Worst model locomotive.

[Nearholmer]

Brian and Grifone

 

My criticism of certain Hornby 0 things isn't based on whether or not they had prototypes, or what children perceive, but on the simple matter of proportions. Like the thing under discussion here, they are ill-proportioned, in a way that the equally freelance No2 4-4-0 and tank weren't; they were good-looking locos.

 

K

[RJS1977]

Were they all that cheap though? Looking at old magazines a lot of the models from the 1950s and 60s seem to be very expensive.

 

 

I remember seeing cabinets of Wrenn models and they were extortionate compared to the super detailed Mainline and Airfix models in the next cabinet. I think they were about four or five times the price. I suppose that was the start of the cheaper models from the Far East era. This was the late 1970s/early 1980s when I was a child. Even then I knew what I wanted and it wasn't the more expensive models, even if I could afford them. Or rather my parents could afford them as presents. Even the Lima models that get a lot of stick seemed better.

 

 

Jason

 

Sorry, being brought up on Margate models (and Lima), I hadn't really considered HD/Wrenn. The Triang models were a lot cheaper than the Binns Road products, partly due to the use of plastic, partly due to using the same chassis under different locos (personally I can live with a couple of mm discrepancy in wheelbase if the model captures the character of the prototype), and partly due to the economies of scale in being aimed at a larger market than just those who could afford HD.

[Coppercap]

In the 9th edition of Ramsay's Catalogue the authors have valued the Graham Farish 2-6-4Ts on page 337 at between £40 and £55 and the Lima 2-6-4T on page 451 at between £25 and £40. The Graham Farish model looks and runs better so it is better value for money.

See post #4....

[sagaguy]

The thing to remember is that HD/Wrenn & Hornby 0 gauge locos will still be running in 50 years time,modern Hornby probably won`t be with a few exceptions.They were designed as a toy,no pretensions to fine scale.I remember seeing Wrenn N in the late 60s,early 70s & i bought one of the Lima 4fs,load of rubbish but there wasn`t much N around then,i still have a Wrenn/Lima Cl.81 which would be a good looking model if it didn`t tower above Lima coaches,The toolmakers must have had peculiar measuring sticks.At the moment,i have a HD 3 rail layout & some of my locos are my originals from the 1950s & still run very well.

 

                         Ray.

[Il Grifone]

Hornby (640x480).jpg

 

The number is actually that of an Atlantic tank, though the resemblance is somewhat tenuous.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GWR_2221_Class

 

 

Hornby weren't alone at the time using mains to power their trains. It wasn't quite as lethal as it seems, as a lamp bulb was used as a dropper (not that this was safe!)

 

Ramsey's guide is based on actual auction prices (or so it's claimed), but the prices relate to mint examples (few and far between!)

 

The nearest equivalent to vintage stock are Hornby's 'Railroad' offerings. Some are still the same thing at rather a higher price, despite being made in China rather than Margate.

[Nearholmer]

There was a cracking article in the HRCA journal analysing the detail of why the mains powered trains were truly deadly, with Hornby's first iteration especially so. The real issue is that the full supply voltage is exposed when the circuit is open, as with no train on the track, but the controller turned on. Apparently they were deadly enough to prompt the equivalent of the home office to ask that they be taken off the market.

 

K

[Il Grifone]

Brian and Grifone

 

My criticism of certain Hornby 0 things isn't based on whether or not they had prototypes, or what children perceive, but on the simple matter of proportions. Like the thing under discussion here, they are ill-proportioned, in a way that the equally freelance No2 4-4-0 and tank weren't; they were good-looking locos.

 

K

 

I quite agree they are awful. I would have been most upset as a child to have received a 4-4-2 'Castle' !

 

Talking of proportions, Woolworths sold a particularly weird 'Britannia' (made by Brimtoy?). Coloured bright red and made of stamped tinplate with printed wheels and motion hiding a four wheel clockwork mechanism. Devoid of tender she sold for the princely sum of 7 1/2d IIRC. A toy of course, so it doesn't really count.

 

Here is Bing's version of the GWR Birdcage (scroll down the page) - nearer to Hornby's effort than to the prototype. (There's also a LSWR 'stork legs'.)

 

http://www.tcawestern.org/bing.htm

Edited October 5, 2016 by Il Grifone

[Il Grifone]

There was a cracking article in the HRCA journal analysing the detail of why the mains powered trains were truly deadly, with Hornby's first iteration especially so. The real issue is that the full supply voltage is exposed when the circuit is open, as with no train on the track, but the controller turned on. Apparently they were deadly enough to prompt the equivalent of the home office to ask that they be taken off the market.

 

K

 

True they were potentially deadly and Hornby were 'requested' to remove the offending articles from the market. However this was not until the late twenties and they had been on sale since before the first world war (not Hornby's obviously), so they were obviously in no hurry.

The problem was the existance of DC mains (Thank you Mr. Edison!) which required the use of an expensive rotary converter and various mains voltages. This dreadful bodge must have seemed an economical solution. It was obviously considered sufficient to stress in the instructions to turn the power off before touching the train. Let's not forget that wood was considered a perfectly good insulator for mains voltage at the time....

 

Here's an advertisement for the beast. (Note it states, "There are no dangers......."!) The flex plugged into the light fitting was normal practice at the time and for decades afterwards (my mother plugged in her iron like this in the fifties!). The flex would have been rubber insulated and cotton sheathed - a shock and fire hazard.

 

http://www.brightontoymuseum.co.uk/w/images/The_Hornby_Electric_Train_(MM_1925-12).jpg

 

The train itself does not operate at 110 volts (see EDIT), as the voltage is dropped by the bulb. However the possibility of the track being live at this voltage is real, especially if the two pin plug is inserted the wrong way round.

 

EDIT

 

Trying to find out what the operating voltage is seems difficult. The Hornby 'bible' merely states "lots of volts left over", which is undoubedly the case. The resistance of a light bulb varies dramatically with applied voltage from low when cold to high when hot and the question is complicated by no mention being made of the wattage of the bulb (just that the rated voltage should match that of the mains) and also there are four selectable series resistances (to vary the speed) and also the loco and carriage lighting can be switched on and off. All of these factors will affect the voltage across the track, which has a 50% chance of being at full mains voltage above earth in any case.

Edited October 5, 2016 by Il Grifone

[Nearholmer]

I thought that bottom-end tin toys were excluded, but if they're not, then how about this Bulleid Pacific? I think it is Chad Valley.

 

They really are in a different class though, and certainly never aimed at The Modeller.

 

K

[Enterprisingwestern]

I thought that bottom-end tin toys were excluded, but if they're not, then how about this Bulleid Pacific? I think it is Chad Valley.

 

They really are in a different class though, and certainly never aimed at The Modeller.

 

K

 

It can't be such a bad model if you can identify it?

 

Mike.

[russ p]

True they were potentially deadly and Hornby were 'requested' to remove the offending articles from the market. However this was not until the late twenties and they had been on sale since before the first world war (not Hornby's obviously), so they were obviously in no hurry.

The problem was the existance of DC mains (Thank you Mr. Edison!) which required the use of an expensive rotary converter and various mains voltages. This dreadful bodge must have seemed an economical solution. It was obviously considered sufficient to stress in the instructions to turn the power off before touching the train. Let's not forget that wood was considered a perfectly good insulator for mains voltage at the time....

 

Here's an advertisement for the beast. (Note it states, "There are no dangers......."!) The flex plugged into the light fitting was normal practice at the time and for decades afterwards (my mother plugged in her iron like this in the fifties!). The flex would have been rubber insulated and cotton sheathed - a shock and fire hazard.

 

http://www.brightontoymuseum.co.uk/w/images/The_Hornby_Electric_Train_(MM_1925-12).jpg

 

The train itself does not operate at 110 volts (see EDIT), as the voltage is dropped by the bulb. However the possibility of the track being live at this voltage is real, especially if the two pin plug is inserted the wrong way round.

 

EDIT

 

Trying to find out what the operating voltage is seems difficult. The Hornby 'bible' merely states "lots of volts left over", which is undoubedly the case. The resistance of a light bulb varies dramatically with applied voltage from low when cold to high when hot and the question is complicated by no mention being made of the wattage of the bulb (just that the rated voltage should match that of the mains) and also there are four selectable series resistances (to vary the speed) and also the loco and carriage lighting can be switched on and off. All of these factors will affect the voltage across the track, which has a 50% chance of being at full mains voltage above earth in any case.

Obviously the best time to play with this would be after getting out of the bath and not getting dried! Then have a good night's sleep in a bed with asbestos blankets , oh the joys of living safely!

[Coppercap]

I thought that bottom-end tin toys were excluded, but if they're not, then how about this Bulleid Pacific? I think it is Chad Valley.

They really are in a different class though, and certainly never aimed at The Modeller.

K

Its got a lot of printed detail and evens has more realistic looking buffers than those on that Playcraft diesel thing. Edited October 5, 2016 by Coppercap

[RJS1977]

The thing to remember is that HD/Wrenn & Hornby 0 gauge locos will still be running in 50 years time,modern Hornby probably won`t be with a few exceptions.They were designed as a toy,no pretensions to fine scale.I remember seeing Wrenn N in the late 60s,early 70s & i bought one of the Lima 4fs,load of rubbish but there wasn`t much N around then,i still have a Wrenn/Lima Cl.81 which would be a good looking model if it didn`t tower above Lima coaches,The toolmakers must have had peculiar measuring sticks.At the moment,i have a HD 3 rail layout & some of my locos are my originals from the 1950s & still run very well.

 

                         Ray.

 

I've no doubt that Triang locos could still be theoretically still running in 50 years' time (barring catastrophic accidents etc). The only question mark to my mind being the availability of the brushes (which probably applies equally to HD locos too). On the other hand, the issues with Mazak rot in Hornby Class 31s are well known, and I have a Hornby Pannier tank which according to the service sheet needs an entire new motor after every 100 hours' running!

[Phil Traxson]

I thought that bottom-end tin toys were excluded, but if they're not, then how about this Bulleid Pacific? I think it is Chad Valley.

 

They really are in a different class though, and certainly never aimed at The Modeller.

 

K

I had one of those as my first trainset, battery powered by two U2 batteries in the boiler. It lasted nearly 6 months before the motor let the smoke out. Give them their due it was returned as faulty and was replaced by one that lasted nearly twice as long, at which point Dad gave up and bought me an equally awful looking clockwork loco.

 

Phil T.

[DavidB-AU]

I see your 4MT and raise you:

1) The original Minitrix 9F, a Britannia body on a Continental 2-10-0 chassis; and

2) The original Mehano SD45 made in 1969 with just 2 powered axles out of 6.

 

Cheers

David

[Titan]

2) The original Mehano SD45 made in 1969 with just 2 powered axles out of 6.

 

Cheers

David

 

I see your SD45 and raise you a Jouef Class 40. Very squashed looking and 2 powered axles out of eight...

[sncf231e]

 

 

Trying to find out what the operating voltage is seems difficult. The Hornby 'bible' merely states "lots of volts left over", which is undoubedly the case. The resistance of a light bulb varies dramatically with applied voltage from low when cold to high when hot and the question is complicated by no mention being made of the wattage of the bulb (just that the rated voltage should match that of the mains) and also there are four selectable series resistances (to vary the speed) and also the loco and carriage lighting can be switched on and off. All of these factors will affect the voltage across the track, which has a 50% chance of being at full mains voltage above earth in any case.

I do not have a Hornby High voltage loco but do have a Märklin High voltage (Starkstrom). I tried it with the lamp controller and directly with a variac. It needed about 50 Volts from the Variac.

With the lamp controller: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAzrdx_uFgI

With the Variac: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uk7_c_kNDr8

 

Regards

Fred

[Dunsignalling]

I thought that bottom-end tin toys were excluded, but if they're not, then how about this Bulleid Pacific? I think it is Chad Valley.

 

They really are in a different class though, and certainly never aimed at The Modeller.

 

K

It's a bit fuzzy but doesn't the lettering on the tender read "METTOY RAILWAYS"?

 

John

[PatB]

According to an article in an old G0G Gazette, mains powered models render pickup problems on garden railways a thing of the past.

 

Well worth a few barbequed small children IMHO .

[Coppercap]

It's a bit fuzzy but doesn't the lettering on the tender read "METTOY RAILWAYS"?

 

John

And it looks very much like a Collett 4000 gallon tender too!

[Horsetan]

 

I .... raise you:

....2) The original Mehano SD45 made in 1969 with just 2 powered axles out of 6.

 

I see your SD45 and raise you a Jouef Class 40. Very squashed looking and 2 powered axles out of eight...

 

If we're talking about worst example of underpowering, there is a more recent example of the genre, and I'll call (it's probably not enough for a "raise") the Bachmann-Liliput SBB Ae4/7, which has two driven axles out of four in a very heavy body and underframe. It's even worse if you have the twin-pack, as the second Ae4/7 is an unpowered "dummy" which is almost as heavy. Imagine running that pair double-headed.......

[BernardTPM]

Certainly ugly, the Lima 4MT shared a chassis with their Swedish  and American 2-6-4Ts.

There was a fourth model on this chassis - a German 2-6-4T. They certainly got their money's worth from the mechanism!

[Dunsignalling]

And it looks very much like a Collett 4000 gallon tender too!

Not much different from BR hanging LMS ones on Bulleid Pacifics in 1948.

[Vistisen]

I thought that bottom-end tin toys were excluded, but if they're not, then how about this Bulleid Pacific? I think it is Chad Valley.

 

They really are in a different class though, and certainly never aimed at The Modeller.

 

K

Now that really is 'unrebuilt'

[Il Grifone]

Obviously the best time to play with this would be after getting out of the bath and not getting dried! Then have a good night's sleep in a bed with asbestos blankets , oh the joys of living safely!

 

Asbestos was a very common material at the time this horror was released. This despite its dangers being known - I've seen a document dated 1910 concerning its toxicity (can't remember where!   ).

Edited October 7, 2016 by Il Grifone