Lamps!

[Wheatley]

Same solution as Vitalspark here, 1mm hole in the lamp with a smidgin of blutac in it, sitting on the lamp iron and changed as required. Flimsy plastic or etched lamp irons are usually replaced with cut-off staples for strength.

 

Same on brake vans, side lamps are permanently fixed (because they could be at either end, at least in theory,)but the tail lamps swap ends as required with a couple of sidelamp-less vans for fully fitted freights.

[The Johnster]

Same solution as Vitalspark here, 1mm hole in the lamp with a smidgin of blutac in it, sitting on the lamp iron and changed as required. Flimsy plastic or etched lamp irons are usually replaced with cut-off staples for strength.

 

Same on brake vans, side lamps are permanently fixed (because they could be at either end, at least in theory,)but the tail lamps swap ends as required with a couple of sidelamp-less vans for fully fitted freights.

 

Agree, the only reason to remove brake van side lamps would be to show the correct red light to the rear if they were lit.

[The Johnster]

If you have a look at Alan's page, he's 3D scanned my collection of loco lamps, had a play around and managed to print them with a slot that will fit etched lamp brackets. You can change them around to your hearts content then.

 

http://www.modelu3d.co.uk

 

This might well be the ultimate answer; thank you for making me aware of it.  Not too costly for a small blt either.  Where does one get the brackets?  I'm assuming that where my rtr stock has them the slot in the lamp will fit on to it, but some stock will have to be retrofitted.

[The Johnster]

With Locos, I generally use one for each duty, with the correct lamps fitted front and back, so it makes no difference which way it's travelling. Likewise, coaching stock are fixed in rakes, with tail lamps at each end. With goods stock, the brake van again fitted with tail lamps both ends. 

 

But if you have the lamps fore and aft on locos, rake, and brake vans, even showing the correct codes, your trains should be stopped by the next 4mm signalman for carrying lamps in between the headlamps and tail lamps on the brakevan, one of the incorrect situations that I moan about on exhibition layouts and what I am trying to avoid.  Always respecting Rule 1 of course, but this is not prototypical.  You can get away with it on a tailchaser where fixed trains run in one direction only, but even there you are going to have issues where any shunting or reforming of trains takes place and train classes are changed e.g. from passenger to ecs or vice versa. or locos become light engines

[The Johnster]

I've now obtained a couple of little 'supermagnets' to experiment with before I take the plunge and order a batch from supermagnetman, and some thin fridge magnets to cut up and glue to the back or bottom of my lamps.  I have nominated the 'B' set for the experiment, and it nearly works, but not quite.  The modified tail lamps will attach to the rear of the coach by the moulded bracket, and are easily removed; sadly a little too easily as they fall off when the train is moving (and I don't drive that roughly!).  Looks like the combination of a very small and weak area of fridge magnet and the interference of the plastic body, coupled with the mass of the whitemetal lamps, is a bit too much for a reliable mounting.  A near miss but no bullseye, so back to the drawing board.  And, as I've reverted to using t/l couplers, the powerful magnets have an effect on the steel coupling hooks similar to them having caught Annie and Clarabel in the bath.  Oh well...

 

I am taken with the idea of the modelu lamps, especially as the 'Lanarkshire' ones are focussed on the LMS or LNER types and I am modelling WR in South Wales.  These apparently have slots in the base and fit on actual brackets, and side lamps are easily obtained as well.  I know I have said that I am trying to avoid fiddly work as I'm not as capable of it as wot I used to was wont, but I think I can manage painting them white, or black for the side lamps.

 

In the meantime I'm going to continue to experiment with the 'something sticky' idea, pritt stick looking like something that is easily applied without making too much of a mess, is clear, and hopefully strong enough to hold the lamps on.  The modelu ones are 3D printed plastic and will be even lighter, so even if I cannot source the brackets or find fitting them to much of a faff, they are still the way to go and it is likely than all my lamps from now will be from modelu, not that my measly little order will make them millionaires.

 

I'll update when there is something to report, and I haven't totally discounted the pin and hole idea yet, just want to try something a bit less disfiguring to locos and stock first.  Thank you again all of you for the input; I have had some good advice and learned about suppliers I never knew existed, and am grateful!

Edited January 3, 2017 by The Johnster

[The Johnster]

Pritt Stick is easily applied, easy to clean off, and doesn't make a mess.  Doesn't hold lamps on any better than the magnets though.  It's looking more like Modelu all the time; anyone recommend a source of brackets, brass ideally, as I suspect the plastic ones on good rtr models are not designed for that amount of handling?

[Grovenor]

 

anyone recommend a source of brackets

See #26 above, staples like he said.

Regards

[The Johnster]

Yeah, staples.  Painted dark matt brown they should look ok.  Problem solved; thank you everybody for your input and holding my virtual hand through this tortuous process.

Edited January 11, 2017 by The Johnster

[The Johnster]

I have got round to ordering some lamps from Modelu (lovely easy website and painless ordering system, btw, well done), and am awaiting the postman.  Experiments will start soon, and I'll keep you posted.  The aim is to have brackets (staples) in the appropriate places on all vehicles that need them ultimately. but obviously priority goes to locos and brake vans, then coaches at the outer ends of rakes,, then XP vans and NPCCS, then XP opens.

[The Johnster]

They're here they're here they're here!

 

What are?

 

The lamps from Modelu, the lamps the lamps the lamps!

 

Where?

 

Here, here, here....

 

 

Ok, nurse, I'll settle down and take the nice medication now.   The lamps from Modelu have arrived and I am very happy with them, and the prompt service from Modelu (no connection, satisfied customer).  Today I are mostly... putting the final coat on the B set having finished the interiors last night, and then painting the new lamps.  Remains to be seen how many of the lenses I can stick in 'em without losing them.  The side lamps'll then go on the new toad where they can live permanently to hide the moulded side lamp irons that are about the only thing letting this model down visually (I gave it a light weathering tone done last night before I put the paint brushes away), and two of the head lamps will be permanently attached to the auto.  Then, and not necessarily today, we can begin experiments to work out a detachable lamping system that works for Cwmdimbath.

 

Current thinking it to drill holes in them to accept staples used as brackets, but there may have to be 3 types, one with a hole in the bottom to accept a staple vertically mounted on a buffer beam, smokebox top, or the recess in the bunker top on the 56xx, 5101, and 4575, one with two holes to mount on the rear of bunkers or vehicles so that they do not turn upside down as the train moves along, which means the bracket consisting of 2 staples, or pins sticking out of the back of the lamp body engaging in holes in the bunker/vehicle, and possible a third stuck with Pirtt or something to proper brackets where those are provided on more modern locos.   Earlier experiments with Pritt were a failure; the lamp stuck on but fell off when the train moved, but these are lighter than the Springside cast whitemetal ones, and on a bracket which has a side and bottom face such as on locos, it might work.  This means that storage has to be thought out, as there may be 5 or 6 storage boxes needed to cater for head and tail of all types of fitting; we'll see.

 

Actually, I can save two head lamps by using Springsides on the auto.

[The Johnster]

Also need to start thinking about targets for freight trains (Tondu didn't use them for passengers or autos). U21 for the twice daily mineral working, U24 for the pickup, and probably that's all as I can't see that the Remploy parcels would have been part of a freight working, more likely to have spent the rest of it's day on passenger work.  The actual targets, probably brown painted discs with white lettering, need to made up and a method of attaching them to the lamp irons or staples devised.  This should be easier, as they are bigger and easier to handle than the lamps!

[The Johnster]

Today I are mostly, putting the lenses in; didn't manage that yesterday.  B set finished painting and awaiting end of month pension to order transfers for numbers (and 'Tondu' for the brake van) from Mr Isherwood at Cambridge.  The lenses will be probably enough for today; fine work exhausts me these days and modelling when you are exhausted usually ends badly.  Plan is to put a bit of blutac on the end of a small screwdriver to hold the lenses and secure them with a spot of poly glue.  They are sticky back from the backing sheet they come on, but I don't feel confident relying on that for items which can so easily become lost if they fall out.

 

Browsing Google images of Tondu station yesterday evening and found photos of 42xx on coal trains with Tondu targets; white discs with black or possibly brown lettering, which makes life easier.

[sigtech]

Hello Johnster, I have also gone down the staples route for lamp irons, nearly all my rolling stock has them now - locos, coaches, brakevans all fitted npcss and freight wagons,with just a few exceptions on recently manufactured items that already have decent metal lamp irons fitted to them. The lamps are all by 'Springside' with 0.9mm hole drilled in the base using a pin - vice and a small piece of 'blacktack' inserted into the hole. This way I can show the correct headlamps, taillamps and sidelamps where necessary, - it is fiddly and a time consuming process - Sproston being a terminus, but I considered it important to try to do things 'correctly'. - I did this before the advent of 'Modelu' lamps.

Regards

SIGTECH

(Steve).

[Torper]

I'm not sure which is worse - having no lamps or having the Great Big Hand of God coming down from the sky at frequent intervals to do clumsy things with tiny lamps.

 

DT

[The Johnster]

Hello Johnster, I have also gone down the staples route for lamp irons, nearly all my rolling stock has them now - locos, coaches, brakevans all fitted npcss and freight wagons,with just a few exceptions on recently manufactured items that already have decent metal lamp irons fitted to them. The lamps are all by 'Springside' with 0.9mm hole drilled in the base using a pin - vice and a small piece of 'blacktack' inserted into the hole. This way I can show the correct headlamps, taillamps and sidelamps where necessary, - it is fiddly and a time consuming process - Sproston being a terminus, but I considered it important to try to do things 'correctly'. - I did this before the advent of 'Modelu' lamps.

Regards

SIGTECH

(Steve).

 

Thank you Steve.  That ginger fellow looks a bit of a character; greetings in Welsh to him from Taliesin, my station cat, Shw'mae, butty, shwd wych chi?

 

I've done the lenses now and am very chuffed with the final appearance of the lamps, though the bases will need touching up as I painted and lensed them on the sprue. The brake van side lamps will be glued, not strictly correct but allowable for daytime working.  I would seriously suggest your having a look at the Modelus; painted and lensed they look vastly superior to the Sprinsides, which are suddenly clumsy, toylike, and overscale in comparison.  The Modelus look like railway lamps, only small.  There is of course the issue that you have to paint them, not the end of the world, and put the lenses in, which was a very fiddly and faffy job for someone like me with sausage fingers.  The method of holding them with blutac wasn't as effective as I'd hoped, as they are mounted on sticky strips which are not easy to prise them off onto the blutak.  They are also lighter, being plastic, and will be easier to drill as well.  As they are so light, I am going to reprise the Pritt experiment, which will make life easier if it can be made to work; a pair of tweezers to attach or remove and away to go.  I

 

f it doesn't work, then plan B is for staples.  Do you have holes in the bottoms of all your lamps or do some have holes in the backs.  If they are just in the bottoms, presumably staple lamp irons on the backs of bunkers/tenders, vehicles etc. have to stick out a tad more than scale to accommodate the thickness of the lamp body between the vehicle and the hole where the staple is inserted.  I was thinking more in terms of having a hole in the back of the lamp body for this sort of location, and the staple sticking out horizontally, but doubt I could live with the appearance.  

 

Cheers, mate, more when I've finished playing with the Pritt!

[The Johnster]

I'm not sure which is worse - having no lamps or having the Great Big Hand of God coming down from the sky at frequent intervals to do clumsy things with tiny lamps.

 

DT

Well, I've already compromised on the Hand of God for operating points and signals, as well as uncoupling and removing or placing wagon loads.  I try to avoid doing clumsy things with tiny lamps, but am hoping to develop a handling system involving soft plastic tweezers with jaws modified with milliput to sort of act as lamp shaped holders to aid attachment; this is at a very early concept stage, but the idea is to 'impress' a lamp shape into each side of the milliput modified tweezer jaws while the milliput is still soft, and, as the lamps are very small and light, it should be easy to hold them.  It may, given the lightness of the lamps, even be possible to milliput-modify a modeller's screwdriver to fit over the top of the lamp and be able to pick it up, place it on the bracket or Pritted area, remove it when the train runs into the terminus for attachment to the other end, and carry on like that.

 

I think it's worth the faff if I can develop a reasonably easy and reliable handling system; my chubby hands are not the tools for this job!  it is a railway-like thing to do, and therefore worthwhile and  satisfying on that basis alone, and IMHO lamps properly used give meaning and purpose to your train movements in the same way that signals do.  I try, with varying degrees of success, to operate Cwmdimbath as a real railway, as far as I can to the 1955 Rule Book, because that to me is the prime purpose of the model, to recreate the workings of a real, if imaginary railway as they would have been if the railway had been built in the form in which I model it.  It isn't a model railway, it's a real railway, only small. 

 

Anyway. I'm going to give it a go.  If it doesn't work, no harm has been done and I'll have to revert to having lamps fixed permanently to my locos and vehicles and live with them being wrong an/or misleading most of the time, and I'll know I've done my best!

 

Having no lamps at all is not an acceptable solution to me in the long term, so, to answer your original question, having no lamps is definitely worse than the Hand of God whatever form it takes.

Edited July 23, 2017 by The Johnster

[The Johnster]

I've come up with the solution to the storage box for head and tail lamps with different fitting if necessary; I have a pill box, the sort with compartments with different days to help you with your medication, that has been replaced by a better one, and is ideal for the job!  This might be starting to come together!!!

Edited July 23, 2017 by The Johnster

[sigtech]

Hi again Johnster - I drill the hole in the base of all lamps, and so that all lamp irons on the stock are fitted to allow the lamps to sit correctly, I normally put a lamp onto the staple when superglueing it into its final position - this allows me to arrange a fraction more distance between the back of the lamp and the coach/brakevan/loco or tender to which it is fitted, - call it 'wiggle room'...! The distance is not great, and I find it is not really noticeable, once the lamp iron is painted matt black.

Completing all my stock took several days - but it's a job that in theory you only have to do once - after that it is a case of only new stock additions requiring work.

The same goes for adding passengers, have now completed nine coaches - almost 100 passengers having to be painted and amputated/adusted to fit, with three coaches still to do, after that it should go quiet...

 

Will be interested to see how you get on, and the final method you adopt.

 

Regards,

(SIGTECH)

Steve.

Edited July 23, 2017 by sigtech

[The Johnster]

Thank you, Steve, this is very encouraging, as the Modelu lamps are a little smaller than the Springsides, so it should be relatively easy to arrange staples that do not look as though they are sticking out to far.  If the distance is correct, I should be able to mount the lamp properly vertically on it's staple bracket and have it supported by the back of the vehicle.  Your point about positioning the bracket with the lamp in place on it when supergluing it to the vehicle's surface makes complete sense, and of course makes the handling easier as well.  Why on earth was I thinking about drilling holes in the backs; this is the way to go about it!  Described like this, I can see how the staples, not far off their correct position anyway, would look fine painted black, or even green or bauxite depending on the surface they are being glued to.

 

Like the meerkat says, simples, but I'm not sure I'd have thought of it myself!  Again, many thanks!

[sigtech]

Hello again - when I was trying to decide how to arrange for adjustable lamps on rolling stock, I decided the system had to be reasonably robust - hence the decisions to replace in nearly all cases the lamp irons that are factory fitted, with staples - as they are extremely forgiving and cheap, the only difficulty is bending them to the GWR/WR profile.

It is possible however.

A small amount of new rtr does have more accurate and stronger (metal) lampirons, these have been retained only if it is possible to 'ease' them out from the body slightly.

 

I also have a station cat, - ALL stations should have one in my view! 'Jack'(not very original..) can be seen lying on a large packing case sunning himself, in front of the GWR corrugated iron pagoda shed situated on the stations parcels dock..

 

Regards

Steve.

(SIGTECH).

[The Johnster]

Yes, I can see that staples, or anything metal, is a lot more robust than the plastic lamp irons, which are clearly not designed to take that sort of abuse for long, it at all.  

 

Taliesin also sits on a packing case, a smaller one on top of a pile of general stuff that lives in my goods depot, a grand name for a single 5-wagon road that has a loading dock.  His perch is also next to a a pagoda, Will's, which is a storage overnight lockup as there is no shed and everything is out in the open.  Black and white chap, very laid back and never impressed much with anything.  Likes his brain tickled, though. 

[Chris Chewter]

I'd also recommend the Modelu lamps.  I was quite pleased to see a slot allowing them to be placed on lamp irons, although I can imagine constantly changing them over might get quite fiddly!.  Personally my preference is to stick on lamps permanently and blame the fireman for getting it wrong!

 

 

The photo shows the Springside lamp to the left and the Modelu lamp to the right.

[The Johnster]

I'm very pleased with my Modelus and will not be buying any more Springsides (sorry, Springside, after years of faithful service), and glueing them on and blaming the fireman and/or guard may be what I end up doing; it is what drivers did mostly anyway!  We, of course, blamed the drivers and everybody blamed the signalmen.  The system's success or failure will be predicated on two things, the ease of drilling out the bottoms of the lamps and fitting them to staple lamp irons, which other people have done and seems a fairly simple matter on a layout with 7 locos and about 35 other vehicles to fit the irons to, and developing a simple and effective handling system.  As it now appears all the lamp irons can be vertical, which of course they should be anyway, storage is simply a matter of keeping separate boxes of heads and tails; sides will be permanently fixed to the brake vans.

 

But in a sense I would rather have no lamps and imagine them, in the same way that I imagine the steam and that the track is the correct gauge, and that passengers open and slam doors, and that guards blow whistles and wave flags, than have incorrect headcodes or wrongly displayed lamps that bother me.  This demands a system in which all the locos can haul all classes of train, and that all vehicles except unfitted or non-XP rated freight ones can be marshalled at the back of trains, at will.

 

If the system cannot be made to work, it will because I cannot solve the handling issues.  I will then have to revert to glueing lamps on, which means that:-

 

. Only locomotives lamped for that class of train can be used on that class of train

. As this is a terminus, locos and rakes will have to be lamped at both ends, which is incorrect and not permitted in the 1955 Rule Book.

. Brake vans will have to incorrectly be lamped at both ends.

. Only lamped vehicles can be on the ends of trains.  This is particularly restrictive in the case of parcels and NPCCS trains which do not run in rakes and do not necessarily have brake vans at the ends.  A parcels composed of, say, 3x BG and a BY, would have tail lamps on both ends of all vehicles, which even if you overlook the other issues looks just plain wrong!  A vanfit which is the tail vehicle of a parcels must have a tail lamp glued to it, and it's next appearance may be in the middle of a pickup freight.

 

Thank you for pointing out that Modelu lamps have a slot for attaching to irons; mine were still on the sprues and I hadn't realised.  Just cut one off and attempted to fit it to the iron on the smokebox top of a Baccy 4575; it is too tight a fit and there is not much plastic there to ream the slot out.  I will need to investigate to see if the slot is too narrow, in which case it can easily be taken out a bit on the inside side, or too short, in which cast I will have to either take the iron down a little or replace it with a staple.  Either way I will not have to now drill holes in my lamps and fill them with blutac, a job, and an opportunity to mess things up, saved, another +1 to Alan Modelu.  Thank you.

Edited July 24, 2017 by The Johnster

[The Johnster]

Righty ho, some progress despite a stomach bug earlier in the week which destroyed my mojo (all better now, but still a bit weakened).  Rapesco no.13 staples are a good fit for the slot under Modelu lamps, made for Rapesco or Rapid brand staplers.  The lamps fit securely over the ends, are held firmly without being able to rotate, and are easy to remove, almost as if they are designed for each other.  I still need to either work on some of the 'scale' lamp irons such as the ones on the Baccy 4575 mentioned, or replace them with the Rapescos.

 

As there are a lot of staple lamp irons to fit, it will probably be worth making up some sort of jig to aid their correct bending into a consistent shape, but the final form of this shape is not yet fixed and determined and will be the result of trial and error playing.  I will be playing with the lamps and fitting trial staple irons later today, after splicing a new Hornby curved point into the fiddle yard approach which will ultimately lead to a fiddle yard width extension, and will need, I think, 3 forms, a dog leg 'flat on' iron to fit to the ends of stock, a similar dog leg 'end on' iron to fit to bunkers for loco lamps, and an L shape 'end on' one for buffer beams and smokebox tops, and for spare lamps carried on the running plate facing sideways.  The first type needs to be produced in some quantity, about 60 at an estimate, and it will worth a jig for these!

 

Onwards and lampwards!

Edited July 30, 2017 by The Johnster

[The Johnster]

Ok, haven't made any progress with this for a while, with the new scenic break bridge occupying most of my modelling time when I was in the mood, following which I've had a bit of mojo restoring recuperation while doing a bit of operating instead.  But I had a bit of a play with the staples this evening.  

 

Loco chosen as guinea pig was 4145, as it will eventually be when I renumber it, Tondu's only 5101, delivered new to the shed in 1946 and modelled in G W R initials unlined green to represent that state, heavily weathered as it's now the early 50s.  First hurdle was separating the staples off individually from their strip that they come out of the box as.  I assume they are glued together, or perhaps it's the plating, but the idea that I could cut them away with a craft knife soon proved not to be a flyer.  There is a way to do it, which I found by trial and error, mostly the latter, with brute force (not my strongest point) and ignorance (ah, now we're playing to Johnster's strengths).  You have to grab the end one with a long nose pliers, but only just or you'll pull 2 off, and pull with a sort of slight twist; a single staple should come away in a squared off U shape like 3 sides of a rectangle.  Took me about half an hour to produce about 50, and of course each staple should produce 2 brackets, so I've probably got enough to be going on with; if I haven't, there's still nearly 2.000 staples in the box...

 

My initial plan was to cut them down to the right angled corners with about 2mm legs and superglue one end flat across the loco's front plating and the smokebox top with the other leg sticking up to put the lamp on.  Using the ones on 4585 as a visual guide, I managed to fix 5 staple/brackets to the loco in this way, 3 on the front plating, 1 on the top of the smokebox, and the top one on the bunker sitting in the little recess provided for it in the bunker top plate.  But it was very fiddly, and took me the best part of 2 hours.  One has to dap a spot of s/glue where the bracket is going, and then poke and prod it into place; I was using cocktail sticks to do this, making sure it is upright and pointing the right way as well as in line with it's friends next to it, and if you haven't got it right by the time the s/glue's gone off, you've got to start again.  Putting the s/glue on the lamp is a recipe for sticking it to your finger.  They look a bit crude compared to the proper Bachmann ones on the small prairie, but I'm hoping this will be less obvious when they are painted and weathered in.  And I don't know if they will prove robust enough to withstand a bit of handling yet!

 

No more will be done in this way.  For the remaining 3 on the lower bunker, I drilled holes, and simply glued the bottom leg of the staple/bracket into them.  This provides a much more secure and strong fixing.  I was a little concerned as to whether the twist I would have to provide in the loco ones in order to fit correctly into the slots under the Modelu lamps would be practicable, but it proved easy; you hold one of the legs in the pliers as a vice and simply turn the other one radially through 90 degrees by hand pressure before trimming them to length.  And in any case, it looks from tonight's experimentation as if it is possible to mount the Modelu lamps the 'wrong way'; they still sit on the end of the staple/bracket firmly and safely, despite the profile of the bracket being across the slot rather than along it.  So all will now fit by being s/glued into drilled holes, 90 degree bent brackets on bunker and vehicle rears and straightend out and twisted ones on loco fronts.

 

But enough for tonight!  There are 4 more locos to do, no, 3, as the Baccy small prairie and Hornby 42xx have functioning brackets as supplied and the 64xx is dedicated to the auto and has a Springside lamp glued on permanently, and then the stock.  Few of these have proper brackets, and of course the unfitted ones don't need them.  Some don't even have moulded brackets to show you where to put the functioning ones.  A slight disappointment is my new Hornby toad, excellent model in every respect except this, with proper brackets that are unfortunately not strong enough to be functional and need replacing.  Brake vans and passenger/NPCCS will be priority, but over the next few sessions all vehicles that need lamp brackets should see them fitted both ends, yay, proper lamps carried!

 

Brackets on freight vehicles, including the ones on brake vans, were painted white and showed up even when they were badly weathered; this means that I will have to finish off such brackets neatly with a proper shaped end to them, bit of extra work with a file.  There seems to be no need in the event to make up jigs.  One would hope that any new stock will come with functional brackets fitted, but I already know that's a forlorn hope in the case of the Hornby toad, which I need a couple more of, and there are always secondhand bargains.  But at least I now have a workable system to provide such vehicles with the means to carry the correct lamps (until I start getting into slip coaches...).

 

Now to find a way of lighting them, with a slight flicker of course...

Edited September 9, 2017 by The Johnster