to my club today and it did the same on spotlessly clean track. I did not know there was a 22 pin board installed and noticed my Sapphire was not bedded properly, cut the pin off as shown by Dapol and showed some improvement, ran it slowly for ages. Took it home cleaned my track thoroughly and it seems OK for now but I am going to monitor it for a bit. I was wondering if this is a loose connection somewhere unfortunately I cannot see the pickups to see if there is a loose connection and i do not want to start probing around. I was also wondering if the Sapphire was struggling a bit to provide enough grunt at low speeds and maybe I should adjust some of the CVs. All my other locos have no problem with the track even before I cleaned it.

[skin_2]

Many thanks to Dave and everyone for the helpful advice about decoders. I've got a Lenz Silver 21 in a Bachmann Class 37 and it works well there. The Bachmann 36-554 gives excellent results with running, it's just the cab light issue. I'll try one of the decoders suggested with more functions - I thought the issue might be something like that. Thanks again everybody.

 

Keith

[RedgateModels]

 

TCS EU621 (6-function) - available from Bromsgrove Models (£22.50), DCC Supplies (£21.58), DCC Train Automation (£21.58)

.

 

Don't forget Ian Morton of this parish www.ianmorton.me.uk - £22.50 - I've just bought some for stock and to chip a Bach 47 that I've been asked to chip up

[D605Eagle]

Hmm! Had an interesting development with my 22. At low speeds it started intermittently cutting out, no power, and lights went out. I thought it may be dirty track so I took it to my club today and it did the same on spotlessly clean track. I did not know there was a 22 pin board installed and noticed my Sapphire was not bedded properly, cut the pin off as shown by Dapol and showed some improvement, ran it slowly for ages. Took it home cleaned my track thoroughly and it seems OK for now but I am going to monitor it for a bit. I was wondering if this is a loose connection somewhere unfortunately I cannot see the pickups to see if there is a loose connection and i do not want to start probing around. I was also wondering if the Sapphire was struggling a bit to provide enough grunt at low speeds and maybe I should adjust some of the CVs. All my other locos have no problem with the track even before I cleaned it.

Interesting...I have a Heljan class 15 that does that, and I've failed to discover whats doing it as of yet. I'll be interested to see if you find what it is.

[Guest baldrick25]

On the class 22 remove the body, and carefully solder a grain of wheat bulb , preferably with a series resistor to protect it, across pins 21 and 22. If, when the loco then stalls or judders , the bulb is still lit then its a 'control' problem ie like a power interuption ( dirty track, faulty track as in points etc, or similar). If the bulb goes out, its most likely a pick up- wheeel-to-track- or power wiring problem, as long as the controller is still working normally ( and not reset due to a short somewhere.) At least it gives a starting point to determine if its a board fault, which is very unlikely, the 21 plug to 21 socket interface being a favourite point to start looking for the problem. Check pin 11 has been chopped or missing , that will stop a lot of decoders seating properly.

 

If you don't have the equipment or experience to solder very fine wires, leave well alone though.

[charliepetty]

If anyone is interested in alternatives to the Bachmann 36-554 3-function 21-pin decoder, which have 4-function outputs or more........

 

Apart from the Hornby Sapphire already mentioned, there are several other 21-pin options including (I've mentioned the minimum number of function outputs to show they have 4 or more)......

 

TCS EU621 (6-function) - available from Bromsgrove Models (£22.50), DCC Supplies (£21.58), DCC Train Automation (£21.58)

Lenz Silver 21+ (5-function) - available from various retailers, inc. Rails of Sheffield (£24.50)

ESU LokPilot V4.0 (4-function) - approx. £28 in the UK - £24 elsewhere in the EU

Zimo MX631D (6-function) £30+ ?

Zimo MX632D (8-function) £30+ ?

 

There are some others from different manufacturers that might be harder to source in the UK.

All of the ones listed are much more expensive than the Bachmann/ESU budget model, but provide better motor control and have a far larger range of CV adjustments.

 

.

The Lenz Silver 21 is £25.54 inc postage from DC Kits Leeds, or cheaper at Wigan this weekend! & St Albans January.

Edited December 9, 2011 by charliepetty

[skin_2]

This is a much-anticipated model and while Dapol has changed the numbers and livery detail several times during the gestation period they are at least trying hard to get things right. That has of course frustrated a number of us and may have caused some mis-communication between parties at times.

 

D6331 / D1000f was listed by Kernow as plain green until the change was announced at which time the revised details were posted. Kernow being a reputable business has now had to contact everyone with a pre-order asking if they wish to change or take the green sywp version. That takes time.

 

Have you actually addressed your concerns to the shop? Can you remember the name of the person you spoke with / signed the email (as appropriate)? I'm sure they would take substantiated feedback seriously but are unlikely to be able to trace someone simply known as Keith or "skin_2"

 

Kernow has advertised a very small number of D6331 recently which have become available as a result of cancelled or changed pre-orders. The remaining stock may well have sold out which is why, with a live stock level cybertill, the item vanishes when the last one is sold. If their allocation had originally sold out on pre-order (which is possible) then later enquiries may have been met with a negative response.

 

Sorry I didn't reply to this sooner. Of course Kernow is a reputable and well respected business, I've bought loads of things from them as I'm sure we all have. We also know that Dapol have gone to huge lengths with numbers and livery details (with new information coming to light at the very last minute) to make sure they didn't release a 'wrong' model. What happened to me was that after Dapol announced that D6331 would in fact be a model with SYE rather than all over green, I looked at Kernow's website and saw the revised details posted there. I didn't want to cancel the pre-order so I didn't do anything at that point. However, a few days on when it looked as though the first consignment was about to be released I had another look at Kernow's web site and saw that D6331 (D1000f) had disppeared from their web site altogether, but this was before the model was released. It was at that point that I called Kernow to ask what was happening with D1000f, thinking that Dapol might have had to make another last minute change which they had notified to retailers but wouldn't have had time to tell the rest of us about, so it was on the basis of what I was told in that call to Kernow before the model was released that I changed my pre-order to one of the other numbers. As you might imagine, I was rather upset then to see that D1000f was the model that was going to be released at Warley and delivered to retailers. However, this all has a happy ending as I saw that Kernow had a few left and so I ordered one of those which I've now got and very nice it is too and looks great with my china clay 'hoodies'. Incidentally, you get a much nicer box with foam protection and stout cardboard from Dapol than Hornby or Bachmann locos have.

Edited December 9, 2011 by skin_2

[Trevor H]

http://www.rmweb.co....__fromsearch__1 Edited March 16, 2012 by Trevor H

[Phil Bullock]

Hi all

 

Have been having a conversation with Ben Jones of Model Rail re their review of the super model of D6331. That states that the loco was stored at OOC from 1969 and then towed to LA for spares recovery - catching fire en route!

 

From evidence D6331 was most definitely not stored after finishing at Newton Abbot in 1968 - she was working off Gloucester after this as allocated to 82A BTM from Jan 69 and got as far north as Worcester and Bromsgrove in this period. If you do a search for D6331 on flikr you'll find a couple of images and the class 22 page on the miac website also has some gen.

 

I saw her working at Abbotswood on 20.6.70 and she was stored at SPM by July 71 following withdrawal in March 71. Does anyone have any other gen on her movements or workings between these dates please. 1971 was class 22 last knockings - was she actually working for the first 3 months of that year?

 

Heres hoping!

 

Cheers

 

Phil

[BoxInfo]

Hi there

 

For headcodes take a look at http://en.wikipedia....eporting_number. However the last two digits are route specific identifying trains on a given route. Studying photos 8.50 and 8.51 look pukka for D6331 and D6320 when they operated in the Gloucester area in the late 60's - early 70s which leads me to believe that these were the codes for the local Gloucester trip workings. For other areas suggest you study photos or better still get hold of a working time table for your area - they are a mine of info!

 

Kind regards

 

Phil Bullock

 

This is incorrect, the last two digits on train numbers are not route specific. On the Southern EMU'S/33's etc carried two digit route codes, eg (on the SW division) 81-83 was Waterloo to Portsmouth line stations via Guildford. The 'route' part of a four character headcode/train number/digit is the letter, 'P' now being Waterloo to Portsmouth via Guildford for example. The last two numbers are the individual train on any given day so the 0730 Waterloo to Portsmouth might be 1P05, the 0830 1P07 etc etc. As most know there are also regional destination letters, eg 'V' is any other region to the Western, 'O' to the Southern and so on. No doub't most of this is 'coals to Newcastle'!!!!

[Gwiwer]

Without wishing to divert too far from the topic at hand let us just bear in mind that as with many things railway the only rule is the exception.

 

4-character headcodes were (and still are, though are not displayed on trains any more) a blend of class, route and train identification. The first digit, 0-9, being the class of train, then a letter indicating variously the region, district or general area of destination but not usually any specific location, then the two numbers which could be an individual train identification number, the only number identifying all trains on a line (usually a branch with one train working) or simply the sequential number of a train in the timetable where a service was frequent. Short "trip" workings often had their own unique identifying number.

 

The SR 2-character system differs somewhat; while all fast trains from Waterloo - Portsmouth Harbour might show 81 as noted above the 4-character identifier might be in the range 1P01 - 1P99 with even numbers normally for up trains and odds for down.

Edited December 10, 2011 by Gwiwer

[Fat Controller]

 

This is incorrect, the last two digits on train numbers are not route specific. On the Southern EMU'S/33's etc carried two digit route codes, eg (on the SW division) 81-83 was Waterloo to Portsmouth line stations via Guildford. The 'route' part of a four character headcode/train number/digit is the letter, 'P' now being Waterloo to Portsmouth via Guildford for example. The last two numbers are the individual train on any given day so the 0730 Waterloo to Portsmouth might be 1P05, the 0830 1P07 etc etc. As most know there are also regional destination letters, eg 'V' is any other region to the Western, 'O' to the Southern and so on. No doub't most of this is 'coals to Newcastle'!!!!

The exception being Class 9 trip workings- elsewhere on the Western, but during the period in question, 9B8x covered the various trips from Llandeilo Junction Yard every day. 9B83 would be the Cynheidre workings, and all carried this identity, with no change to the last two digits, not just for days or weeks, for years. This wasn't confined to the indicator blind on the loco- the WTT columns would be headed in this fashion as well.

[Trevor H]

http://www.rmweb.co....__fromsearch__1 Edited March 16, 2012 by Trevor H

[The Stationmaster]

I think Gwiwer and Fat Controller are getting us in the right direction so let's try to round this off for the Western.

 

As Gwiwer made clear - 1st digit (numeric) is train class (once the new system was established.

 

2nd digit was used in several ways. Some letters were used exclusively to identify trains with a destination on a different Region from that on which they originated or passed through (these letters were originally E, M, N, O, S, V plus X for inter-Regional specials).

Other letters were used on the Western to identify the terminating District (when Districts still existed) or Division within the Region, eventually due to organisational changes there were only three of these, viz A, B, and C but originally they were A, B, C, F, H, J, and T with Z used for specials running within the Region (n.b. the meaning of F, J, H, and T was changed very early on - in the winter service 1960/61).

 

But in addition to that some of the letters were re-used locally in various ways and other letters were also used to form a 3 digit group combined with an individual 2 digit number, e.g. Paddington area pilot engines were coded P and simply carried the number which identified which pilot they were, e.g. 0PO2. Others were used similarly to identify trips and as FC noted some of these lasted for years, e.g on the Cardiff Valleys all our local trips were in the 'C' series - .C79 served Penallta Colliery, and other places for instance, .C89 was a Cwmbargoed trip and so on. But at one time J and T were used to identify trips - again using individual numbers in the last two digits.

 

Which gets us to the last two digits and they worked like this -

Class 1. All trains were individually numbered (and the numbers were re-used if they were exhausted during the day) originally the group 00-99 was allocated.

Class 3 Parcels Trains were also individually numbered using the group 00 to 49

Class 4 to 8 trains were also individually numbered, again using the group 00 - 99.

 

The numbering of Class 2 trains and Class 3 ECS was a bit different in the original arrangement with the two digit numeric indicating the section of route over which the train was running, i.e. the last two numbers were very route specific in the case of these trains. But there was some discrimination in that Class 2 trains which had formerly carried an A headcode were allocated the group 00-49 while the group 50-99 was allocated to former Class B headcode trains and Class 3 ECS. These numbers were re-used in different Divisions or Districts (while the latter lasted) thus, e.g. 2A55, 2C55, and 2H55 all referred to totally different sections of route.

 

A further variation in the use of the two final digits was in respect of light engines as each depot was given a 2 digit number of its own and originally these were used with 0Z to make up a 4 character code but, as far as I can recall the Z was changed tp 'F' when it ceased to be used as a District destination letter.

 

The meaning of X and Z was also changed subsequently with X being generally used for specials and Z being used for trains with some sort of restriction such as loading gauge or axleweight.

 

BUT N.B. - the above detail refers to the Western Region. The classification code (leading numeric) was of course universal but practices in the use of the intra-Regional alpha codes and final two numerics did vary between Regions. And of course it all changed in various ways over the years with the only constant being the leading numeric describing the Class of train.

[Geoff Endacott]

Hi Phil,

 

Makes you wonder where people get this information from sometimes and although without pointing fingers, I see where Ben picked up his info, you shouldn't always believe what you read in black and white.

 

As you say though D6331 was certainly sub-sheded to Gloucester over the period you mention, with sighting of it as far as Bromsgrove on ballast train, my first personal sighting of it was at Horton Road in Dec 68.

 

As its Steve's pet loco, perhaps you should chat with him, he'll probably be able to tell you what the driver had in his sandwiches as well.

 

Some head codes for you, which it carried whilst around Gloucester.

8B51, 6Z39, 9Z37, 8.50 & 8.51

 

Trevor.

D6331 was certainly one of the Gloucester regulars. It even acquired full yellow ends in 1970. I have seen many photos of it in the area from 1968-71, often in the company of D6320 "Lister". The allocation history in Model Rail is wrong.

 

Geoff Endacott

[Phil Bullock]

D6331 was certainly one of the Gloucester regulars. It even acquired full yellow ends in 1970. I have seen many photos of it in the area from 1968-71, often in the company of D6320 "Lister". The allocation history in Model Rail is wrong.

 

Geoff Endacott

 

Thanks Geoff that confirms my thoughts - was hoping we might unearth some more specific sightings too!

 

Kind regards

 

Phil Bullock

[Phil Bullock]

Hi Phil,

 

Makes you wonder where people get this information from sometimes and although without pointing fingers, I see where Ben picked up his info, you shouldn't always believe what you read in black and white.

 

As you say though D6331 was certainly sub-sheded to Gloucester over the period you mention, with sighting of it as far as Bromsgrove on ballast train, my first personal sighting of it was at Horton Road in Dec 68.

 

As its Steve's pet loco, perhaps you should chat with him, he'll probably be able to tell you what the driver had in his sandwiches as well.

 

Some head codes for you, which it carried whilst around Gloucester.

8B51, 6Z39, 9Z37, 8.50 & 8.51

 

Trevor.

 

Cheers Trevor

 

Amazing what we can disprove even at this distance in time. Now we just need to wait for D6320 too ...

 

The Dec 68 sighting is the earliest one yet at 85B - transfer to 82A is listed for 9 week period ending Jan 69 so that fits nicely - would be nice to know when she last worked in the area too.

 

Kind regards

 

Phil

[Geoff Endacott]

Here it is at Gloucester in December 1968 http://www.railphotoprints.co.uk/index/detail/6674/D6331-Gloucester-1268-RPPS519.jpg.html .

 

As for headcodes, I suggest the first character should be a 2 if you want to use your loco on passenger workings or a 6 if you are using it on freight.

 

The second character could be A for locos based in the London area, B for those from Bristol and C for Plymouth. You could also opt for Z if you want to use the loco on unusual workings.

 

The last two characters don't matter as much. One option is to set them to the last two numbers of the loco's identity. Another, for DCC users, is to use them to indicate the chip's address code. However, any two numbers will do.

 

As far as D6331 is concerned, in its Gloucester days, 6B31 or 6Z31 would not look out of place. In the photo above it has 6Z39 which fits in with my theory.

 

Geoff Endacott

[The Stationmaster]

Here it is at Gloucester in December 1968 http://www.railphoto...PPS519.jpg.html .

 

As for headcodes, I suggest the first character should be a 2 if you want to use your loco on passenger workings or a 6 if you are using it on freight.

 

The second character could be A for locos based in the London area, B for those from Bristol and C for Plymouth. You could also opt for Z if you want to use the loco on unusual workings.

 

The last two characters don't matter as much. One option is to set them to the last two numbers of the loco's identity. Another, for DCC users, is to use them to indicate the chip's address code. However, any two numbers will do.

 

As far as D6331 is concerned, in its Gloucester days, 6B31 or 6Z31 would not look out of place. In the photo above it has 6Z39 which fits in with my theory.

 

Geoff Endacott

In some areas, especially after creeping out of the far west, the D63XX were frequently used on freight trip working and for that they should be carrying a Class 9 headcode.

[Geoff Endacott]

In some areas, especially after creeping out of the far west, the D63XX were frequently used on freight trip working and for that they should be carrying a Class 9 headcode.

True, but 6 seems a better "general freight" option than 9. The problem lies in the fact that the headcodes can't readily be changed - but I am working on that.

 

Geoff Endacott

[Phil Bullock]

True, but 6 seems a better "general freight" option than 9. The problem lies in the fact that the headcodes can't readily be changed - but I am working on that.

 

Geoff Endacott

 

Thanks folks - and I guess we should also not forget that the train classes were not a fixed item they did change around this time - and that something in the region of 25% of workings displayed the wrong code.

 

Later pics of this loco operating in the Gloucester area all have her on class 8 workings.

 

Cheers

 

Phil

[2ManySpams]

Those that ventured on to the North Cornwall tended to have 6Cxx codes. Will look up the rest of the numbers in photos...

 

Edit

Mmm, perhaps my memory is playing tricks - found lots of photos of single car and DMUs on the NCR with C2 or 2C62 headcodes. Found a 63xx pulling an engineer's train in 'spring 1966' at Halwill Jct with a 0J25 code and the one tailing has ?Z06.

 

Why can't I find the normal 63xx photos when I want them?

Edited December 11, 2011 by 2ManySpams

[Trevor H]

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/51518-class-22-detail-variation/page__fromsearch__1 Edited February 4, 2012 by Trevor H

[gmax]

Phil,

 

It was still in Gloucester in Sept 70.

 

Over time I have collected a few head codes for my own class 22's which were around Gloucester between 1968-70, which your welcome too:

 

6Z37, 6Z39

8A70

8B10, 8B27, 8B30, 8B47, 8B51, 8B52

8H73

8Z00, 8Z01

8.50, 8.51

9B45, 9B51, 9B52

9Z30, 9Z37, 9Z44 (one of interest for you - D6320 heading North through the Spa)

9.51

9 51

.Z30, .Z61

 

Certainly for the period were looking at, their was a bit of a pattern and workings in the Bristol area seemed to be similar, but with a few more *H** and *C** codes thrown in.

 

Trevor.

2C90 & 2C91 were the codes for Newton Abbot to Kingswear trains which were regular duties in the 1960s

See photo of D6334 in book 1 spotting notes at:

http://www.rail-dvd....ge_2565608.html

 

As for fitting alternatives - I've inserted Heljan class 52 headcodes into my model of D6331 (2C75 & 7B08) and they fit perfectly.

Just tuck them into the corners with a sharp edged tool and they fit beautiifully.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Steve

Edited December 10, 2011 by gmax