LMS 3F 060 Tender Loco, MPD Kit

[bertiedog]

When MPD originally brought out one of the etched brass and cast kits for the Fowler 3F Tender loco, I bought the kit and had it done as far as painting, only to have it trashed by removers, who near flattened it. I still have the remains, too far gone to rescue in any meaningful way.

 

 

But a complete MPD kit was on Ebay, and is now winging its way here for the long overdue replacement. Unless memory is deceiving me, the driving wheels on most of them were 5ft 2inch, and are shown in the Alan Gibson list as suitable for 3F/4F class. Some 3F had smaller drivers to increase traction.

 

I see that Markit do a dedicated pack for a 4F, so a question, would that suit the 3F, on the face of it, it should, as the wheels are both 5ft 2in, and 16 spoke. I really do not want steel tyres, so the Markit wheels would be best to purchase in.

 

The tender wheels should be standard Midland Railway size, so again the same size for 3F and 4F.....?

 

I did add a bit of extra detail, these bits can be retrieved from the remains of the damaged loco, brass dome and chimney for a start, along with lost wax injectors etc.

 

I assembled the original etched brass chassis with a couple of improvements like full width bearings, and a gearbox on the driven axle.

 

This can all be repeated on the new kit, with a more modern, and smaller, motor, plus a large flywheel. This time it will all be ball bearing fitted, including the tender wheels. The tubed bearings on the loco can be dropped and the ball bearings fitted in the etched sideframes.

 

The gearbox is damaged, it seems to be a type done by Mike Sharman, but could be duplicated easily in milled brass to make it stronger. The gears themselves are damaged, and can't be salvaged from the wrecked loco. So new gears will have to be bought in from Markits. The motor can be one of the five pole Chinese motors from Ebay, with double shaft in a black case.

 

Stephen

 

Edited December 9, 2016 by bertiedog

[Jol Wilkinson]

Mike Sharman's gearboxes had a two part milled brass casing incorporating the axle bearings. The worm shaft was carried in top hat bearings which were clamped in place when the four case bolts were tightened. From memory of the one I built for a LNWR tank loco, the gears didn't look like a Markits set.

 

Why not use an etched motor mount and gears such as High Level, LRM, Branchlines or similar?

[cctransuk]

If you haven't already seen it, you may be interested in http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/98857-building-a-4mm-scale-mpd-midland-3f-0-6-0/ .

 

There are pitfalls along the way - not least the misplaced splashers that won't really accomodate scale diameter wheels.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[bertiedog]

On the first one, smaller sized wheels were used, the class had two sizes. I cannot remember what make the wheels were, they might have been Hamblings with N/S rims fitted.

 

The gears are indeed Sharman, I found the paperwork, they are very distinctive, as the steel worm was deeply hobbed into the gear wheel, giving no side play, so if the axle had any side play it caused pressure to slow the loco. It was alright if the gearbox floated on the axle, but the motor had to go with it or use a universal joint.

 

Mention was made of the fitting of a Tri-ang 060 chassis, and I do seem to remember that the supplied etched one was a last minute change to the kit.

 

The level of detail was better than all the rivals at the time, and it can all be up dated to exceed RTR locos, and certainly run better as there is more choice on what to power it with.

 

I know that I had thought of putting the motor in the tender, a Mitsumi seven pole ball raced motor, which was far to large for the main chassis. These motors came from Rank Photographic at the time, an abandoned project for a desktop projector. The specification for the motors was to say the least excellent, with gold commutator, silver loaded brushes, and full balancing of the armature, made to retail at about £70 in 1970, I dread to think what they would cost now.

 

A Southern 060 loco fitted with one in the tender gave issues with coasting and running on very low voltages! The loco would get to full speed on 6 volts and coast over 8 feet, result for the customer was damaged buffer stops! Took a regulator circuit to cure it, but the loco was incredibly powerful and silent. He was using old Marshall transformers and they could barely control any decent motor in the late 70's anyway. Loco worked perfectly on my Codar unit.......

 

This one will get one of the Ebay Mitsumi's or one of the Chinese "black" shell five poles from Ebay, the type with very powerful magnets!! I will get a new Markits set of gears for this one, and build a gearbox around the gear set. the drive axle cannot be the rear as the cab floor would foul and the gearbox show to much.

 

The grooved boiler was meant to take plastic boiler bands, but I fitted round wire, and filed it down to the right height all round using shim of phosphor bronze as a guide.

[MarkC]

From memory, and no doubt if I'm wrong then someone will be along soon with the correct 'gen', 3 of this class were fitted with 6' drivers for working fast fish traffic. They (obviously) had larger splashers to accommodate the larger wheels, but the middle splashers were rectangular, giving the locomotives a very distinctive look.

[PenrithBeacon]

All but three of the class had 5'-3" drivers: the exceptions had 6'-0" drivers but were later converted back to standard. They were, nominally, rebuilds of the earlier 2F 0-6-0 engines some of which had 4'-10" wheels. Bill Bedford IIRC did a resin body of the 4'-10" wheeled 2F locos, but I don't know if it's still available. Keyser did a cast whitemetal 2F with 5'-3" drivers, I still have it somewhere in the loft unmade.

 

5'-2" drivers will do the job for you, I think.

 

HTH

 

Regards

Edited November 14, 2016 by PenrithBeacon

[cctransuk]

The grooved boiler was meant to take plastic boiler bands, but I fitted round wire, and filed it down to the right height all round using shim of phosphor bronze as a guide.

 

..... but, as I found out - the grooves are in the wrong place and the smokebox is too short.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

(Corrected as above in red).

Edited November 14, 2016 by cctransuk

[bertiedog]

 I have decided to do a tower gearbox to raise the motor to the boiler centre, it can have a 40:1 worm at the top and brass gears (from the Polish supplier mentioned before on RM web), to connect to the driving axle at 1:1.5 making 60, although I have ordered several sizes to experiment with to give about 1:40 to 1:60. the box will be brass, milled to shape with the tiny 1mm ballraces on stubs of the larger shafts ends. With caps over the races recesses, the whole box can be sealed up with silicon teflon grease.

 

If the motor is high mounted it looks like a flywheel could be mounted at the front end, and also at the back, beyond the gearbox. \the driven axle would be the middle one, always the best choice.

 

I have some scrap brass bar that new splashers can be turned up from in the lathe, replacing the thicker cast ones.

 

Stephen

[bertiedog]

..... but, as I found out - the grooves are in the wrong place and the firebox is too short.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Shush!!,..... we know that, but they don't know........

 

 

If they know, then it is the LMS version with the shorter box, said in a casual throw away manner.......

 

Stephen

Edited November 14, 2016 by bertiedog

[bertiedog]

   The kit arrived, 100% there with instructions and the original box. The wheels are on order with Markits, as a set including the tender, ans also so gear set to test and see which fits the best, with a high mounted motor.

   Chassis first, then tender, then loco body. The brass etchings are a bit tarnished so they are soaking in citric acid to clean them up to bright brass. One thing to make is the boiler backhead, no casting or etching is supplied. It can be sawn from 2mm brass sheet to give it strength as it supports the cab etc., The cab front was supplied attached to the firebox, with the firebox pre-formed into shape.

The cast chimney and dome can be duplicated in brass, as can several smaller details, along with the splashers.

The tender really needs no new bits, the axleboxes are plastic mouldings, frames brass, but with whitemetal tender sides The original one I did, assembled very accurately, far better than other 1970's/80's rival makes like K's.

Stephen

[chris25]

Hello,

 

Have you any details of the Polish supplier? Thanks in advance.

 

Regards

 

C.White

[bertiedog]

Hello,

 

Have you any details of the Polish supplier? Thanks in advance.

 

Regards

 

C.White

http://shop.kkpmo.com/index.php?cat=c21_Spurgear---Pinions-Spurgear--Gearwheel--Pinions.html

 

Above links to gear page, they do motors and gearboxes as well, site in English and Polish they accept Paypal etc.

 

Stephen.

Edited November 21, 2016 by bertiedog

[bertiedog]

The Motive Power Developments instructions reveal that the kit was based upon drawings by Bill Ibbott in the June and July edition of the Railway Modeller of 1964. The full drawings were reproduced in the instructions, so any discrepancy must date from the drawings. They do point out there were many variants, and the drawing is of a "typical" 3F.

Stephen

[bertiedog]

I am not bothering with the boiler band and smokebox corrections as they match at least the supplied drawings, and extending the smokebox would really need a new one, discarding the cast item, which like all the castings were to a high standard of finish. The metal used for the castings seems nearer to pewter than K's version of whitemetal. They supplied two chimney styles and one dome type.

All the brass is now clean and also blasted with sodium bi-carb powder to give a good surface to take the tinning to join to the whitemetal casting with low melt solder.

Stephen

[GTi]

Motive Power Developments was created by a friend of mine when he left the employment of George Allen, of etched footbridge fame.

 

Another friend was to build the first kit and I was to illustrate the instructions. As it turned out I had difficulty with the isometric projections (I was using the wrong Rotring ellipse template) and so I built the first loco and my friend did the illustrations!

 

As the three of us were all Protofour Society members the 3F was built rigid with Studiolith wheels, MW 5 pole motor and Romford gears. Pickup was from both loco and tender wheels. The engine was painted in LMS livery and professionally photographed for the adverts in the model railway press of the day.

 

This was my first etched brass kit and I seem to remember it went together without any hitches. The engine went on to operate on several early P4 layouts in West Yorkshire.

 

GTi

[Guest Lyonesse]

> This was my first etched brass kit and I seem to remember it went together without any hitches. The engine went on to operate on several early P4 layouts in West Yorkshire.

 

 

 

Where is it now?

[Horsetan]

....Where is it now?

Who knows? The market was pretty much in its infancy; how many MPD 3F kits were produced and sold? Occasionally you see one or two make it onto eBay so unless they're the same kits going round and round interminably they must have turned out quite a few....

[Guest Lyonesse]

Who knows? The market was pretty much in its infancy; how many MPD 3F kits were produced and sold? Occasionally you see one or two make it onto eBay so unless they're the same kits going round and round interminably they must have turned out quite a few....

Unbuilt kits (maybe the same few kits) do turn up on ebay but I was asking what happened to the first kit, built with Studiolith wheels, MW motor and professionally photographed for the model press of the day.  Does it still exist?

[GTi]

Lyonesse

 

Sorry - the 3F was sold on many years ago to someone in Derby if my memory serves.

 

GTi

[bertiedog]

When the loco came out I built up at least 2 for MRC members and one with P4 wheels, with frames packed out to correct width etc., The P4 owner complained it would not go around 3 foot radius, tending to jump track......you cannot win with some people. I had a look at his track, and it was a curve to a fiddle yard, and easily eased and gauge widened to take medium sized locos. His dreams of close coupled coaches was stymied though........

 

I have done most of the footplate and chassis, A little extra work under the boiler to take a high mounted motor on a tower gear box to keep the transmission out of the cab. it may  show a bit under the boiler, but minimal. I have drilled out the plastic axleboxes to take 1mm ball races, press fitted into the mouldings.

[bertiedog]

The new wheels and gears have arrived, but I am investigating using a Slaters cross helical gearbox, with a small Maxon low ratio gearhead coreless motor to improve the slow speed running. The Slaters box is 1.33 :1 so a 30:1 becomes 40:1 etc. It can be connected via a drive shaft from the motor in the boiler front area. FDO3 is the reference for the gearbox, which takes a 1/8th axle, and a 2mm shaft to the top helical gear. The width of the box is 8mm so fits inside the 00 frames easily.

With the gearbox it may pay to add springing to the chassis, using the original frames.

 

Stephen

[cctransuk]

The new wheels and gears have arrived, but I am investigating using a Slaters cross helical gearbox, with a small Maxon low ratio gearhead coreless motor to improve the slow speed running. The Slaters box is 1.33 :1 so a 30:1 becomes 40:1 etc. It can be connected via a drive shaft from the motor in the boiler front area. FDO3 is the reference for the gearbox, which takes a 1/8th axle, and a 2mm shaft to the top helical gear. The width of the box is 8mm so fits inside the 00 frames easily.

With the gearbox it may pay to add springing to the chassis, using the original frames.

 

Stephen

 

Stephen,

 

We all do it our own way, but I guarantee that you won't get better slow running than with this arrangement.

 

 

Mitsumi motor driving a Highlevel gearbox - simples!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[John_Miles]

That looks like it is going to protrude into the cab. Am I wrong?

[bertiedog]

That looks like it is going to protrude into the cab. Am I wrong?

Surely the High level gearbox is driving the front axle?

[cctransuk]

That looks like it is going to protrude into the cab. Am I wrong?

 

No - it's in the firebox.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

That looks like it is going to protrude into the cab. Am I wrong?

Surely the High level gearbox is driving the front axle?

 

 

No - the rear axle; see the guard-irons.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.