Ex-GWR Mica meat vans

[Captain Kernow]

I believe that the ex-GWR Mica meat vans survived into BR days in traffic, but what livery did they carry after nationalisation, please? Was it bauxite?

 

Thanks.

[Adam]

I believe that the ex-GWR Mica meat vans survived into BR days in traffic, but what livery did they carry after nationalisation, please? Was it bauxite?

 

Thanks.

 

This is one of those frustrating questions becuase I can't recall the answer but know I've seen the photo. Was there a photo in Geoff Kent's 4mm Wagon (vol 2)? Failing that, I'm fairly sure there was a prototype shot in MRJ 164 (builds of the Parkside 7mm kit by Gerry Beale). Failing that, if you can see any paint on this one...

 

HTH

 

Adam

[Captain Kernow]

This is one of those frustrating questions becuase I can't recall the answer but know I've seen the photo. Was there a photo in Geoff Kent's 4mm Wagon (vol 2)? Failing that, I'm fairly sure there was a prototype shot in MRJ 164 (builds of the Parkside 7mm kit by Gerry Beale).

 

HTH

 

Adam

Thanks Adam - I've got both those sources, so I'll have a look later.

[Pennine MC]

I'm sure some were white, I once used an early Dave Larkin shot (incorrectly credited to me) in something for BRM. There were several diagrams though, and some (possibly those classed as Tevan) could have been bauxite

[Captain Kernow]

I'm sure some were white, I once used an early Dave Larkin shot (incorrectly credited to me) in something for BRM. There were several diagrams though, and some (possibly those classed as Tevan) could have been bauxite

Thanks Ian, the sources mentioned by Adam support both theories, as there are definitely white examples, although the Tevan variant seems to be a kind of 'light Bauxite' shade (although the photo is B/W, so it could just be faded Bauxite)...

[Barry Ten]

I'm sure some were white, I once used an early Dave Larkin shot (incorrectly credited to me) in something for BRM. There were several diagrams though, and some (possibly those classed as Tevan) could have been bauxite

 

The instructions for the Parkside 7mm Mica (diag X9) certainly say white for the body in BR livery, although this obviously counts as a "secondary source"...

[Il Grifone]

For what it's worth the HD MICA B was white (some were pale cream/off white). This should be correct as BR insulated van livery (50s - later ice blue). As for MICA As, I don't know, though possibly crimson like BR ventilated meat vans (cf Airfix) later bauxite I believe. I'll consult my copy of 'BR Wagons in Colour'.

[Pennine MC]

...white.. should be correct as BR insulated van livery (50s - later ice blue). As for MICA As, I don't know, though possibly crimson like BR ventilated meat vans (cf Airfix) later bauxite I Believe.

 

I think this is another factor, isnt it - that whilst all Micas were meat vans, not all were insulated?

[bubbles2]

If you're talking about the HD/Wrenn Mica, take a look at Western steam in Devon and Cornwall by Michael Welch and published by Capital Transport. Page 113 has a picture of a white Mica in St Erth goods yard in September 1960, this has prompted me to get my old HD one out and look at building a replacement chassis out of spare Parkside bits. Just wish I could get my head around which ones had 2 roof hatches and which had 4, or when/if they were changed?

[Pennine MC]

The problem as I understand it is that the H/D wagon is a hybrid - no Micas had that combination of 17ft 6 underframe/10ft wheelbase and ice boxes. So you either need to chop off the boxes or cut and shut the body onto a shorter underframe. Brian Huxley? did an article (one of a very good series on GW wagons) in the Modeller in the late 70s/early 80s, from which I gleaned this info

[Barry Ten]

The problem as I understand it is that the H/D wagon is a hybrid - no Micas had that combination of 17ft 6 underframe/10ft wheelbase and ice boxes. So you either need to chop off the boxes or cut and shut the body onto a shorter underframe. Brian Huxley? did an article (one of a very good series on GW wagons) in the Modeller in the late 70s/early 80s, from which I gleaned this info

 

Next you'll be telling us they didn't have pictures of Eskimos on the side, Ian...

 

I have a Wrenn example of the latter; one of my oldest models in fact. I'd been wondering about the feasibility of an underframe swap. My only running 4mm Mica is a Geen kit.

[Kenton]

I think this is another factor, isnt it - that whilst all Micas were meat vans, not all were insulated?

 

Examples of all three of the MICA vans (MICA (no code letter) MICA A and MICA B ) survived into BR use.

 

The original MICA (no code letter) both the early X1 diagram and the later built 10 vehicles under Lot 429 planned as diag X2 were all painted in GWR grey

 

The diagram numbers and codes are very confusing for the MICA vans. The MICA A were never actually given a diagram.

 

The demand for meat traffic increased during WWI and the picture became even more confused by the conversion of 300 V16 - these became known as "goods" MICA A and were given the diagram X6. But these did not survive into BR as MICA all being converted back to either covered goods V16 or banana vans Y4.

 

Several of the MICA B were converted to TEVANS in 1938.

 

During WW2 many of the MICA A were provided with slings for dry ice bags - technically becoming MICA B

 

The most important thing to note is that the code MICA did not survive into BR. The ventilated vans (MICA and MICA A (some diag) became coded as MEAT, The MICA B and the rest of the MICA A were given the new code INS and were distinguished by the words VENT-INSUL-MEAT and INSUL-MEAT resp. I have seen nothing to suggest that while they continued in use as such they remained white (typically dirty weathered white). However the original MICA (no code letter) almost certainly just became bauxite with the rest of "goods" vans.

 

 

There is a pretty good description in the bible (Atkins, Beard et al)

[37079]

There is a picture of W105820 which was an X9 (17'6'' underframe) diagram X9 meat van converted to a diagram V32 Tevan in Cheona British Railways Vans (volume 2). The caption states it was photographed in the early 1950s and it is clearly white.

 

The HD moulding is, as stated, a work of fiction (essentially a stretched X7/X8), although that said it is passable for it's vintage and is suitable for conversion.

 

Diagram X9 vans were the only ones built on 17'6'' underframe - the basic differences compared to the HD version may be summarised as:

- two dry ice hatches located centrally on the roof at either end as opposed to 4 ice tank hatches.

- no end ventilators.

- single set of steps and handrails at each end (right-hand only when viewing the vehicle end on).

- some but not all were converted to Tevans by the GWR and lost the hatches and handrails but not, in the case of W105820, the steps.

The best propriety underframe in my opinion for these vans is the Ratio 10ft wb verson.

 

To convert to an X7 or X8 which were on a 16' underframe, the body moulding needs around 4mm in length removing which can be taken from either side of the doors. Both had 10ft wb (X7 with DCIII brake and X8 with Morton brake) so again the ratio underframe is a reasonable starting point.

 

Hope this is helpful,

 

Mike

[Il Grifone]

One mustn't be too harsh on Dublo. Wagons on the wrong length underframe survive today!

 

It isn't too difficult to remedy (it can't be - I've done it!). Cut out the sides and shorten by two millimetres in each of the end panels. (If you have the Wrenn GW livery version, removal from the ends leaves the lettering untouched! ) then cut 4mm out of the roof and reassemble. Next fit on a 10' wb u/f (eg Ratio though the axleboxes are the wrong shape (been replaced with RCH type?) and have some strange markings 'SR' on them.

A little more work will make a MICA A - remove handrails, ice boxes and end steps.

[chertsey chopper]

Having sold my only cream/off-white GW (in red)example of a Mica van by Wrenn, I'm a little confused as to why some mica vans might have been painted bauxite in their later BR days? My limited understanding of BR wagons liveries was that generally un-fitted wagons weren't in bauxite but in grey for most types of box-vans, some exceptions in meat vans being white and then later light blue(but it doesn't say when the colour changes took place) so does this mean that mica vans were later fitted with vacuum brakes?

I've got to the section on meat vans in Chapter5 of British Railways Wagons by Don Rowland and the mica isn't mentioned, only 'insulated' and 'ventilated' types and what colours they were. They were in passenger livery at first, then white, then later light blue, some later being used as tea vans.

Some of you have been kind enough to include your reference sources, but which books are still in print and available?

I obviously need more knowledge on this subject but I'm now wondering whether our manufacturers limit the types of wagons in production deliberately because there are so many variations and types they couldn't possibly cover?

Having looked through just this book, I could come up with at least half a dozen or so wagons I would happily buy if the RTR or kit manufacturers made them.

 

jules

[Fat Controller]

Having sold my only cream/off-white GW (in red)example of a Mica van by Wrenn, I'm a little confused as to why some mica vans might have been painted bauxite in their later BR days? My limited understanding of BR wagons liveries was that generally un-fitted wagons weren't in bauxite but in grey for most types of box-vans, some exceptions in meat vans being white and then later light blue(but it doesn't say when the colour changes took place) so does this mean that mica vans were later fitted with vacuum brakes?

I've got to the section on meat vans in Chapter5 of British Railways Wagons by Don Rowland and the mica isn't mentioned, only 'insulated' and 'ventilated' types and what colours they were. They were in passenger livery at first, then white, then later light blue, some later being used as tea vans.

Some of you have been kind enough to include your reference sources, but which books are still in print and available?

I obviously need more knowledge on this subject but I'm now wondering whether our manufacturers limit the types of wagons in production deliberately because there are so many variations and types they couldn't possibly cover?

Having looked through just this book, I could come up with at least half a dozen or so wagons I would happily buy if the RTR or kit manufacturers made them.

 

jules

The MICAs wouldn't have been covered in Rowland, as the book only covered vehicles built in BR days. If there were MICAs painted in bauxite in BR days, it would have been because they were no longer used as insulated or meat carrying vehicles- some of the BR-built louvred meat vans carried bauxite in their latter days for this reason, as did some 'Insulfishes'. I think, and will check, that there is a photo of a non-white MICA (possibly a TEVAN) in 'Freight Wagons of the Great Western and Western Region- their loads and loading'

[Kenton]

I've got to the section on meat vans in Chapter5 of British Railways Wagons by Don Rowland and the mica isn't mentioned, only 'insulated' and 'ventilated' types and what colours they were.

if you read my previous post the explanation is perfectly clear.

MICA (none of the types) were called MICA in BR days. All of MICA B and most of the MICA A had the new code INS (and variants of it) None of the MICA (no code letter) were ever white, they were all grey in GWR days. Many of them - possibly most of the MICA B and A were fitted, so any conversion to "goods" use would have been painted bauxite.

 

As also stated above the diagramming of these was a mess and as with many GWR stock out of dated sequence. As the traffic in meat varied considerably from the turn of the century until end of life so did their conversion for other use.

[chertsey chopper]

Thanks Kenton, It's a bit clearer now. In the earlier thread your last line reads about a "bible"...could you recommend a good source of written matter on wagons built before BR days since as was pointed out, Rowland's only covers wagon construction from BR days onward.

A few pointers as to what's still in print would also help please.

As for the Wrenn van, was it a reasonable representation, and has it been made in RTR or kit form by any other manufacturers?

Lastly, if so is there one produced now?

 

jules

[Kenton]

The 'bible' for GWR vans is "A History of GWR Goods Wagons" by Atkins, Beard, Hyde and Tourret. It is available in several forms / editions. All out of print (sadly) and the biggest combined edition changes hands for over £100 - such is the depth of information, photos and drawings in it. The smaller volumes (Vol 2) is the best, can still change hands for around £30

 

I'm not familiar with the Wrenn van - I think I have seen one but sometime in the distant past.

 

I did a 7mm build of the MICA B X9 brass kit and put some of it and some supporting notes up on RMWeb a while back (at least RMWeb3) but can't find a link to it at the moment - it also had some photos of the preserved MICA B at Didcot.

[JZ]

The 'bible' for GWR vans is "A History of GWR Goods Wagons" by Atkins, Beard, Hyde and Tourret. It is available in several forms / editions. All out of print (sadly) and the biggest combined edition changes hands for over £100 - such is the depth of information, photos and drawings in it. The smaller volumes (Vol 2) is the best, can still change hands for around £30

 

 

 

There is but one listed on Amazon. £215

[Kenton]

There is but one listed on Amazon. £215

 

That's just inflation and opportunism.

It is long overdue for the publishers to do a new edition/reprint and make some money for themselves.

 

Of course the other good book (but nowhere near as good on detail) is Russell's A Pictorial Record of Great Western Wagons. A good introduction and much more available (and cheaper) but not a touch IMO = his description of the MICA types is a bit "thin" missing out on all the variants and indeed incomplete on the TEVAN conversions.

[buffalo]

There is but one listed on Amazon. £215

 

Don't despair, the Amazon lists often include one or two of this and other sought-after volumes at ludicrous prices. If you keep looking, however, some will often turn up at much more reasonable prices. I bought my combined edition less than two years ago via the Amazon marketplace and paid about £35 for it, IIRC.

 

Nick

[Pennine MC]

 

As for the Wrenn van, was it a reasonable representation, and has it been made in RTR or kit form by any other manufacturers?

 

 

It catches the general shape and character, subject to the overlength already mentioned; it's probably better than the average ex-HD 'Super Detail' wagon (many of which are not as faithful to the prototype as is often supposed)

 

As for kits, I think David Geen does one?

[Kenton]

As for kits, I think David Geen does one?

Spot on - I'd forgotten about those - http://www.davidgeen.co.uk/catalogue/gwr.htm 3 different varieties

[gwrrob]

The 'bible' for GWR vans is "A History of GWR Goods Wagons" by Atkins, Beard, Hyde and Tourret. It is available in several forms / editions. All out of print (sadly) and the biggest combined edition changes hands for over £100 - such is the depth of information, photos and drawings in it. The smaller volumes (Vol 2) is the best, can still change hands for around £30

 

Theres one been listed on ebay today with a starting price of £110.