THE 'USA' TANKS - WHAT'S NEXT?

[Oldddudders]

Being a bit pedantic, but wasn't Toby a Y6? 

 

 

 

 

 

Jason

 

Only a bit?

[Nelson Jackson]

What a brilliant idea for the next commissioned model, I would definitely get one without the side skirts, because that motion would be a delight to see in action.

[Dave47549]

.

[Corbs]

Being a bit pedantic, but wasn't Toby a Y6? 

 

 

 

 

 

Jason

Even more pedantically, Toby's a J70 but the Rev. Awdry's model had a 4 wheel chassis

[Grasslands]

Being a bit pedantic, but wasn't Toby a Y6? 

 

 

 

 

 

Jason

 

Toby occasionally has aspects of both a Y6 and a J70, but for the most part he is a J70 and, as already stated, normally modelled on the incorrect 0-4-0 chassis (like mine is).

[Steamport Southport]

 

 

The pictures of "Toby" in the books were based on my photographs and Skinley's blue-print. They therefore more or less resemble a J70. I started planning a model for my own line, but had no chance to build it till we moved to our present parish near Wisbech in 1953. Meanwhile I read up the subject and found there were two types employed at Yarmouth, Lowestoft and the Wisbech and Upwell line. They were the 0-4-0 Y6, introduced in 1883, and the 0-6-0 J70, introduced in 1903. Both looked similar in general, but there were differences in detail. As my model was to be powered by a Romford motor bogie, it struck me that the four-wheeled prototype would be more suitable.

 

We arrived at Wisbech in January 1953, only to find that the last Y6 had been removed and scrapped in 1952. However, I scrounged some old photographs locally, and the authorities at Stratford (E.R.) kindly gave me a photostat copy of the 1883 working drawings, from which I prepared my own ...

 

Taken from this quite interesting website.

 

 

http://www.pegnsean.net/~railwayseries/toby.htm

 

 

It also has the RM article on building Toby. How many people would even consider building a locomotive or rolling stock model from plywood now?

 

 

http://www.pegnsean.net/~railwayseries/rm-1961-07.htm

 

 

 

Jason

[Grasslands]

I'm so happy about this news. 

 

Here are some shots of my J70 and Y6:

 

 

[Steamport Southport]

Very nice.

 

I think it really suits that early British Railways livery.

 

 

 

 

Jason

[MarkSG]

Weren't they always brake van brown, though, even under the LNER and GER? Although I can't find any colour photos of the real thing at all, the only ones on Google are models.

[Steamport Southport]

The colourful liveries are correct.  They're locomotives after all. Just the wood bit was varnished and later painted teak colour.

 

 

Full details of the liveries in GER days here.

 

https://www.gersociety.org.uk/index.php/locomotives/j-holden/c53

 

 

https://www.gersociety.org.uk/index.php/locomotives/t-w-worsdell/g15

 

 

 

Jason

[dibber25]

Right, as you'll have seen the proposal is a 'J70' 0-6-0T, the prototype of 'Toby the Tram'. Six-coupled chassis potentially with full outside valve gear. However, it is unlikely that it could be modelled with full outside valve gear AND skirts, without being over-width. Preliminary discussions suggest that we are likely to need two different toolings, one with outside valve gear and another separate tooling with skirts and six-coupled chassis but without valve gear. For this reason we need to know if there would be demand for one or other version, or both. Clearly there's no point in tooling the outside valve gear version if the overwhelming majority want the skirted version or vice versa. However, if there appeared to be sufficient interest in both, then we would seek to do both. Subject to further investigation of the cost, we will also consider producing the bogie tram coach, as this is relevant to the & Kelvedon & Tollesbury line as well as the W&U and - subject to licensing - to a certain movie in which it ran with a '14XX' 0-4-2T. 

It is possible that the model would be supplied with the end 'doors' and windows separate, so that modellers could fit them open or closed. 

So, if you think you might buy a 'J70', which would you prefer?

Skirted or outside valve gear?

GER, LNER or early BR livery? 

I'm happy to collate e-mail responses headed 'J70 choice' addressed to me at

chris.leigh@bauermedia.co.uk

or by post to Model Rail, Media House, Lynchwood, Peterborough Business Park, Peterborough, PE2 6EA

This is NOT a pre-order or crowd-funding exercise and you are not committing to buying anything - merely helping us to decide how and if we take this forward as a firm proposal. (CJL)

[Butler Henderson]

Just a thought but if the valve gear plus skirt would be over width would not without a skirt over the valve gear potentially look odd as the valve gear would presumably stick into the line of, or beyond, the skirt above.

[EddieB]

Toby occasionally has aspects of both a Y6 and a J70, but for the most part he is a J70 and, as already stated, normally modelled on the incorrect 0-4-0 chassis (like mine is).

A bit like my old K's model in that respect!

 

Right, as you'll have seen the proposal is a 'J70' 0-6-0T, the prototype of 'Toby the Tram'. Six-coupled chassis potentially with full outside valve gear. However, it is unlikely that it could be modelled with full outside valve gear AND skirts, without being over-width. Preliminary discussions suggest that we are likely to need two different toolings, one with outside valve gear and another separate tooling with skirts and six-coupled chassis but without valve gear. For this reason we need to know if there would be demand for one or other version, or both. Clearly there's no point in tooling the outside valve gear version if the overwhelming majority want the skirted version or vice versa. However, if there appeared to be sufficient interest in both, then we would seek to do both. Subject to further investigation of the cost, we will also consider producing the bogie tram coach, as this is relevant to the & Kelvedon & Tollesbury line as well as the W&U and - subject to licensing - to a certain movie in which it ran with a '14XX' 0-4-2T. 

One big "like" for the loco, a second for the coach!  

 

Of course the coach will then require a J67 for the K&T, which will in turn require ex-ambulance coaches for the Elsenham and Thaxted...

 

 

PS Chris - did you grow up in Lincoln? (Nowt to do with this thread - just a name in an old 'ABC').

[MarkSG]

I've already filled in the form at Warley, so this isn't intended as a double vote! But I'd mainly be interested in one in any form in which it ran on the W&U; I'm less interested in one of the dock versions as I think it's unlikely I'd model that setting (at least in the foreseeable future). So that means a skirted version, since as far as I'm aware they always ran with skirts on the W&U.

 

I'm not too fussed about the era, and hence the livery, as if I do buy one it will almost certainly be for a standalone project and therefore not need to match the rest of my fleet. But if it was a GER version, I'd want the carriages as well as they'd be an important part of the overall appearance. Obviously less so for LNER and later.

[BillH]

My preference would be for a couple of J70s as they appeared on the docksides, without side-plates. If they were produced with the side-plates only would  they still have/need the prototypical 6 foot 8 inch wheel base?

[dibber25]

Just a thought but if the valve gear plus skirt would be over width would not without a skirt over the valve gear potentially look odd as the valve gear would presumably stick into the line of, or beyond, the skirt above.

It's a bit like the Class 08 situation, where the models tend to be wide over the rods. 'Scale' valve gear would be very small and fragile, so rods might well be thicker than scale and protrude more than they should, but once you put a plastic side skirt over it you'd be well over width because a 1mm plastic plate would scale 3in thick to represent 1/4in (or less) steel plate. That then has knock-on effects to the whole body width. All this is pure speculation, based on a couple of hours sitting round a table playing with a kit-built model and a motor or two and asking, "what if we did.....". If it turned out that we could squeeze everything in to one model, with the correct overall dimensions, I'm sure that's the way we'd do it. Just at the moment we have a lot of "what ifs....." (CJL)

[SRman]

How about a brass etch for the side skirts to keep the width down?

[DougN]

SRman and I were discussing this last night. My suggestion was panel in thin- ish plastic with a screw at each end with a clip in the middle so you could have it both ways! IF the cylinders are too close to the skirt might cause an issue. All options considered at this time! 

[45568]

I am sure that it would be cheaper to produce a 'skirted' model without valve gear, (as it would never be seen), this may be a considerable cost saving. Whilst it would be nice to see the working valve gear, cost may preclude this option?

 If it were the difference between getting a model J70, or not getting one at all, I would be happy with a skirted option. Early BR crest please!

(Count this as a positive vote please Chris!).

Cheers from Oz,

Peter C.

[trw1089]

I would vote for a skirted British Railways lettering one as being my preference and potential order.

[Bill]

I currently model S.R alternating with Innsbruck in HO and HOe -

So it should count me out but..

Upon reflection It would make a lovely model..

I see no reason why not to get one...

It could run well on the Innsbruck Tram  loop

Wisbech and Upwell are both to the south of Tyneside..

So yes--

I think some serious effort should be made for it to be delivered whilst we are all still living..

Generations came and went waiting for the USA tank

Could you persuade Bachmann or whomever you commission, to manufacture it in less than 18 months?

A year, although preferable, might be asking too much -

The models I would go for would be either or both of the two BR liveries

[Markeg]

I would buy the LNER skirted version.

 

I have the Bachmann HO Toby modified to a LNER J70.  It would be nice to have the coach too.

So put me down for at least one, maybe a tempted by a BR version.

 

Mark in OZ

[stewartingram]

Just a point from Chris' post:

He did say to email or snail-mail him, there was no mention of voting on here!

 

Stewart

[dibber25]

I'm quite happy to pick up comments from here, too. We really just need to get an impression of what people want. We think we know what will appeal to other modellers because it appeals to us but its nice to have 'gut feeling' reinforced with positive comments. To answer a couple of questions from above:

The 'USA' took a long time but let's not exaggerate! Within that time frame were not one but two false starts but we are happy that we got a better model in the end. 

Manufacturers take the time that they need to do the job. I understand that it was the USA and the S stock which occupied Bachmann's designers for a very long time, causing delays to other products. We certainly can't persuade manufacturers to do rapid turnrounds - and if we did, no doubt the end customer would be paying a lot extra for the privilege. 

The J70 project is under negotiation with Rapido Trains of Canada. Based on current performance they turn projects round in well under two years.

The materials used in construction would be decided by the manufacturer with due regard to the fact that this is a very small locomotive which needs to have its haulage capacity maximised. (CJL)

[The Stationmaster]

Well I'll definitely be in for one (with skirts) and happy with either of the BR liveries although I'd prefer the bicycling lion.  Overall I think it's a great idea and a lovely little engine which could turn up in all sorts of places in 4mm scale worlds.