iPhone Speakers

[legomanbiffo]

The optimum load for a Loksound v4 is 4 ohms (by optimum I mean the value it was designed for, the value that will give you the best transfer of energy to the speaker, and hence the highest volume). Do not go lower than 4 ohm (eg two 4 ohm in parallel) or you will overload and possibly blow the chip. Going above that (8 ohm, 23.5 ohm, 100 ohm, even 1000 ohm is perfectly safe and won't blow the chip but the power transfer becomes increasingly inefficient the higher you go. In practice anything above 12 ohm or so will be too quiet to be of use for our purposes so I suggest a practical upper limit of 8 ohm. If that speaker does turn out to be 23.5 ohm, three or four in parallel (around 7 or 5 ohms resoectively) should provide an acceptable solution.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Bif

[MikeParkin65]

Happy in my ignorance I have used the iphone 6 loudspeaker with both the Hornby TTS and a Loksound 4. Both of these chips came with 8ohm speakers originally. In each case i am getting very similar volume levels (I'd say the same) with the iphone speaker as with the original. The loco's have had long running sessions with no adverse consequences so far. If higher impedance give lower volumes I would say i have found no evidence to suggest the impedance is higher in the iphone speaker than that which was originally supplied.

 

Google searches have failed to come up with a quoted impedance for the iphone speaker though I have found reference (on an audiophile forum) that  suggests that the iphone 5 used a 3.5ohm speaker and a suggestion that the iphone 6 uses similar.

 

The sound quality is way in advance of that of the original Hornby TTS speaker and as good as zimo sugarcube from a couple of years ago. I am not claiming that these will be equivalent to an Earth Mover but at 99p a go they are  cheap upgrade for TTS and neat solution for space limited locations.

[Roy Langridge]

Just so I'm clear, am I right in thinking that impedance of the speaker can't be less than the chip is designed for, but can be more?

 

For example, I've seen some Youtube clips of a Loksound v4 being used (seemingly happily) with a single iPhone speaker which I now know to be rated at 23.5 ohms. Yet I thought these needed a 4 ohm speaker? Or is it a minimum of 4 ohms? Anything greater than 4 ohms I presume will mean the volume is reduced? Hence the advice above about parallel vs serial wiring of multiple speakers.

 

Or am I completely wrong

You are not wrong. If the impedance is lower the decoder may deliver more power than it should. Basically the same issue as LEDs and resistors.

 

Roy

[Roy Langridge]

Google searches have failed to come up with a quoted impedance for the iphone speaker though I have found reference (on an audiophile forum) that  suggests that the iphone 5 used a 3.5ohm speaker and a suggestion that the iphone 6 uses similar.

 

That would be an unusual impedance for a speaker and I would be inclined to think somebody has measured resistance. If you measure the resistance of a speaker you will get a reading that is slightly lower than its impedance - typically about 15% less. 3.5 ohms resistance would be indicating roughly 4 ohm impedance which is a "normal" speaker impedance value.

 

Roy

[Revolution Mike B]

Interesting to read through this after my OP because I've given up with the iPhone speakers for now because I just can't get the bass response. 

 

Bif's EM speakers are very good at getting the 'thump' that we're missing - I'm not that fussed about the doppler effect either, I just want my 37 to sound like a 37!

 

Yes, sound in 'toy trains' is a gimmick.....but then 'toy trains' were a gimmick too at one point and look how they've progressed over the years. I'm sufficiently educated to find my way around a mixing desk and producing music to know that it's nigh on impossible to reproduce the sound of a real locomotive.......but let's not knock people for trying to continually improve the hobby!

 

Mike

[Nigelcliffe]

Happy in my ignorance I have used the iphone 6 loudspeaker with both the Hornby TTS and a Loksound 4. Both of these chips came with 8ohm speakers originally. In each case i am getting very similar volume levels (I'd say the same) with the iphone speaker as with the original. The loco's have had long running sessions with no adverse consequences so far. If higher impedance give lower volumes I would say i have found no evidence to suggest the impedance is higher in the iphone speaker than that which was originally supplied.

 

For "volume" you need to factor in the efficiency of the speaker and its enclosure.    Different speaker designs have different efficiencies.   In model trains, the little "sugar cubes" are surprisingly loud because they are very efficient compared to the more usual cone speaker designs.  

 

For a given design of speaker, then the rule about impedance related to volume applies.   But so many other factors affect the volume.     And then there are a raft of other issues which affect the quality of the reproduction. 

 

 

- Nigel

[dasatcopthorne]

Here are a couple of shots of the iPhone speakers I have so far.

 

First shot is both sides of an iPhone 4. the outer two contacts I measured as 23.5 ohm and the inner pair as 8 ohm.

Could there be two 'coils' inside? One appertaining to the Loudspeaker effect and the other to the earpiece effect. Don't know yet but obviously the earpiece effect won't be required.

 

 

Second 2 pics is the iPhone 6S Plus, described as the Loudspeaker.

The two contacts measures 8 ohms. The sound port is on the end and very small. Just inside it has a material gauze, I guess to stop dust.

 

I am still awaiting delivery of the iPhone 6 speaker and the I will test them against a Sugar cube.

 

 

Hope this helps.

 

 

Dave

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nile_Griffith]

Nice CV. You are aware we are talking about toy trains, aren't you?

 

In a sense, any recording you might come up with could be described as "adequate" when compared with what might be available in the future.

 

As far as the work being done by Charlie's team, it's the best that we currently have yet they still push the boundaries.

 

To suggest that that a toy train isn't real life is almost stating the obvious.

 

 

 

That is the thing. we aren't talking toy trains are we? We seems to be trying to coalesce a train of thought that suggests a notion that a person can model a train to quite high dimensional and  proportional accuracy and be very diligent in that pursuit. Then accept Less than accurate and dynamically incorrect sound as an intrinsic part of the modelled package. The accuracy of the physical model doesn't somehow miraculously make up for the short comings in both the captured sound and it's method of delivery.

 

I argue that todays DCC sound offerings are pushing against quite rigid boundaries rather than pushing back those boundaries and opening up new potential.

 

As others have pointed out. The sound of a train is much more than just the sound of the loco. It's the rolling stock behind the loco and the environment through which it moves. The DCC sounds currently modelled in know way match or reflect this, or to my perception. Offer an ability in the future to achieve this.

 

If anything DCC sound pulls the modelled layout and it's loco's into the land of the "Toy" not move it further into the realm of the an accurately modelled environment.

 

But as I said. If it puts a grin on yer face and more reason find time for the hobby. Then more power to you. But lets please not paint DCC sound as something that it is not.

Edited January 4, 2017 by Nile_Griffith

[RBAGE]

Are we? Or are we creating an impression of a railway so we can play trains? Nothing wrong with that.

 

Do you take some things too seriously?

 

On a matter of sound reproduction. I well remember the deltics from my youth. When I first heard Bif's class 55, it was like being there. That's good enough to satisfy my biological limitations of sound interpretations.

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

Just so I'm clear, am I right in thinking that impedance of the speaker can't be less than the chip is designed for, but can be more?

 

For example, I've seen some Youtube clips of a Loksound v4 being used (seemingly happily) with a single iPhone speaker which I now know to be rated at 23.5 ohms. Yet I thought these needed a 4 ohm speaker? Or is it a minimum of 4 ohms? Anything greater than 4 ohms I presume will mean the volume is reduced? Hence the advice above about parallel vs serial wiring of multiple speakers.

 

Or am I completely wrong

 

Your initial sentence is generally correct. A lower ohm rate speaker than recommended will run the risk of overloading the decoder output and that will lose the sound project but will possibly retain motor control.

 

The same applies to using two speakers wired in series or parallel. In series, add the two together, in parallel, divide single speaker impedance by two. There are variations on this. Using two speakers of different makes and size can affect the impedance total but not to any damaging degree.

 

There is one other figure to contemplate and that is speaker power handling. It is entirely possible to overload a speaker of say, 1/4 watt power handling which will cause distortion and failure of the speaker. This could again damage the decoder.

 

It is possible to use speakers within a range of values. The old ESU speaker impedance of 100 ohms on ESU sound decoders was quite capable of running a 50 ohm speaker ( if you could find one ).

 

It is possible to drive a marginal speaker by using the volume control with care.

 

Since volume is the only reason to run a speaker with less impedance than recommended it seriously pays to stay within the manufacturers range and use the CV volumes.

 

As always, a lousy install will negate everything in terms of both sound quality and definition.

[bescotbeast]

Happy in my ignorance I have used the iphone 6 loudspeaker with both the Hornby TTS and a Loksound 4. Both of these chips came with 8ohm speakers originally. In each case i am getting very similar volume levels (I'd say the same) with the iphone speaker as with the original. The loco's have had long running sessions with no adverse consequences so far. If higher impedance give lower volumes I would say i have found no evidence to suggest the impedance is higher in the iphone speaker than that which was originally supplied.

 

Google searches have failed to come up with a quoted impedance for the iphone speaker though I have found reference (on an audiophile forum) that  suggests that the iphone 5 used a 3.5ohm speaker and a suggestion that the iphone 6 uses similar.

 

The sound quality is way in advance of that of the original Hornby TTS speaker and as good as zimo sugarcube from a couple of years ago. I am not claiming that these will be equivalent to an Earth Mover but at 99p a go they are  cheap upgrade for TTS and neat solution for space limited locations.

I am off the same ignorance as yourself, I saw a clip on youtube for an iphone 6 speaker and followed suit with good results, as long as you obtain the "loudspeaker" version.

As has been mentioned they are great for fitting into small spaces and I'm happy with the results I've obtained. Below are my own comparisons, I don't profess to be a technical genuis I'm just happy to have found a low priced speaker that to my ears improves the sound of my locos. 

Edited January 5, 2017 by bescotbeast

[jaym481]

But as I said. If it puts a grin on yer face and more reason find time for the hobby. Then more power to you. But lets please not paint DCC sound as something that it is not.

 

 

Just as you can't hold a real Deltic in one hand, any sound is going to be a "model" of the real thing. It's not something to sneer at, any more than immobile little people on platforms is. It's meant to be representational, and as far a sound goes it'll always come up hard against Hoffman's Iron Law.

 

What one feels is more "realistic" is subjective, and shouldn't be scoffed. Is a silent steam engine more "realistic" than one with a representation of the sound (quite possibly recorded from the real thing)?

 

As for scoffing at MP3, I would too, if it was music being recorded in some attempt to represent a live performance (which a recording can never do, anyway). But it all depends on the sample rate, as even MP3 can sound just fine if it's not too compressed.

[pheaton]

Nile_Griffith

 

I think you hit the nail on the head, in that dcc sound is a representation, its not "shut your eyes and your there" and with the constraints of OO guage i cant ever see that becoming a reality in the short or the long term to be honest. As an enhancement you have to agree a dcc sound fitted model sounds more realistic than a non dcc sound fitted model.

 

Issue comes where its human nature to defend or gloss over the shortcomings on something that you have a vested interest in, not saying thats whats going on here but ive seen it in many a sound thread where TBH the truth is being told and its vigourously rebuffed, and treated almost like a personal attack, and said thread descends in the anarchy.

 

As an early adopter of DCC sound i have seen my share of poor projects, but things have improved drastically over the last few years.

I have to disagree with you regarding the boundries, we have seen a number of new features like Multi-Start, Drive Lock, Udrive, from the various ESU suppliers, and indeed paul chetter in the zimo arena also has come up with his own braking function and similar functions to the ESU decoders, all of these were not availiable from the outset, and most of them come from making use or manipulating undocumented features of the decoder. Also the boundries (particularly on the loksound) are quite rdigid, as a sound engineer im sure your aware there a multitudes of technical capabiltiies for the manipulation of the sound, but in the case of DCC sound thats only half of the story, that has to be then placed on the decoder, and in the case of ESU you are restricted to the capabilities of the lokprogrammer software, and since there is no API availiable so you cant develop new software to create new functionality so unless ESU provide new functions, the boundry is just that, a boundry. And we havent seen any indication of the V4s successor yet.

 

Your right in saying that DCC sound doesent take into account the rest of the train, just the locomotive (units are slightly different since they are self contained you can have all the sounds correctly in one place) however if i have a rake of 9 coaches on my layout using the multi channel capabilities of both the loksound and the zimo, i could install speakers in a carriage which means i get some more realism, however the sheer logistics make this inpractical so like everything in the model world, you have to compromise.

 

Over time people have put foward new idea's this thread is a prime example of them, nobody even thought about using iphone speakers a few years ago, however as you point out DCC sound is constrained by the speakers, and therefore the space you can fit them in.

 

For me there is still not enough competition in the dcc sound area thats improving as more and more suppliers pop up, but with more competition the quicker enhancements will come about as each supplier strives to provide the best sound.

 

However reffering to your comment about talking to a group of people and "getting your coat" as the secretary of the owning group and a driver for their home railway (very close to your apparently location) i have unrestricted access to two operational ex BR diesel locomotives (class 45 and class 26) i also own a lokprogrammer, why not show us how you would do things better?

Edited January 5, 2017 by pheaton

[MikeParkin65]

I am off the same ignorance as yourself, I saw a clip on youtube for an iphone 6 speaker and followed suit with good results, as long as you obtain the "loudspeaker" version.

As has been mentioned they are great for fitting into small spaces and I'm happy with the results I've obtained. Below are my own comparisons, I don't profess to be a technical genuis I'm just happy to have found a low priced speaker that to my ears improves the sound of my locos. 

It was this very video that inspired me to have a go and has given me a most enjoyable Chrimbo project as a result - thanks

[dasatcopthorne]

Guys.

 

I now have the iPhone 6 (not S or S Plus). It measures 7.5 Ohms.

 

Cheers

 

Dave

 

 

[charliepetty]

It was this very video that inspired me to have a go and has given me a most enjoyable Chrimbo project as a result - thanks

 

All speakers should be air tight, the speaker in the 81-85 clip is totally unsealed, not a good start for comparisons!!  The I phone is sealed I believe.  Charlie

[MikeParkin65]

Guys.

 

I now have the iPhone 6 (not S or S Plus). It measures 7.5 Ohms.

 

Cheers

 

Dave

 

7DM24502.JPG

Is that measurement including the small speaker`buzzer? I cut this off and plugged the resulting hole with blutack - its 'out of gauge' otherwise. Cutting it off made no appreciable difference to sound output (though plugging the hole did!)

[Nile_Griffith]

 

As for scoffing at MP3, I would too, if it was music being recorded in some attempt to represent a live performance (which a recording can never do, anyway). But it all depends on the sample rate, as even MP3 can sound just fine if it's not too compressed.

 

 

By it's standard MP3 is compressed. It is not the same as a WAV file which is uncompressed. You do get a choice with the amount of compression applied when creating an MP3 file but even at the upper resolution of 3200 it is still noticably compromised from the original uncompressed format, similarly the different MP3 codecs employed by the various hardware manufacturers give better or worse audio reproduction. But the MP3 format is by design a compressed audio format.

[jaym481]

By it's standard MP3 is compressed. It is not the same as a WAV file which is uncompressed. You do get a choice with the amount of compression applied when creating an MP3 file but even at the upper resolution of 3200 it is still noticably compromised from the original uncompressed format, similarly the different MP3 codecs employed by the various hardware manufacturers give better or worse audio reproduction. But the MP3 format is by design a compressed audio format.

 

 

I know it's a compressed format. It's just that if the the bit rate is high enough (I should have said that in my first post) it's perfectly adequate for many applications, and even music. BBC3 is streamed at 320kbps which is higher resolution than FM radio can achieve (I know, it's a different type of compression used in FM). For model trains MP3 recording should be fine at 128kbps. 

[pheaton]

And in addition loksounds work wav format so while you can go mp3 to wav you lose a good deal of quality by recording in mp3 in the first place, and then even more is lost in the extraction routine so you really might as well record in wav.

 

However is it noticeable on the speakers we are currently using is the question.

[dasatcopthorne]

Is that measurement including the small speaker`buzzer? I cut this off and plugged the resulting hole with blutack - its 'out of gauge' otherwise. Cutting it off made no appreciable difference to sound output (though plugging the hole did!)

 

I cut off the protrusion and the measurement is the same. 7.5 Ohm.

 

Interestingly, if it is a 'speaker', I could find no means of it being powered.

 

Dave

[MikeParkin65]

I cut off the protrusion and the measurement is the same. 7.5 Ohm.

 

Interestingly, if it is a 'speaker', I could find no means of it being powered.

 

Dave

I wondered how it was powered - the ones I bought were advertised as 'loud speaker and buzzer`ringer'. The sound chamber extends to the protrusion so I assume power must reach it by something our purchased speakers make contact with in the phone.

[Revolution Mike B]

Guys.

 

I now have the iPhone 6 (not S or S Plus). It measures 7.5 Ohms.

 

Cheers

 

Dave

 

7DM24502.JPG

 

I tried to cut the protruding lug of Dave to make it smaller......and ended up with a hole that I plugged too. I've also tried the 4 but they sound absolute garbage when they're not in the iPhone casing!!

 

So far, I've tried a number of speakers but the best I've found so far are some 8ohm ones from a guy called Richard Croft. They were much louder and clearer than anything else I've tried and he sells them at £4 each (ex laptop speakers). The biggest issue I've come up against is the lower frequencies which is where Bif's EM speakers blow everything else out of the water (I'm not affiliated with Bif in anyway except he's a thoroughly nice chap and does some great sound projects)!

 

Cheers

Mike

[dasatcopthorne]

I tried to cut the protruding lug of Dave to make it smaller......and ended up with a hole that I plugged too. I've also tried the 4 but they sound absolute garbage when they're not in the iPhone casing!!

 

So far, I've tried a number of speakers but the best I've found so far are some 8ohm ones from a guy called Richard Croft. They were much louder and clearer than anything else I've tried and he sells them at £4 each (ex laptop speakers). The biggest issue I've come up against is the lower frequencies which is where Bif's EM speakers blow everything else out of the water (I'm not affiliated with Bif in anyway except he's a thoroughly nice chap and does some great sound projects)!

 

Cheers

Mike

So. Where does one find Richard Croft please.

 

Dave

[Revolution Mike B]

So. Where does one find Richard Croft please.

 

Dave

 

I've just spoken to him and he's waiting for some more to arrive from China......no doubt he'll pop up on this thread soon Dave.