bertiedog Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 As it came up on another posting about restoring and using the Polly 040 from Tri-ang, thoughts turned to the similarity of the Polly to the LSWR 101, and that ones resemblance to the front end of a rail motor engine unit. The unit in mind is the L&Y railway railmotor It needed a coach, so a K's Auto coach kit has been bought on Ebay, a very good basis for the right type of coach, with it's driving compartment, door arrangements and general look. Also the whitemetal parts are easy to modify or and brass parts to. The single rear bogie is catered for, the kit came with wheels etc, but the plan is to do the lot in P4 Standards The original Tri-ang wheels convert easily to P4, these are the mid production period type, with full spokes and a steel tyre, all re machinable to scale appearance. The Loco needs full outside valve gear, all made in nickel sheet and nickel and brass sections, with widened frames by epoxied on plastic faces, that will take details like the brakes. The original motor will be kept as it runs fine, but the gears will be altered to lower the speed range, Tri-ang had a two start worm, it can be changed to a brass single start worm. Other Markits gears could be fitted to lower it further. The K's Kit will need an under chassis added to take the pivot joint where the coach rests on the Locos frames, the Polly chassis can take it using the mount for the coupling. The under chassis can be made from brass curtain rail section. The joint will not need to move much as it is P4 track as per prototype. The K's Auto coaches pose few problems on assembly as long as assembled square and true with full soldering of the walls, and a brass floor. The castings do vary, but with a bit of fettling usually prove usable. I have not done a P4 /S4 for a while, I have a small end to end P4 layout, which this can operate on very well. It will be painted in the LSWR livery, the body colour for the coach will be researched, possibly in a teak finish, Stephen ref for Polly Nellie Connie restoration posting. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/115842-updating-nellie/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ROSSPOP Posted October 22, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 22, 2016 Hooray ! ...... a proper modelling project. I hope your going to do a blow by blow account of progress Stephen..... I shall look forward to it. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted October 22, 2016 Author Share Posted October 22, 2016 The first part is the loco as a unit, and that is only the valve gear and wheels, in P4, but equally applicable to EM, 00, etc., You could leave the wheels if you have code 100, they run fine, but need the back to back set to about 14.3 to run through Peco smoothly, you might need to tweak it a bit by experiment. The flanges are a bit thicj forproper 14.5 back to back. For P4 the conversion uses a lathe, but is easy, as handily the overall width of the wheels over the tyre faces is about the same as P4. All you have to do is shift the tyre out till the flange lines up with P4 position, and the machine the front flush, thin down the flange to prototype thickness, profile and height. The back of the wheel sticks out, but can be machined away, leaving a very fine scale P4 wheel. The wheels with insulation can be re-bushed or fitted with brass bushes, and insulate the rim with paper and epoxy. This is the best way as the plastic bushes can causes wobbles. Of course you can just fit Gibson, with conversion bushes in the frames to P4, EM, or 00 scale. This also opens up fitting higher ratio gears a bit more easily. The Tri-ang wheels are tough castings with hardened steel tyres, you may need a very sharp lathe tool to cut the tyre back, or a carbide tool, sometimes they are softer. They do not wear out! The valve gear is made from nickel silver sheet cut out with a Swiss style fret saw roughed out and then soldered in pairs to file to shape and drill out the pin pivot holes. The pivots are brass lace pins, (or nickel if you can get them). The cleaned up and de soldered parts are drilled on one side to the size of the pin, and the other a number drill larger. The pin is soldered after the joint is put together with a manilla paper washer, which spaces the parts and stops the solder flowing over the entire joint. Manilla paper is dense and works best. The cylinders can be made of brass tube or rod, with brass ends, and nickel guides in square section stock, ( Eileens have it). The other parts are made from bras or nickel, like the expansion link, and the guide hanger support. on this model the hanger ( ape hanger), can be sawn in half and the inner ends soldered to plates that can be screwed to the chassis sides, or even glued with good epoxy. The frames have the die cast rivet heads filed away to make the side flush, and then a piece of black polystyrene is epoxied over the whole side, and once set , trimmed to the profile. For P4 the plastic can be thicker. The plastic allows brake gear to be added, fully insulted, along with other frame details. The whole frame can be undercoated and painted in satin black car cellulose paint. Thin multiple coats will not affect the plastic. The cylinders can be made on a frame that wraps around the chassis, and held with screws in tapped holes in the castings. After assembly brake pull rods and steam cock control rods can be fitted. I do not think any major part has to be altered for the Railmotor, only a slice off the back of the coal bunker, which is covered by the joint wrapper sheet, see photo of the L&Y unit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted October 22, 2016 Author Share Posted October 22, 2016 With P4 the back to back should be 17.87mm, but rather unfortunately the figure has been adjusted by some to as little as 17.67mm, to, in their words ease the running over points.......well if you want easing, use EM Matey, this is P4, where scaled prototype measurements are used. If your skills in making points need the altered standards, then take a course in making pointwork using gauges! Standards are standards, that is the point of having them, and deliberately building to a poorer standard defeats the advantages of scale wheels and track... but it is up to you. I usually stick to 2mm as the tyre width, the real thing varies all over the place. The Back to Back plus 2X tyre width is approx the total width of the Tri-ang wheel set, very handy indeed. This is the reason P4 usually fit under 00 splashers, as even with finer 00 wheels the makers allow for a bit of sideplay as well. No clearance problems on Polly, except the valve gear must be assembled very tight so as not to foul the rods of guide bars. Being a hypocrite, you could adjust the cylinders to be a little further apart to get things to fit!!! Stephen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted October 22, 2016 Author Share Posted October 22, 2016 Another shot of type, but it is not being built to match, only in the style of. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted October 25, 2016 Author Share Posted October 25, 2016 In the last shot of the L&Y railcar there is a just noticeable sag to the coach, so I will be able to excuse the K's Autocoach parts if they sag a bit! The Coach kit should be here soon, the first thing is not to assemble the body, but to make a decent brass frame chassis for it, with a new brass plate floor over the entire length of the coach. I can piece together two plates in 1mm brass to get the length required, The K's bogie should be all right, might need foot stepboards added, and steps under the double doors, for use on branches without platforms. It can have a brass bolster added with pivoting white metal frames to add compensation and smooth running. I have some minute 1mm ball bearings that can be fitted to the bogie sides to take the K's pin point axle stub. Brakes shoes can be added made in black plasticard for insulation. The bogie will be set to pick up power to aid the Polly pickup side. The axles could be split and insulated, with slip rings to take power from both sides, but then one of the frames has to be insulated as well. Best keep it simple and easy to arrange. With the sound straight brass chassis and brass floor, the white metal parts should line up a lot better, fixed permanently to the brass, with the roof left removable. The top rim of the body work can be strengthened with brass plate, and then a full planked wooden roof fitting, with magnets to hold it in place. Planked roofs nearly always work better than plastic or brass, they look like the real thing for starters, especially when done with a Japanese tissue surface, doped into place. Gives strength and texture is right. I use oak and box wood for the parts, or bass wood for the planks. I prefer an easy to remove roof to be able to work on the interior, seats, passengers, adverts, signs, and lighting. The weight of the brass and lead parts will be high, but well within the XO4 motors power range, and it will give a solid running unit. It has nothing else to haul, although the real ones cold add trailer coaches. I have cut out the valve gear parts for the Polly, next is the cylinder unit in solid brass, and finding a way to fit it to the steel chassis sides. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted October 25, 2016 Author Share Posted October 25, 2016 I am altering the frames a bit, nothing major, but a clean up of the existing parts, which applies to all the Tri-ang made chassis/ They are made of steel, with die-cast spacers, that have stubs that go through the stamped steel, and have a head formed by a flypress to secure the die casting to the plates. The problem is the stamping, all chassis sides are the same, and any cupping or distortion is always on the outside on one plate and inside on the other. This leaves rough edges on the outside on one side, and inside on the other. As there are no bearings, the axles running in the frame steel, it also leaves rough holes. If the riveting is filed away, you can knock the parts out and then sand and file all the surfaces to a good finish, also file and clean up the castings, and the re-assemble with long set epoxy, checking the axles are parallel and in line. The whole chassis can then be sanded, and wire brushed to remove any traces of burrs, and the undercoated and painted. At each stage you have a chance to add features like brakes, extra thick frames by adding black plasticard etc, and you can add brass bearings to suit the axles to be used. Even if the Tri-ang axles remain, I would still drill out and fit bearings in brass or bronze, or ball races if available in the right sizes. It pays to do this, the design was sound, but sometimes the quality of assembly was poor. Really the chassis parts in steel should have been through the process known as tumbling, where a batch is tumbled with stones and grit to produce a burr free perfect finish, Tri-ang did not bother. Once the curling effects from the stamping, and the burrs are removed the parts will fit perfectly to the die-cast spacers. All done, it gives a super tough chassis that will never wear out. Stephen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted October 26, 2016 Author Share Posted October 26, 2016 The GWR Autocoach kit has arrived in the post, it is a Banbury period Keyser production, with Romford coach wheels, so more usable parts than some K's kits. The parts look clean and square as well, and it has a moulded plastic roof rather than a vac formed item, All is still sealed to the cardboard backing, but appears complete. As was the usual with K's, very few instructions and no drawings! Also in the post today are micro miniature 1mm bore ball races that will fit holes in each bogie side and still take the pointed axle end, thus allowing the frames to move independently giving compensation of sorts. The coned point goes into the bore about half way along the taper. The whole lot could move to one side and develop a list, but the coach body will be held basically level by the Polly chassis joint. If it does still list a bit then the axles will be replaced with axles with 1mm stub ends, left a bit loose for the compensation movement. Starting next to clean up the parts, and begin soldering together with low melt solder. Stephen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted October 26, 2016 Author Share Posted October 26, 2016 The parts are all cleaned of flash etc, and the main body joint all cleaned up ready to solder later on tonight. But I cannot find on the net any mention of interior arrangement for this early ex railmotor design altered to the Autocoach use. Anybody know of any drawings etc online, as a reference? As it is freelance as a rail motor, it does not matter that much, but I would like the windows matching the interior!!! The late units are covered by the Airfix Autocoach, but they have different door arrangements, not the middle doors as with this one. I have to assemble one end first, to be able to measure up the floor accurately, and cut out the brass sheet to fit, It can then have a planked wooden floor added to the compartment areas The moulded plastic roof is very slightly bowed, but will straighten under the pressure from the securing screws or magnets, as it rises slightly at each end, but has no twist thank goodness. Both assembled sides are exactly the same length, some thing the last one I did had as a extra, one side was 3mm longer than the other. This one has better castings than average from K's, the bogies are commendably true and flash free, The wheels are Romford type, and need the recessed face filled with body filler or cast fronts found. They all run perfectly true, one side will have to be shorted to the axles and bogie to provide power return. Wire pickups could be fitted to the other side wheels as well. This could also feed LED stay on lights as well as to the motor. As it is an older coach I assume gas lights and K's supply nothing for a gas tank, or suggest a position, again any drawings? Stephen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 A great project. The same thought had also crossed my mind, but, as with all Railmotors I've fancied doing, I fear that the complex valve gear would be beyond my meagre skills. I concluded that a freelance Motor Train might be more practical for me to attempt. Nevertheless, I look forward to watching your progress with great interest and careful attention. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted October 26, 2016 Author Share Posted October 26, 2016 Well, it all fits together, and the plastic moulded roof fits. There is a bit of filing to do to get the profile of the top of the cab and end to match the plastic roof, but it is a very small amount. With the large steps inside the top of each end I may just fit 14 ba screws to secure down the roof, with the whitemetal tapped 14ba and brass countersunk screws. They could be covered with dummy vents each. The whitemetal coach sides match each other and it is square, but still has slight ripples down the sides, which are best removed once the floor plates are fitted. they can be pressed out or in by finger pressure. It may need a brass wire added around the top to strengthen it, but it seems reasonable now the internal partition walls are soldered in place. Bras handrail are need for the middle doors to support steps Clean up of the surfaces with a plastic brush next, then fit the floors and bogie centre at the rear only. K's made very little allowance for glazing on this model, a very tight glazing fit is needed on most panels. The messy surface on the wall interior below the window, is K's fault, they attacked the master or mould with a Dremel or air grinder over the mould surface, leaving a very odd surface, it may have had an old address or trademark etc removed at some point. The Polly is nearly ready for testing on it's own wheels , then alter to the P 4 profile version. The Romford wheels in the kit will easily re-profile to P4 treads. Stephen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted October 27, 2016 Author Share Posted October 27, 2016 It will need tests, but a quite serious problem has come to light, realised in the mind before a quick check, that the body is so heavy it may tip up Polly!!! Polly is fairly light and if the pivot point is behind the rear axle then the weight of the coach does tend to tip up the Polly chassis. The solutions are varied, but all involve the pivot point being move to within the wheel base, or as near as practicable. The chassis block can have a new pivot screw added, or a plate added to the existing holes, with a pin on the plate. The arm under the front of the coach is going to have to be very strong to take the weight and not risk bending etc, and moving the pivot forward further restricts the curves the loco would go around. A solution might be to have a saddle over the motor with rods down to each side and connected to two side beams on the coach. This would put the weight firmly on Polly and allow for curves, but would involve a lot of testing and design. The simplest way is often the best and a plate under the loco pivoted in front of the axle may be best. 1.5 mm brass would not bend too much, and there is clearance under the rear of Polly to take the extension plate, fixed to the front of the Autocoach body. The coal bunker on Polly will have to go, leaving the cab back covered with a jointing sheet of bodywork over the joint. I will have to knock up a card mock up of the cab back and the coach end, before committing major surgery and having to unpick it with lots of scratchbuilding. Stephen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheesysmith Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 Would putting 2 pivot points directly in a line vertically work? After all, the same principal works on a door. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted October 28, 2016 Author Share Posted October 28, 2016 Yes two would do as a pivot, but it still places the weight in the wrong place, and the weight would cause friction in the joint, as both the weight and turning are fighting each other. I think the simplest, under the loco, will allow for the weight and slight up an down movement as well as rotary. The K's Auto coach is a real heavy weight, and there are the floors in 1.5mm brass to add yet, along with figures etc. A hinge might restrict the wheels from all making the same firm contact for pickup purposes. With P4 the track will be dead flat, but over points you still get a chance of a bit of a drop on the frog Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcm@gwr Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 Maybe the best option is to build the K's as an auto-coach, and get an Airfix/Hornby auto-coach for the conversion? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium uax6 Posted October 29, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 29, 2016 Or as much lead as you can fit into polly, can you pack the space between the frames with lead too? Take out the Mazak blocks and replace with frame spacers, and then you will then be able to fill the frames up with lead. I note that the front of the Railmotor has a bit filled in between the two cylinders, which again can have lead shoved in (as could the cylinders too.). Do you really need a brass chassis for the coach part? Plasticard can be just as strong as brass sheet if you brace it properly. The w/metal carriage dividers would be good candadates to come out and be replaced with thin brass sheet too. I don't think it would be than difficult to balance it all up. If the worse comes to the worse you could shorten the coach part (its going to be much longer than the L&Y one). If it is any consolation I inherited a very heavy brass exLNWR cove roofed brake third. I removed the brass chassis and made a much more detailed plasticard one, which has worked a treat. and to top it off it sits on those fragile to look at ratio bogies! (I saved about 10 grams in weight that way) Andy G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted October 29, 2016 Author Share Posted October 29, 2016 All solved now, a pivot just in front of the rear axle works fine, I did not want any major alterations to the autocoach, and the Airfix/ Mainline on is the modern sheet steel finish, not panelled like the K's. I have added floors in two parts, plus the vestibule in the middle, but now I am a bit unsure about the seating, half seems to be open carriage with conventional seating, half with tram type seating facing the centre walkway. Has anybody any drawings for the early type ex railcar autocoach interior. The Polly chassis is all prepared for the new bearings and the re-machined wheels, which will be done very soon. The body has had the moulded handrails removed completely, ready for replacement brass ones with .3 mm handrails in nickel silver wire. The handrails on the cab will be left, it is a lot of work to remove the lot and replace the door etc. I will test out the Tri-ang motor with the Mitsumi motor worm gear, it needs re-drilling in the lathe to 3/32 fit. The pitch of the worm seems to match up with the two start within reason, but of course is technically a bad mesh, with all wear to one side, but it does give a higher gear ratio. If all else fails I can fit a coreless motor and gear set, but with the old motor running well it seems a shame not to use it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 Will this do? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted October 30, 2016 Author Share Posted October 30, 2016 Will this do? It will do, thanks, not quite the right one, as the K's had double doors in the vestibule, but it gives to clue to the breaks between the seating types. it was just to get the seat backs against the correct window panes. Stephen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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