Help wanted for new Merseyside layout idea

[Roger Sunderland]

So, following on from my last layout, Carsdale, (see BRM Dec 2016) I'm looking to go back to a bit of urban grot for the next one. Been very impressed by Edge Lane junction, Wigan Wallgate et al. My youth was spent around the Liverpool to Southport line and Bootle junction was one of the few places on it where serious freight services could be found crossing over (under?) the electrified lines and linking the rest of the country with Liverpool docks.

 

I have in mind a section of the electrified lines with 502 emus but with freights crossing over through North and South junctions. A little bit of "licence would give me the daily 2 coaches from Southport, added to the back of a Lime St to Euston service, plus a few troop or diverted services on the Liverpool Exchange to Southport line. With the tunnels and different levels it could be very interesting.

 

I've seen various threads etc on here that mention this area but despite searching the Internet I'm struggling. Any help in where to go research wise, photos, articles etc etc would be much appreciated. Depending on the info I'll see if I can work up a plan.

 

Here's hoping!

[Michael Edge]

Try Old Maps for track plans at various dates. Bootle Junction would be very interesting but would need a lot of space to do it justice.

[NittenDormer]

If modeling in the 1990s, be sure to include a cuddly rabbit in a hammock stuck to the inside of a top floor window from when my sister lived on Kings Road. Old Liverpool Central would be my dream layout. New Liverpool Central could get by with no actual trains, just some noise and a slight shaking of the layout.

[PjKing1]

Morning Roger what I great idea for a layout and thanks for the kind words regarding Edge Lane Jubction, here's some links to Flickr, there's many more great photos on there but thought these might help for now and there's a couple of track diagrams to.

 

https://flic.kr/p/aTRswr

 

https://flic.kr/p/asPfKi

 

https://flic.kr/p/e18cJR

 

https://flic.kr/p/Eir1MN

 

https://flic.kr/p/tC2ycV

 

https://flic.kr/p/a7aLAr

 

https://flic.kr/p/AJNRWG

 

https://flic.kr/p/tC2w46

 

This site is very good to

 

http://rcts.org.uk/features/mysteryphotos/show.htm?location=Liverpool&serial=7&img=G-132-10A

 

http://rcts.org.uk/features/mysteryphotos/show.htm?location=Liverpool&page=3&serial=49&img=G-131-31A

 

Marsh Lane junction is also an interesting one to

 

http://rcts.org.uk/features/mysteryphotos/show.htm?location=Liverpool&page=3&serial=48&img=G-131-30A

 

Good luck and I'll be following this with real interest, how much room have you git to play with and are you going to be building your own track?

 

Cheers

[MarkC]

Yes indeed - good luck with it. I will watch out for progress with great interest - I have fond memories of the area from my younger days.

 

There were 4mm scale etched kits for Class 502 units available at one time; not sure if they're still available?

[Roger Sunderland]

Morning Roger what I great idea for a layout and thanks for the kind words regarding Edge Lane Jubction, here's some links to Flickr, there's many more great photos on there but thought these might help for now and there's a couple of track diagrams to.

https://flic.kr/p/aTRswr

https://flic.kr/p/asPfKi

https://flic.kr/p/e18cJR

https://flic.kr/p/Eir1MN

https://flic.kr/p/tC2ycV

https://flic.kr/p/a7aLAr

https://flic.kr/p/AJNRWG

https://flic.kr/p/tC2w46

This site is very good to

http://rcts.org.uk/features/mysteryphotos/show.htm?location=Liverpool&serial=7&img=G-132-10A

http://rcts.org.uk/features/mysteryphotos/show.htm?location=Liverpool&page=3&serial=49&img=G-131-31A

Marsh Lane junction is also an interesting one to

http://rcts.org.uk/features/mysteryphotos/show.htm?location=Liverpool&page=3&serial=48&img=G-131-30A

Good luck and I'll be following this with real interest, how much room have you git to play with and are you going to be building your own track?

Cheers

Many thanks for these, exactly what I was looking for. Space available is around 17x12 at home but I'm currently building an exhibition layout of Bournemouth West, some 35' long (see The Bournemouth West model railway group thread on here) so this project is a little way off. Yes i will definitely be building the track, not sure I can match yours though. Any other info you can think of please let me know. Eg any books with good photos/ plans?

 

By the way, do you know if the 502 units are still available?

Edited November 13, 2016 by Roger Sunderland

[Michael Edge]

The 502 kits were being sold by the preservation group, I passed on all my research on these to the man who developed it but I've no idea how many were actually produced. In answer to the usual question our 503 kit is no use whatsoever, the two types have no parts in common despite being similar in appearance.

[PjKing1]

Many thanks for these, exactly what I was looking for. Space available is around 17x12 at home but I'm currently building an exhibition layout of Bournemouth West, some 35' long (see The Bournemouth West model railway group thread on here) so this project is a little way off. Yes i will definitely be building the track, not sure I can match yours though. Any other info you can think of please let me know. Eg any books with good photos/ plans?

By the way, do you know if the 502 units are still available?

Thanks again Roger regarding my track, I've just checked out Bournemouth West and it looks very very impressive with lovely track work, I'm away at Centre Parcs tomorrow for a few days so that'll give me some time to see what else I can find about bootle, this is a good book though although I'm no where near finishing reading it, I good friend of mine has lent me.

 

 

I'm also jealous of the 17'x12' you have to play with

 

As for 502's I haven't a clue but I know a man who's building I've so I'll ask him.

 

Cheers

Edited November 13, 2016 by PjKing1

[37038]

The 502 kits were available from E-traction Kits or via the Friends of the 502 Group. However, they were only produced in small batches once a certain number of a variant had been reached. We (the 502 Group) haven't sold any for a while though so have removed them from our online shop. I would suggest still having a look on our site though!

 

And here is the link to the rmweb thread:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/46487-e-traction-kits-class-502/

[PjKing1]

Found a couple more links an pics this morning not sure if there of any use but might be of help.

 

I didn't know this though

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/bootle_balliol_road/

 

A bit modern but could be of interest

 

http://www.s-r-s.org.uk/pullfree.asp?FilePath=ArchiveSignals%5CDownloads%5Cbrmr&FileName=1986-55e.pdf

 

https://flic.kr/p/dsQhNq

 

https://flic.kr/p/dFBGRv

 

https://flic.kr/p/9nd1nH

 

https://flic.kr/p/btMtcT

 

Cheers

[Roger Sunderland]

The 502 kits were available from E-traction Kits or via the Friends of the 502 Group. However, they were only produced in small batches once a certain number of a variant had been reached. We (the 502 Group) haven't sold any for a while though so have removed them from our online shop. I would suggest still having a look on our site though!

And here is the link to the rmweb thread:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/46487-e-traction-kits-class-502/

Thank you 37038, much appreciate the info. Do you think you (the 502 group) will make these available again, any time soon, I'd be very interested. Have seen the Michael Delamar 502 build - superb, it's the green machines I would do. I've tried the link Michael gives but no success.

[Roger Sunderland]

Found a couple more links an pics this morning not sure if there of any use but might be of help.

I didn't know this though

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/bootle_balliol_road/

A bit modern but could be of interest

http://www.s-r-s.org.uk/pullfree.asp?FilePath=ArchiveSignals\Downloads\brmr&FileName=1986-55e.pdf

https://flic.kr/p/dsQhNq

https://flic.kr/p/dFBGRv

https://flic.kr/p/9nd1nH

https://flic.kr/p/btMtcT

Cheers

Found a couple more links an pics this morning not sure if there of any use but might be of help.

I didn't know this though

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/bootle_balliol_road/

A bit modern but could be of interest

http://www.s-r-s.org.uk/pullfree.asp?FilePath=ArchiveSignals\Downloads\brmr&FileName=1986-55e.pdf

https://flic.kr/p/dsQhNq

https://flic.kr/p/dFBGRv

https://flic.kr/p/9nd1nH

[url= ]

Cheers

Thank you so much, once again, have to get that book. Amazing stuff, particularly the fact that in 1986 British Railways are still referring to the LNW lines!. Please let me know if you come accross anything else and if you get anything on the 502 kit. You can PM me if it's easier.

 

Thanks

[PjKing1]

Thank you so much, once again, have to get that book. Amazing stuff, particularly the fact that in 1986 British Railways are still referring to the LNW lines!. Please let me know if you come accross anything else and if you get anything on the 502 kit. You can PM me if it's easier.

Thanks

No worries mate, I'll see what else I can find.

 

Cheers

[Stanley Melrose]

I gather from Matt that he has discontinued the kits because the demand just wasn't there any longer.  I guess he still has all the background material but it might take some persuading to get him to produce more.

 

Stan

 

No worries mate, I'll see what else I can find.

Cheers

[37038]

I gather from Matt that he has discontinued the kits because the demand just wasn't there any longer. I guess he still has all the background material but it might take some persuading to get him to produce more.

 

Stan

That's pretty much it, although he did say to me that if he got enough orders of one kit type he would consider producing a small batch.

 

You could always petition Hattons to produce a RTR version....

[Michael Edge]

I gather from Matt that he has discontinued the kits because the demand just wasn't there any longer.  I guess he still has all the background material but it might take some persuading to get him to produce more.

 

Stan

There isn't a huge demand for Liverpool area electric sets, we have only sold 51 503s up to now but we are able to keep it in production.

[ptrabant]

I was a Garston depot during the 80's , so enjoyed the delights of tripping all over the freight system . alec dock itself would be interesting .

Through trains to/from the dock system , yard itself had mail and cars just a couple of vehicles itself .

Open up the single platform (closed well before the 80's) as the excuse it connect with the Irish and IOm boats calling at this endow the system? 

 

Onto the dock was grain (hoppers) , seaforth freightliner , , steel (for a short while) and 16 ton mineral wagons for the scrap crusher .

 

The yard also had scrap 503's .

 

Remember only a short tunnel from Bottle Junction , model both ? 

[Roger Sunderland]

I gather from Matt that he has discontinued the kits because the demand just wasn't there any longer.  I guess he still has all the background material but it might take some persuading to get him to produce more.

 

Stan

That's a real shame, although I can see why there wouldn't be a huge demand.

[Roger Sunderland]

There isn't a huge demand for Liverpool area electric sets, we have only sold 51 503s up to now but we are able to keep it in production.

I guess you're right Michael. I would have thought there might be more demand for the 502s than 503s though. Lot of model able locations for the 502s. Bank Hall, Bootle, Liverpool Exchange, Southport Chapel St and the old Preston line.

[Michael Edge]

Probably, but the origin of our 503 kit (it actually predates Judith setting up the kit business) was an order from a customer to build two sets.

[banburysaint]

A couple of suggestions for you.

DVD - Merseyside memories number 2 - the loop and link electric railways of Merseyside - on line video.

DVD - Merseyside memories number 8 - steam around Liverpool - on line video

 

Book - an illustrated history of Liverpool's railways - Paul Anderson

 

Book - merseyrail electrics - the inside story - T B Maund

 

Hope this helps helps get your creative juices flowing!

Edited November 22, 2016 by banburysaint

[Steamport Southport]

I wish I would have known about the 502 kit. If they were readily available when I returned to the hobby then my EMUs would have been the LMS ones that I remember travelling on regularly rather than the SR EMUs that I now have.

 

 

I'll try and pick up a 503 when I have some spare money though.

 

 

 

Jason

[_Christina_]

If you fancy moving to N gauge I've got a 502 slowly in development I've been collecting pics and info about the northern line for a while, so when you figure out what it is you're doing I might have some reference that'll help.

[rue_d_etropal]

I've exhibited next to the 502 society stand on a couple of occasions. I was looking at the drawings at the Rainhill Christmas show, and it was suggested there might be interest in a model. I am currently working on a 3D printed GEC unit, but have drawings in DJ's book of the 502 units. Not the best drawing, but I think it is the same one as the one the 502 society have. Suspect both originated from NRM. I have already done the London Oelikon units, and am currently building those into a working model.

Anyway  I am hoping to look at doing the 502 soon. It is more complex, but at least it has same(or very similar) end profile, which is a start. Can't promise anything fast, especially with all those curves at ends. It would just be a body, no underframe or interior. My own interest is actually HO, but I am also scaling the designs up to OO scale. I have found that with coach sides, the roughness of the printed plastic can be smoothed down fairly easily as long as extra detail is excluded. I am sure if anyone wants all that they can add it themselves. Far easier than a kit. Roof and sides in one piece.

I told the 502 society people that I could not do it to raise money for them, as there is not much commission added to manufacture price andit is already not that cheap, It could still get interest for the group.

 

Were all the 502 units built by LMS. BR built some extra 503 units which have some differences to the LMS built 503 units?

 

My idea is to work through as many of these EMU designs as possible, although I originally only wanted an Oelikon for a London project. That's the trouble with 3D printing , it is very addictive.

[37038]

All the 502's were built by the LMS at Derby.