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ex-Midland layout ideas in n


Coder Tim
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Hi folks,

 

I've pretty much abandoned the shed layout but I've learned two big things from it: 1) I want a layout that can run trains, sheds don't enthuse me enough, 2) I don't have the patience for handbuilt track in n.  Due to these takeaways I've designed a small station in n using peco code 55 parts that I will expand into a bigger system if this portion of the layout goes well.  I'd really appreciate a bit of feedback on the plan, if it would work and if it feels enough like an ex-midland station somewhere on the Aire-valley line?

 

In particular, I'm not sure about the bay platform, there aren't really any branches planned that it would serve, on the other hand having it would let me add that later, my current leaning is to remove it.  Plan below:

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Tim

 

post-26281-0-11601000-1480542933_thumb.png

Edited by Coder Tim
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Looks good, not unlike Cheltenham Lansdown (Midland) in some respects.    However the goods yard looks ugly and difficult to get in and out. Cheltenham's was up the line half a mile or so.  beyond a set of carriage sidings (loops) with a turntable    Cheltenham had the "branch" junction a few hundred yards down the line past the bridge.  The bay and parallel loading dock were connected with the down  (to low level) line and a few trains departed from the bat, more lurked there before reversing into the down main platform to pick up a through coach left in the platform by an express .

 

The Birmingham to Bristol line had a lot less coal traffic and more merchandise compared to the northern lines, however it did see the Garrats and GWR locos and some Southern locos off the Southampton MSWJR line.

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Those curved platforms look a bit uncomfortable to me.  I reckon those 2mm:1ft passengers might be taking a bit of a 'leap of faith' disembarking there, given the clearance that would have to be allowed to get bogie stock round a curve that tight (equivalent to the small radius streamline turnout on the inner line by the looks of it).  Then again, I know little about N so maybe it's not unusual in that scale.

 

Don't obstruct the parcels traffic with cattle. It is unlikely cattle would be handled on a 'passenger' platform.

 

The OP may be thinking about something along the lines of of this layout at Bakewell:

 

baqkewell(stan_roberts7.1957)old43.jpg

 

although as far as I can see the line passing to the left of the cattle dock in that photo isn't a passenger bay - it's fenced off from the main down platform, for a start.  End loading dock leading directly in to the station yard, maybe?

 

I doubt a station like that would have had a dedicated parcels siding.  Where is that quantity of parcels traffic going to come from?  More likely just a parcels office within the station building, I'd have thought.


On the other hand, of course Bakewell is nowhere near the Aire Valley.  Mind you, that line was built by the Leeds & Bradford so might not have had quite such archetypal Midland Railway station layouts.  I'm very, very far from knowledgable about this aspect.  Old Maps has reasonably good 1:2,500 maps of all the stations on that line, so that might be one place to do a bit more research.
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 I think for ease of access I would want the high level fiddle yard behind the low level one, while at roughly 12" radius the platforms would in my mind be far too tight, even 18" -24" looks and is tight in N when full length coaches (i.e. not short 4 wheelers) are used. If it were somehow possible to site the platforms on the straighter section with the yard on the curve this would be better but might prove impossible with standard Peco code 55 geometry.

 

Izzy

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Two three-ways and a single slip - that's beautiful :-)

 

Isn't it beautiful! I think I'm in love. What is even better is that it looks to me as if it is two different types of 3-way turnout. The furthest one looks like a tandem, whereas the nearest looks like a three throw! Exquisite .........

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Excellent feedback so far, thanks all!

 

I agree about the goods yard being ugly and difficult so I've moved it completely to the other side of the layout.  The bay has been left where it was as that line is most likely to have a junction, but I've connected it to the running line, never meant to have it coming off the loop but didn't realise I'd done it.  I really like the idea of expresses dropping off coaches as that would give a lot more variety to express workings which I was a bit worried about.

 

I've moved cattle to the opposite side of the parallel / end loading dock, thanks for pointing that out.

 

I didn't have anything specific in mind with the cattle but that is a fantastic image, thanks for sharing :)

 

Yep, swapped the low and high level fiddle yards, that should make a huge difference, makes the whole thing flow better as well.  I'm not keen on having the platforms on the curve either but it's the best I can do with a bad situation, given the space I have that curve has to exist and I can't find a better way to hide it.  The geometry doesn't work for having the yard in front of it, I can have the loop go round it instead of the platforms but that looks very "train-set-ish", I could cover the whole thing with a tunnel but then I'm losing a big chunk of my already limited space.  I have tweaked it though, I've now got the platforms extending onto the straight far enough to see the loco and first 1.5 carriages (or the last 2.5 carriages in the other direction) and then view blocks to stop the rest of the train being seen in a single continuous line, hopefully that will do the trick.  I'm also going to have the whole thing quite high up so viewers will be looking across rather than down on the trains which should help a bit too.

 

I'm not sure if I need crossovers before and after the station now that the loop is a little way down the line?  I've shown potential locations in green.

 

Any more suggestions very welcome!

 

Thanks everyone!

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In that configuration for authenticity you need protection for the bay / loading dock. (ie a point or one half of a slip to work with the trailing point onto the mainline - it can just lead to a blind spur) 

 

Slightly more subjective, how exactly is the goods yard going to be shunted? A train running in the clockwise direction (ie from high level to low level) would have to run right through and into the fiddle yard before reversing its train back into the yard. I think it would work / look better if the single slip / trailing point combo was moved such that it was directly after the three-way point. The loop line then just becomes a dead end shunting spur. If you keep the top (green) crossover then this can work with the slip / trailing combo to form the mainline run round facility you need for both bay passenger trains terminating at the station and for anti-clockwise goods trains to get into the yard. You would then have a goods signal box (opposite the three way point) and a station signal box working together which works quite nicely I think. (Sorry I can't quickly re-draw all that for you!)

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Good points that I hadn't noticed, thanks!

 

I've added a little headshunt to the bay, it will protect the main line and also make it easier to shuffle stuff around in the bay / dock sidings without fouling the running lines.

 

The next point was trickier, you're absolutely correct that a clockwise train would have to run all the way into the fiddle yard to access the goods yard, by the same logic so would a clockwise train wanting to terminate at the bay which would be unfortunate.  Between that and the need to run-around to terminate at the bay I think crossovers at each end of the platforms are a given so I've added them.  I'm not so keen on scrapping the goods loop though for a couple of reasons.  The first being that a separate goods loop beyond the station is, for me, very evocative of the time/place I'm aiming for.  The second reason is that shunting the goods yard in that situation would require an extra reversing move on the running lines, which I envisage being quite busy, in order to access the goods headshunt.  What I have done is reduce the length of the goods loop (which was bigger than would be useful anyway) and add a little extra run before the fiddle yard so that a train wouldn't have to go off-scene to access the goods loop from the down line.  I've also got crossover just after the station which would allow access to the loop at the cost of reversing onto the up running line if that was thought a useful thing to do in some situations.

 

Finally I've used the extra crossover at the bottom to branch off a pair of carriage sidings.  DavidCBroad's comment got me thinking that there is hypothetically (and hopefully one day really) a decent sized terminus at the end of the high level line and having carriage sidings for it out here would both provide visible stabling for stock not currently in use and create a source of a different type of train to the usual ones on this sort of layout which would add to the operational variety.  I'm thinking something like the way Calverly and Rodley had carriage sidings for Leeds City.

 

Thoughts or suggestions?

 

Tim

post-26281-0-74578300-1480774425_thumb.png

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The Carriage sidings look like overkill.   What sort of expresses reverse here?     A loop or two where the carriage sidings are would allow an engine to run round its stock non arrival before drawing back through the station into the bay.   Trains would not arrive in the bay.    Terminating Local would arrive in the main down (hill) platform, disgorge passengers pull into loop / siding, following main line train stops picks up connecting passengers and departs,  loco shunts local stock to bay for departure.   Departure may well coincide with or follow further arrival. 

 

I don't think stinking cattle and their copious slimy droppings would be tolerated that close to passengers,   A horse dock there  is much more likely with cattle consigned from the goods yard

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Gone in a bit of a different direction the past couple of days.  The original idea was for this to be the first station from a big terminus that would be modelled later, I wanted the terminus because I want to run large expresses and couldn't figure out how to make them interesting to operate in any other context but I don't really have the space for said terminus.  Thinking about how the carriage sidings would work made me realise that expresses would be interesting enough at the through station so I decided to have a go at re-designing the through station as the main feature of the layout.  The result looks much bigger but actually is quite similar, the only real functional changes are:

 

Platforms extended from 5 carriages to 7

Goods yard extended from 3 sidings to 6

Carriage sidings increased from 2 to 3 and a carriage loop added

Double track made into quad track, this causes most of the enlarged look and there are three reasons for it: 1) I think the operating patterns will need it, 2) I like the idea of parallel running trains, 3) the prototype I'm basing things on was four track

 

I've also narrowed down the prototype I want to base it on.  It is loosely a combination of Shipley where the quad track line splits into two double track main lines, and Calverly and Rodley which had smaller goods facilities and carriage sidings from Leeds City.  I'm assuming that Leeds City was even more confined than it really was and so there weren't any carriage sidings and ECS for anything that wasn't turned around immediately was run out to this station's sidings.  In the track plan below South Fiddle Yard represents Leeds City and the line South to London, North Fiddle Yard represents the lines North to Bradford, and Scotland via the Aire Valley and S&C.

 

Operating procedures as I see it would be:

 

London to Scotland Express

    Run train from South Fiddle Yard through to North Fiddle Yard.  Not very interesting but mostly a testbed for automated control.

Leeds to Scotland Express

    Loco comes to carriage sidings from South Fiddle Yard.  Marshall train.  Propel to South Fiddle Yard representing Leeds City.  Run through to North Fiddle Yard, possibly stopping to drop off a through coach or two

Leeds to Bradford Semi-fast

    As express but stop at station, collect Bradford through coaches if any

Leeds to Bradford Local

    As Semi-fast but make use of bay with option to let semi-fast overtake

Leeds to Aire Valley Semi-fast / Local

    As Bradford equivalent but reverse out of station onto Airedale lines

Scotland to Leeds Express

    Run from North Fiddle Yard to South Fiddle Yard, propel ECS into carriage siding, return loco to yard light engine or wait for more locos to form a convoy

Anywhere to Leeds Semi-fast

    As express but stop at station

Anywhere to Leeds Local

    Run from North Fiddle Yard to station, stop, possibly use bay to let faster train through, head to South Fiddle Yard

Excursion

    As semi-fast

Local freight

    Run from Fiddle Yard into goods loop, run round, drop wagons and assemble onwards wagons, run round again, return to main line and run to other Fiddle Yard

Block freight

    Run from one Fiddle Yard to the other.  Same lack of interest as London-Scotland Express, another probable use of automated background trains

 

As ever looking for potential problems or improvements and things I might have missed, my current plan would be to build the Airedale half and get that running then build the Bradford half.  I realise this looks really ambitious but the Airedale half is only one slip, one diamond, and eight points.  I've included a track plan of just that half as well as the full diagram:

 

 

post-26281-0-51730400-1480972643_thumb.png

post-26281-0-94471300-1480972658_thumb.png

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If you want "A1 gen", get a copy of "Rails in the Fells" by David Jenkinson, published by Peco Publications, ISBN 0 900586 53 2 in 1973, revised 1980.  Has station diagrams, traffic receipts, locos used, photos of everything between Kirtley 0-6-0s to Class 45s.

 

Three things: first, goods sheds were mostly on loops so that wagons could be moved at either end.  Second, cattle bays tended to be situated* at bays next to one end of a passenger platform, but fenced off and with a platform on the opposite side of the siding for the cattle.  This presumably was so that slurry etc was contained in as compact a space as possible, near the public entrance to Company land, and not spread all over the station yard.  Unlike some other lines, on the Settle and Carlisle pickup goods trains could access station yards in both Up and Down directions.  Third: the only facing points between Settle and Carlisle were at Appleby, northbound, for the connection with the line between Penrith and Darlington.

 

*i.e. at Armathwaite, Lazonby& Kirkoswald, Langwathby, New Biggin, Long Marton, Appleby West, Crosby Garret, Kirkby Stephen & Ravenstonedale, Horton-in-Ribbledale and Settle.

 

Hope this is of some help

 

Richard

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Thanks for the comments, they definitely help.

 

I have Jenkinson's "Modelling Historic Railways" and it's a goldmine of information, I'll check out the one you suggested, although I'm not actually modelling the S&C but the Airedale lines that led to it.

 

Yeah, Shipley goods, which I (loosely) based the yard on, had the shed on a loop but I couldn't fit it in, will try and work it in some how because now that you've mentioned it most of the examples I can think of from this size station are on loops.

 

I think the picture of Bakewell that ejstubbs posted earlier had the arrangement you described for cattle, helpful to have it described in words and to know that it was used closer to my chosen prototype.

 

I'm sure the facing point fairy keeps putting the things in my plans when I'm not looking, can't think how they keep appearing otherwise, certainly couldn't be user error on my part... Thanks for pointing it out, I think I've got rid of the last of them on my latest draft.

 

More generally I'm not happy with this version, it doesn't flow well and it's too crowded. I'm working up a twin track version instead of the quad track and it's looking a lot better, will post when it's done.

 

Thanks,

 

Tim

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Hi For my 10 pence worth. Given the list of traffic suggested all very good but I would suggest that much more freight is required - long coal trains and empties, Leeds consumed copious amounts of coal. parcels and van traffic as well.  The list looks like a sit and watch trains go by - model part of a station and yard and allow traffic somewhere to run uncluttered by trackage.

 

Or make the hidden sidings visible as on approach to city station and perhaps a hint of a loco shed and keep the hidden lines as just main lines - reversing how we normally visualise layouts ...

 

Certainly the 4 track version is too crowded , look forward to seeing future versions

Robert 

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Unlike some other lines, on the Settle and Carlisle pickup goods trains could access station yards in both Up and Down directions. 

 

My understanding is that this was a characteristic of the "classic" Midland station layout, not just on the S&C.  Bakewell on the Rowsley to Buxton line, as mentioned above, is an example of the typical layout, with trailing access to the goods yard from both through lines, with access from the up line via a single slip crossing over the down line:

 

gallery_23983_3473_48109.jpg

 

 Embsay on the Skipton to Ilkley line is another good example:

 

gallery_23983_3473_128157.jpg

 

fws036.jpg

 

fws011.jpg

 

Note also the goods shed on a loop, and the cattle dock off the end of the down platform, as at Bakewell.

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That is some really nice looking pointwork.  I hadn't seen a tandem 3 way on a main running line before - but that is just my huge inexperience I expect.  I assume that the loop beside the signal box is exchange sidings for a quarry or similar.  If had been designing it I would probably have put another point in the main line with a double slip on the siding/head shunt in front of the signal box. The 3-way pull  for the quarry exchange sidings at the other end  is interesting, as is the exit signal.   The quarry exchange sidings look as if they have been pushed in to a confined space.  It looks as if there is a another tandem three way at the far end of the goods yard as well? A really fascinating little station which could make a nice model and presumably not be too big.

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The first plan with the trailing crossover and single slip looked the nearest to being convincingly Midland to my mind. What's also highly characteristic is for the goods shed to be on a loop accessible from both ends, as in ejstubb's posting above. For the modeller, this has the drawback of being rather long - to be convincing, the goods yard loop (this is of course not a running loop) needs to be at least twice the length of the platforms. There was a high degree of uniformity to the layout of smaller Midland through stations, almost to the point of blandness - although of course exceptions can always be found.

 

The attached sketch shows two highly typical versions:

 

For a medium-sized through station, a trailing crossing with single slip leading to a pair of 3-ways, one of which gives a trailing connection into the nearside running line for access to the loading dock sidings next to the main station building (think of attaching or detaching horseboxes or milk vans from a passenger train); this layout also has a trailing connection to a lay-by on the off-side running line (the goods loop could be used as a lay-bye for the nearside running line - but the train setting back would run beyond the far end of the loop to set back - so ideally the visible section of layout wants to be three times the length of the goods or mineral trains you want to run).

 

For a small through station, a double slip takes the place of the pair of 3-ways and there are no lay-by sidings.

 

The 25" maps as found on the National Library of Scotland website are a mine of information - I've found the depiction of the track layouts at stations is pretty accurate, where they can be compared with other sources.

 

In N you ought to be able to do justice to the spaciousness of these layouts.

 

post-29416-0-14780600-1481391996_thumb.jpg

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I assume that the loop beside the signal box is exchange sidings for a quarry or similar.

 

Yes, the lower line at the right-hand side of the map above went to the Skipton Rock Company's quarry a bit less than a mile away.  The quarry also had a tramway which ran a few miles to a wharf at the end of the Thanet Canal (aka the Springs Branch of the Leeds and Liverpool Canal) in the shadow of Skipton Castle.  The canal and the tramway obviously pre-dated the heavy rail connection.  On the 1891 OS map the rail connection seems to run to a separate, perhaps newly-opened section of the quarry.  On the 1901 OS map the two parts of the quarry have met up, and there is a connection between the tramway and the rail line to Embsay station.

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I apologise for seemingly having hi-jacked this thread.  Thank you Compound2632 and ejstubbs for your fascinating posts.  I must go and visit Embsay and ride on the Embsay and Bolton Abbey Railway.  I find that this web site gives access to advice and interesting information on a huge number of topics.  Thank you again.

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Hi,

 

No worries about hi-jacking the thread, it's produced some really useful information.

 

I tend to agree with Compound2632 that the trailing point - slip diamond yard entry next to the platforms is a key Midland feature, and with ejstubbs that trailing access from both ends is another.  I've also thinned the trackwork out, removed the facing point, and put the goods shed on a loop.  Thoughts and impressions?  I feel like I could extend then goods yard loop towards the bottom of the image but at the expense of making everything look a lot more cramped.  I'm also unsure about the gradients down to the fiddle yard, I can get them down to about 1:60 and I'm not sure what kind of train could manage these, I'd ideally like to see Duchesses, A4s and Deltics pulling 14 coaches over the main lines from time to time.

 

Thanks again for all the help so far,

 

Tim

post-26281-0-26038800-1481489935_thumb.png

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Make the bay road straighter, Tim. There doesn't appear to be a reason for making it as curved as you've currently got it.

 

I'm also unsure about the gradients down to the fiddle yard, I can get them down to about 1:60 and I'm not sure what kind of train could manage these, I'd ideally like to see Duchesses, A4s and Deltics pulling 14 coaches over the main lines from time to time.

 

It's the goods trains you need to worry about, especially on something as horribly steep as 1:60.

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Good point about the bay, cheers, That one's easy enough to sort. I'm also thinking about extending the headshunt/trap at the bottom of the goods loop to make it possible to shunt the sidings without fouling the running lines.

 

Interesting that freights are the most likely to be problematic on the gradients, I wonder if I could use that to my advantage by keeping a loco in a spur somewhere for banking. It would add operating interest to through freights which I was worried about, not sure if it would work though.

 

Thanks for the reply,

 

Tim

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