Passenger name regulation could destroy cross-border rail

[DavidB-AU]

The European Commission, train operators and passenger representative groups have expressed grave concern over draft legislation introduced into the Belgian parliament on September 19 which could threaten the viability of cross-border passenger trains.

 

Proposed as a reaction to the terrorist attacks in Brussels earlier this year, as well as attacks elsewhere in western Europe, the regulation would extend the airline-style Passenger Name Record requirements to all international trains crossing Belgian borders.

 

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/policy/single-view/view/passenger-name-regulation-could-destroy-cross-border-rail.html

[Nearholmer]

Do they Belgian authorities record the names of refugees that their police officers "accidentally" transport over the border and drop-off in France?

 

Kj

[Fat Controller]

Do they Belgian authorities record the names of refugees that their police officers "accidentally" transport over the border and drop-off in France?

 

Kj

You saw that as well; much amusement with my French colleagues about that.

The Belgians are keen to be seen 'doing something' so have set up control points on the autoroute between Dunkerque and Ostend. Typically, however, most of the minor (and not-so-minor) roads that cross the frontier have no police presence at all.

[TheSignalEngineer]

You saw that as well; much amusement with my French colleagues about that.

The Belgians are keen to be seen 'doing something' so have set up control points on the autoroute between Dunkerque and Ostend. Typically, however, most of the minor (and not-so-minor) roads that cross the frontier have no police presence at all.

Well before the present free movement rules I went on cycling trips in the border area, one crossing repeatedly between France, Belgium, Luxemborg and Germany a total of about 10 times in two days. Never saw any controls, even went from Germany over the river into Luxemborg and back for a beer when we spotted a bar on the other side.

[Fat Controller]

Keep in mind there's a serious rift between Brussels and Paris, where the latter blames the former of not having done enough to prevent the Paris attacks, which had very strong links to radicals in the Brussels area. In turn, Belgium complains that the French didn't tell them that said terrorists where spotted in France and elsewhere, claiming the French secret services should have informed them. Not that it would have made any difference, the various and very numerous Belgian services are more suspicious about each-other then anything going on elsewhere in the world

That I can well imagine; do they have separate, and parallel, Francophone and Flammophone services, along with a single chap who does the German-speaking bit around Bastogne?

[EddieB]

You saw that as well; much amusement with my French colleagues about that.

The Belgians are keen to be seen 'doing something' so have set up control points on the autoroute between Dunkerque and Ostend. Typically, however, most of the minor (and not-so-minor) roads that cross the frontier have no police presence at all.

Exactly.  They just don't appear to get it.  There are now armoured cars parked in front of various "strategic" places around Brussels, but it seems the side doors and back entrances have been left wide open.  The International Platforms at Midi are meant to be segregated from the rest of the station, but it is quite easy to find routes between the two that don't involve passing any security.  Likewise there are security guards "patrolling" (loitering in) the main concourse and middle bits of some platforms, but never the platform ends where some odd characters (not just train spotters) hang out.

 

Still, I guess they have their best agents on the case.

 

[jjb1970]

Belgium is one of those countries where deploying hundreds of troops in a city who mill about in ones and twos looking bored and clock watching until they go off duty is considered to be a splendid way of making the place safe. Whenever there is a big European meeting or summit they lock down the area around Schumann and get the army out and all it seems to do is cause a lot of inconvenience and waste a lot of money that'd be better spent on effective Policing. Perhaps if the Policing was more effective they wouldn't feel it necessary to make such gestures with their army, which few other countries seem to see as being either useful or necessary.

[Chris116]

Does this mean that the EU freedom of movement ideals are being ignored, got rid of or sidestepped? Are they going to check every car on every road as well? Because if they don't all this will achieve will be that terrorists travel by road instead of rail.

[Peter Beckett]

I found it interesting in recently catching a train from Poperinge, West Flanders to Brussels Airport. After leaving the train and going upstairs we encountered an extra checkpoint with metal detectors, etc and long queues. Suddenly the security people opened the barriers and let half the people through then closed it again. We missed out and still had to go through the detectors without removing belts and no checking of hand luggage,only suitcases. Seemed a complete waste of time.

 

Peter

[rockershovel]

Does this mean that the EU freedom of movement ideals are being ignored, got rid of or sidestepped? Are they going to check every car on every road as well? Because if they don't all this will achieve will be that terrorists travel by road instead of rail.

The current governments aren't going to admit anything, under any circumstances, but within the next 20 months there will be elections in France and Germany. All indications are that the various nationalist and anti-integrationist parties will, at the very least, poll their biggest results since 1945.

 

Stand by for major changes.

[Derekstuart]

This does not surprise me.

 

So I understand it was several decades after the fall of the Roman Empire before some members of its hierarchy stopped proposing laws for the Senate in Rome. There were people in Britain referring to the British Empire for many years after that was dissolved.

 

To find the eu proposing more (well meaning but badly thought out and inherently likely to fail) legislation whilst it is, by all benchmarks, collapsing, makes just as much sense.

 

What I find worrying is that whilst more and more people are recognising that the eu is a flawed entity that in the process genuine co-operation and friendship with our European allies is going to be lost. Hopefully one day a new friendly arrangement (similar concept to the Commonwealth perhaps) will emerge from the wreckage of the eu to ensure that we all remain friends.

[rockershovel]

Not just Paris and Berlin, the Dutch are polling too, March next year. There's a strong current of anti-EU and anti-immigration, but it's not dominant enough (yet!) to enforce a "Nexit" vote, although as our political system is based on proportional representation (against the less democratic "winner takes all" system advocated by the US and UK) they will play an important role in the formation of the next Gov't.

There was always a major constitutional crisis heading our way regarding the EU. The British political system and system of governance really isn't compatible with the Maastricht and Lisbon Treaties; I could never understand how the provisions of the latter in particular, were meant to work out and it would seem that I wasn't alone in this.

 

David Cameron was much criticised for having used the Referendum as a party management device, but I never believe that was the whole story. Had he pulled it off, then he would have been approaching the impending crisis on the basis of having a mandate for whatever followed. He would have shot the SNP's fox, because Holyrood/Westminster relations would be much less relevant as political unification progressed. He would also have sidelined Labour, who won't discuss the issue; a Conservative mandate would have stymied them completely.

 

Let's see what transpires. My best guess is that the PRINCIPLE of "free movement" will remain but the PRACTICE of it, will change considerably.

[rockershovel]

This does not surprise me.

 

So I understand it was several decades after the fall of the Roman Empire before some members of its hierarchy stopped proposing laws for the Senate in Rome. There were people in Britain referring to the British Empire for many years after that was dissolved.

 

To find the eu proposing more (well meaning but badly thought out and inherently likely to fail) legislation whilst it is, by all benchmarks, collapsing, makes just as much sense.

 

What I find worrying is that whilst more and more people are recognising that the eu is a flawed entity that in the process genuine co-operation and friendship with our European allies is going to be lost. Hopefully one day a new friendly arrangement (similar concept to the Commonwealth perhaps) will emerge from the wreckage of the eu to ensure that we all remain friends.

Working in the FSU over the past fifteen years or so, has been most instructive, in terms of what actually happens when a political system collapses, and how it reaches that point.

[eastwestdivide]

This does not surprise me.

 

So I understand it was several decades after the fall of the Roman Empire before some members of its hierarchy stopped proposing laws for the Senate in Rome. There were people in Britain referring to the British Empire for many years after that was dissolved.

 

To find the eu proposing more (well meaning but badly thought out and inherently likely to fail) legislation whilst it is, by all benchmarks, collapsing, makes just as much sense.

 

What I find worrying is that whilst more and more people are recognising that the eu is a flawed entity that in the process genuine co-operation and friendship with our European allies is going to be lost. Hopefully one day a new friendly arrangement (similar concept to the Commonwealth perhaps) will emerge from the wreckage of the eu to ensure that we all remain friends.

To be fair here, it seems to be Belgium proposing these measures purely for cross-border Belgiand rail traffic, while the European Commission is saying "don't be stupid" (in slightly more diplomatic terms).

[Derekstuart]

I agree very much with this. British law (and by that I mean English and Welsh mainly) has, very simplistically, been on the basis of "you can do whatever you want unless it has been specifically regulated for a specific purpose"). European law, based upon Napoleonic code which in turn was based upon British MILITARY code is, again put simplistically, "you may not do anything unless it is specifically permitted in law."

Whilst in practice this might have a similar result for most people on most days it does show that the natural state of most European Countries is to legislate by default. If it moves, regulate it and if it does not move then legislate that it must move- and then regulate it. I know that I will probably be opening a can of worms here (is that regulated?) by people who might not quite appreciate the social difference between the two methods, but as Rockershovel shows- it is not a compatible system.

There was always a major constitutional crisis heading our way regarding the EU. The British political system and system of governance really isn't compatible with the Maastricht and Lisbon Treaties; I could never understand how the provisions of the latter in particular, were meant to work out and it would seem that I wasn't alone in this.

 

Let's see what transpires. My best guess is that the PRINCIPLE of "free movement" will remain but the PRACTICE of it, will change considerably.

 

Would you agree that these things usually change at an exponential rate? That is to say it may take decades to go from muttering to all out moaning, 5 years to go to serious moaning, 2 years to turn it to open displays of contempt and then a year to protests on the street and then months to reach violence? Again, it is a very simplistic way to describe it but I think it holds true for most cases, in which case (using Machiavelli's observation- the future is not bright).

Working in the FSU over the past fifteen years or so, has been most instructive, in terms of what actually happens when a political system collapses, and how it reaches that point.

 

The idea that the commission will turn down any idea that gives it more opportunity to regulate something, is an idea that I find hard to believe. Having said that, given the imminent British departure and the likely departure of other Countries shortly perhaps they are coming to realise that their whole ethos is flawed.

To be fair here, it seems to be Belgium proposing these measures purely for cross-border Belgiand rail traffic, while the European Commission is saying "don't be stupid" (in slightly more diplomatic terms).

[jjb1970]

I found it interesting in recently catching a train from Poperinge, West Flanders to Brussels Airport. After leaving the train and going upstairs we encountered an extra checkpoint with metal detectors, etc and long queues. Suddenly the security people opened the barriers and let half the people through then closed it again. We missed out and still had to go through the detectors without removing belts and no checking of hand luggage,only suitcases. Seemed a complete waste of time.

 

Peter

I've also seen this type of scenario in Belgium. I assume their logic is that the very fact they're doing checks will act as a deterrent but it does make a bit of a mockery of the process and does feel like they're doing gesture security to just make it look like they're doing something.

[Coryton]

I've also seen this type of scenario in Belgium. I assume their logic is that the very fact they're doing checks will act as a deterrent but it does make a bit of a mockery of the process and does feel like they're doing gesture security to just make it look like they're doing something.

 

One day somebody might be able to explain to me the logic that Eurostar passengers from the UK to France have to all go through airline style security and UK and French passport checks before getting near a train, but it's possible to drive onto the car shuttle without leaving the car for any kind of security check or showing a passport at any point.

[Derekstuart]

The same reason that at Dover they make coach passengers get off and walk through the metal detector and then never bother looking on the coach or in the lockers and so on. Could easily have something very nasty hidden in there.

 

Or how when I come across to Dover in the middle of the night, I have the only British registered car- taxed, insured, MOT'd et- and I am the only one who gets stopped. That's happened several times now, but didn't when I came over in one of our French cars.

One day somebody might be able to explain to me the logic that Eurostar passengers from the UK to France have to all go through airline style security and UK and French passport checks before getting near a train, but it's possible to drive onto the car shuttle without leaving the car for any kind of security check or showing a passport at any point.

[rockershovel]

I've long since, abandoned any attempt to understand the workings of French bureacracy.

[Gwiwer]

 

Let's see what transpires. My best guess is that the PRINCIPLE of "free movement" will remain but the PRACTICE of it, will change considerably.

 

 

Many of us already carry photo-ID driver's licences which act in many instances as our proof of identity.  If a return were made to the carrying of ID when transiting borders within the EU then the degree of difficulty and the extent of inconvenience would be small for most passengers.  For those too young or otherwise not carrying driving licences at least some would be ID'd by passport or other existing document.  

 

The principle of free movement would remain but there may, quite reasonably, be checks made.

[jjb1970]

I think the EU has invested too much political capital in free movement of people to abandon the idea however as has been pointed out free movement is not incompatible with id checks. I think the current migrant crises is a more severe test for Europe than brexit. I think that some East European leaders are genuinely oblivious to the contradiction in their position of demanding free movement to the UK post brexit whilst refusing to take migrants in order to preserve white catholic culture in their countries. I remain a remain supporter but Europe's response to the migrant crises has been dreadful.

[Derekstuart]

Gwiwer, I think you mis-understand the issue of 'free movement' in the eu and Britain.

 

It isn't about whether or not you have to show ID. Though again Britain has always resisted the compulsory carrying of ID cards.

 

What IS the issue is that Countries that are dominions of the eu have no right of refusal of entry to anyone else with a passport issued by any other eu territory. The British demand for this practice does not mean that we will stop letting in people from Europe and those here (ie in Britain/Europe not this forum) who are claiming that are talking nonsense, The demand is that we have the RIGHT to do so if and when we need it.

 

There's a big difference.

[Bernard Lamb]

One day somebody might be able to explain to me the logic that Eurostar passengers from the UK to France have to all go through airline style security and UK and French passport checks before getting near a train, but it's possible to drive onto the car shuttle without leaving the car for any kind of security check or showing a passport at any point.

When did you last do that?

Very rigorous checks at the UK end these days and the policy of submitting details in advance has been in place for some time.

You can save the details so no need to re enter them each time you use the service.

Bernard

[Coryton]

When did you last do that?

Very rigorous checks at the UK end these days and the policy of submitting details in advance has been in place for some time.

You can save the details so no need to re enter them each time you use the service.

Bernard

 

2013. Maybe my memory is at fault that I didn't show my passport at all at in the UK, but I'm sure there was no need for advance information and if there was a check it certainly wasn't rigorous.

 

Anyway my point about security still holds - airline security for "foot passengers" and not even a cursory peek in the boot for cars.

[rockershovel]

I think the EU has invested too much political capital in free movement of people to abandon the idea however as has been pointed out free movement is not incompatible with id checks. I think the current migrant crises is a more severe test for Europe than brexit. I think that some East European leaders are genuinely oblivious to the contradiction in their position of demanding free movement to the UK post brexit whilst refusing to take migrants in order to preserve white catholic culture in their countries. I remain a remain supporter but Europe's response to the migrant crises has been dreadful.

oh, that's the easy one. Poland doesn't regard Germany as a friend or ally in any shape or form, and there's no reason they should. They DO regard Germany as the driving force controlling the funds which they need, though; Poland is the biggest single beneficiary of the EU by a considerable margin. Likewise they have no interest whatsoever in importing mass populations of aliens; they went through that under the Soviets and don't intend to do it again.

 

Their position is wholly logical and consistent, once you stop regarding them as supporting the ideological project driven from Berlin and Brussels. Berlin drove a very hard bargain, when they were bankrupt and in political disarray, in which large sections of their infrastructure passed under the control of the ECB or Goldman Sachs, and they want their returns on that bargain.

 

This is another thing against David Cameron, by the way - HMG was very active in pressing for A8 accession, yet seems to have left Berlin to reap the benefits.

 

 

 

Regarding the "refugee crisis", the thing I find deeply alarming about the whole issue is the uncontrolled population growth in Asia and Sub Saharan Africa. This is the REAL driver of the whole catastrophe and I fully expect that a demographic disaster of Biblical proportions in those regions cannot be far away.