brossard Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 (edited) I have the three parts packs for Kirks Gresley coaches - brake 3rd, 3rd and full brake. I also have the additional parts to complete one coach (I think) so I made a start on construction tonight. I began with the bogies which look like this: and I feel that the detail on these is somewhat vague. The "instructions" describe the assembly but don't include a sketch. I do have the Isinglass drawings. I did a search of the web and came up with several pictures of model bogies but there's nothing from the real thing. I was wondering (hoping) if someone could share a drawing or photo of the bogie on the shop floor so I can add some additional detail. Thanks John Edited December 31, 2019 by brossard 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
66C Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 (edited) Hi John This one was at Bo'ness a while back. You may also find the bogie assembly guide on the Kemilway website useful - it can be downloaded from here: http://www.kemilway.com/kemilway-manual.html These files are a very useful resource for building models of Gresley coaches. Regards. Edited October 21, 2016 by 66C 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted October 21, 2016 Author Share Posted October 21, 2016 (edited) Ta very much Bill, those pics will help a great deal. The Kemilway stuff (one of the hits from last nights search) is interesting. John Edit: Just had another look at the Kemilway site, downloaded a very comprehensive set of instructions for the Gresley bogie - just the ticket. Edited October 21, 2016 by brossard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted October 27, 2016 Author Share Posted October 27, 2016 (edited) I've been working away on the bogies. The parts that come with the "kit" are very basic. I took a look at the Kemilway instructions and these are very detailed with excellent drawings. I decided to have a go at fabricating some of the details to try to get a better representation of the brake gear and suspension. I have now joined the bogies as you can see. I needed to add a 0.020" shim (which just be made out as a white line) in order for the wheels to seat in their bearings comfortably. I removed the material between the wheels, mostly because I couldn't get the wheels in otherwise, but this is more realistic. I added some framing that will support the brake hangers. I made some boxes containing coil springs (4BA screws) that will fit in the center of the bogie. I cobbled some brake shoes from plastic strip - actually I made 3 coaches worth, there are 16 per coach. I've installed these on one side. You can see the brake yokes. 0.032" brass rod, 1mm PB strip. Finally, the 8 shoes that will be fitted when I'm ready to install the yokes. It's all madness of course, but will be interesting to see what I can do. Does anyone know of a source for bogie detail parts? I've used Bill Bedfords 4mm bogie kits, but he doesn't seem to do any in this scale. The idea of having to do this for two more coaches is a bit daunting. John Edited December 31, 2019 by brossard 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted October 29, 2016 Author Share Posted October 29, 2016 (edited) Todays work was to put the bogies together and complete the construction. What started out as a simple desire to enhance the somewhat basic Kirk bogies got a little out of hand as I discovered more and more detail on the Kemilway instructions: On the left is a bottom view, the right is from the top. In the left view, the yokes are linked together to an actuating arm. You can also see the safety loops. I used 0.032" PB wire for these. PB is softer than brass and is easier to work. I've added the bolster coil spring assembly at the center of the bogies In the right view there's a diamond shaped yoke linking the inner and outer actuating arms. I've built up a bolster from plastic card. I CA'ed a brass washer to the top of the bolster. I learned a heck of a lot from this exercise. Having studied the Kemilway instructions, I'm inclined to get a set of bogies at some point. I'll see how I get on with these first. John Edited December 31, 2019 by brossard 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted October 30, 2016 Author Share Posted October 30, 2016 (edited) It seems that before I can cut out the floor to size I need to assemble the body to get precise dimensions. Therefore I have begun to prepare the sides: Each panel and door is a separate piece. I've chiselled off the moulded door handles and drilled 0.020" in preparation for brass tee handle installation later. I bought the Isinglass drawings for the three kits I have. IMO these are essential and a great tool for getting the coaches right. Of course RMWeb is another great tool. John Edited December 31, 2019 by brossard 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOCJACOB Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 Also good idea to have a jig for the sides. Mine is piece MDF with two angle iron sections to keep everything square with length of appropriate width brass to set the support suggested internal section of plastic accurately. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted October 30, 2016 Author Share Posted October 30, 2016 Agree Jacob, this is my first Kirk kit so I am on a learning curve. It is recommended to glue a strip of plastic to the backs. I will report on progress. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
66C Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 Hi again You may find it easier to also drill holes for the grab handles before assembling the body. If you are a Gauge O Guild member, you will find a couple of useful articles about building Ian's kits in the Gazette Archive. Regards. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall5 Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 (edited) Agree Jacob, this is my first Kirk kit so I am on a learning curve. It is recommended to glue a strip of plastic to the backs. I will report on progress. John IIRC Ian recommends glueing the re-inforcing strip 3mm from the bottom edge. It might be worth checking this as, on the BYP I'm just finishing, the body sat too low and I had to pack the horizontal spacers at the ends with pieces of .060" to get the height right. I like the work you have done on the bogies and it shows, that with a bit of effort, these "aids to scratch-building" (Ian's words) make up into very presentable vehicles. Ray. Edited October 30, 2016 by Marshall5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CUTLER2579 Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 IIRC Ian recommends glueing the re-inforcing strip 3mm from the bottom edge. It might be worth checking this as, on the BYP I'm just finishing, the body sat too low and I had to pack the horizontal spacers at the ends with pieces of .060" to get the height right. I like the work you have done on the bogies and it shows, that with a bit of effort, these "aids to scratch-building" (Ian's words) make up into very presentable vehicles. Ray. Ian actuall includes the relevant strip which in my coaches has been Black Plasticard. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Pulham Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 Todays work was to put the bogies together and complete the construction. What started out as a simple desire to enhance the somewhat basic Kirk bogies got a little out of hand as I discovered more and more detail on the Kemilway instructions: On the left is a bottom view, the right is from the top. In the left view, the yokes are linked together to an actuating arm. You can also see the safety loops. I used 0.032" PB wire for these. PB is softer than brass and is easier to work. I've added the bolster coil spring assembly at the center of the bogies In the right view there's a diamond shaped yoke linking the inner and outer actuating arms. I've built up a bolster from plastic card. I CA'ed a brass washer to the top of the bolster. I learned a heck of a lot from this exercise. Having studied the Kemilway instructions, I'm inclined to get a set of bogies at some point. I'll see how I get on with these first. John The bogie enhancements are superb John. I have built some of the Kemilway Fox bogies but not the Gresley's (actually I still need to finish the Fox ones too along with the coach that they go under.....) they go together very nicely and satisfy my detailing itch. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted October 30, 2016 Author Share Posted October 30, 2016 Thanks for the tip Bill, must check the article. Ray, I recollect the advice in the instructions to glue a strip of plastic to the inside. Getting the height of the strip right is pretty important I reckon. I imagine it forms a ledge that rests on the floor. I have two strips of white plastic and a large black piece that I assume will be the floor. Great fun to add the detail to these bogies Rob - it helps to know what you're supposed to be doing. As I say, I'm sorely tempted to get some Kemilways now. No progress today since I was helping a friend knock down his 4mm layout in order to build a 7mm one. The infection is spreading! John 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
66C Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 Hi John The black plasticard supplied for the floor is 60thou thick. The two white strips are intended as the reinforcing strips behind the side and door panels. Even before the articles in the Gazette I had made myself a jig with a straight edge for the bottom of the side panels and doors. Against the straight edge I glued some 60thou wide plastic strip (thinner than the reinforcing strip) so that the reinforcing strip behind the side panels and doors is spaced the thickness of the floor above the bottom edge. This does make assembling the sides much, much easier. The Gazette articles have some good photographs of such a jig in use. I did not use the white strips supplied for the reinforcing strip. Instead I used 40thou plasticard strip. This was so that I could put infill strips behind the compartment dividers and a strip along the inside top of the side panels and doors. This gives a "flush" inside and makes fitting out the interior easier. You may be able to make them out in this photo: In case you are wondering, the door hinges are 2mm long pieces of plastic rod set in the groove between door and side panel with solvent. The lower hinge is a double layer - the first piece has the surface trimmed vertical and then a second piece is placed on top as the lower hinge is deeper to compensate for the turn-in of the body side. Regards. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted October 31, 2016 Author Share Posted October 31, 2016 Thanks Bill. That's a very useful picture. You've given me much to think about. I'm glad I made this post. I'm curious as to what colours you used for the interior panelling. I was thinking of gluing the side pieces in pairs first, using a steel rule at the top to keep them straight and then going back to glue the sub assemblies together. My thought was that the reinforcing strip could be added afterwards. Is this the wrong approach? I did find the Gazette articles and there are useful tips there too. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall5 Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 Hi John, I first made a jig from ply with a straight edge along the bottom and, at right angles, along the left hand edge. After cleaning up the edges of the side mouldings on wet & dry I arrange them, face up, on the jig. I then apply the minimum amount of solvent along the joint lines with a very fine brush. When the complete side is thoroughly dry I flip it over and add the strip of .040" Plastikard remembering to allow for the thickness of the ends and floor. I'm sure others will have their own methods but it works for me. If you intend fitting brass door handles it is easier to remove the moulded ones and drill the new holes while the sides are 'in the flat'. Ian supplies round plastic rod for the rainstrips but, in the past, I've substituted 'half round' from Evergreen. This time, however, I didn't have enough, so, more of an experiment than anything else cut down the rod supplied to half round. To do this I attached an over long piece to a board by taping at the ends and then scraping a craft knife blade along the length, repeatedly until it had been reduced to half thickness. I was surprised how quickly this was achieved and was accurate to +/- a couple of thou. Hope this helps. Ray. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
66C Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 Thanks Bill. That's a very useful picture. You've given me much to think about. I'm glad I made this post. I'm curious as to what colours you used for the interior panelling. I was thinking of gluing the side pieces in pairs first, using a steel rule at the top to keep them straight and then going back to glue the sub assemblies together. My thought was that the reinforcing strip could be added afterwards. Is this the wrong approach? I did find the Gazette articles and there are useful tips there too. John Hi again The interior is simply painted by the overspray from the exterior body painting. One tip - not painting - make a note of the glazing sizes before assembling the body as it's much easier to measure them at that stage. I did a dry run with each set of side panels and doors to check the overall length before gluing anything. It's not unusual to find the lengths of each side are not quite the same and this gives an opportunity to carefully reduce the width of selected panels to adjust the overall length. When assembling each side I made the reinforcing strip a bit longer than the finished side to help with handling and not have to worry about the exact positioning. This was trimmed back after assembly. The reinforcing strip was placed against the 60thou spacer and for each side I started at one end and worked along to the other. Some solvent was applied to the reinforcing strip, the panel or door put in place and then some solvent was run down the joint between panel and door. The top of the bodyside was checked as I went along and fine adjustments made if necessary, before the join hardened, to keep the top edge in line. If you go for sub-assemblies there is the danger that any mis-alignment within a sub-assembly would be cumulative and consequently be more difficult to rectify later. Looking ahead, before assembling the body sides, ends and floor you need to decide whether to make the roof or the floor removable - there are pros and cons for both so you need to decide which suits you better. I went for removable roofs and I will happily describe my method with some photos if you decide to go that way. One of the reasons for mentioning it at this stage is that it will affect how you go about fitting out the interior. Regards. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted October 31, 2016 Author Share Posted October 31, 2016 Hi Ray, I get the straight edge and your method sounds a lot like what I have in mind. I'm beginning to realise that the perpendicular will help to get things absolutely straight, so I''l make a jig as you and others describe. Interesting about the rainstrip. I did something similar to plastic tube to get gutters. It worked but was rather tedious. I've since bought some brass half round from Eileen's. Too large for this application tho'. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted October 31, 2016 Author Share Posted October 31, 2016 Hi Bill, and here's me thinking you were doing something special to the interior. I struggle with wood colour - of course "wood" paint rarely looks convincing. Thanks for the tip about side length, will check that. I read the piece in the GOG article about making the roof removable, must think about that. May want to add people later. As I read the article, I realised I had forgotten the bogie steps, so I spent some time today making those from brass strip - after I had painted the bogies . John 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Pulham Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 Hi John, Like other's I have a jig, which is essentially a sheet of plate glass (a shelf from a fridge that died) with a strip of aluminium glued with PVA along one edge. I have a second stip of aluminium which I clamp to the glass to get both top and bottom parallel (I use cheap plastic clamps from the local pound shop). Another advantage of this is that I also have some flat engineers squares that I got from Eileens Emporium which I can clamp if needed adjacent to the fixed strip to get right angled corners to ensure that what I am gluing is sqaure in both dimensions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted October 31, 2016 Author Share Posted October 31, 2016 So many great ideas, I'm starting to feel a bit overwhelmed. Everyone is so generous. Thanks all. I've got so much going on right now, I think I need to clone myself. I'm making a new layout for a friend on top of everything else. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted November 1, 2016 Author Share Posted November 1, 2016 (edited) I fitted the bogie steps tonight: I made these from 5mm brass strip, soldering 0.45mm NS wire to the rear. The Isinglass dwg. shows short steps on the compartment side. The offside only has the central step. I started a side jig as well, waiting for glue to dry. I checked the side lengths and found about 1mm difference. I gave the door and window modules a file down and the discrepancy seems fixed. Another question that arose from the GOG article is that of couplings. My assumption was that screw links were used, but I learned that couplings were in fact buckeye. My instinct would be to use Kadee to represent this (I used Kadees in 4mm for decades and found them to be easy to install and reliable in service). I'm guessing that there was provision to drop the buckeye like Mk 1 coaches. What do others think? John Edited December 31, 2019 by brossard 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John R Smith Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 I'm guessing that there was provision to drop the buckeye like Mk 1 coaches. What do others think? John I would have thought so. Otherwise what would the shunter have done if you had to cut one out of a rake? John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 65179 Posted November 1, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 1, 2016 (edited) Yes, drop the buckeye and extend the buffers inserting the collars (seen hanging from the buffers secured by a small chain when the buckeyes are in use).Not the right sort of Gresley, but see:https://m.flickr.com/#/photos/lereddog/7980387630/in/set-72157631567847234/Simon Edited November 1, 2016 by 65179 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted November 1, 2016 Author Share Posted November 1, 2016 Smashing picture though, exactly what I was thinking. My thinking is that my two coach rake, 3rd and brake 3rd will be coupled permanently, (perhaps with a wire system similar to what I use on 4mm a la Tony Wright), or even Kadee. For the ends, it looks like the coaches relied on the loco screw link coupling. I see Invertrain list dummy buckeyes so I'll get some of those. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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