Does anyone here use Railcommander ?

[pctrainman]

Hi , I am in the very early stages of setting up DCC4PC's Railcommander software and am confused by one or 2 things most especially the Nodes, if anyone has any hints or tips i'd be most grateful .

[RailCom_Fan]

Hi , I am in the very early stages of setting up DCC4PC's Railcommander software and ... if anyone has any hints or tips i'd be most grateful.

 

From personal experience with the multiple versions I have used (Including the Current version 0.2.1 that is now 4 years old), my tip would be to ask for your money back ASAP, because RailCommander just can't do what is claimed for it by DCC4PC.

 

The Manual is out of date, and doesn't match the current release (That is now 4 years old).  The claimed "planned features" (Section 1.1 on Page 1 of the Manual) have not materialised since v0.2.1 was release 4 years ago.

 

It is supposed to be able to control Signals.  Well, it might be able to set the Signals to blue, green, red, yellow, or any thing you like that your Decoder can do.  But, you can't get RailCommander to set the signal for one block, based on the occupancy of any other block.

 

RailCommander is supposed to have a Scripting Language that can do wonderful things.  I suggest you ask DCC4PC haow to get the one in the RailCommander Manual to work in v0.2.1.  I asked, and they never chose to show how to do it (It is something that you are supposed to be able to do, but the manual doesn't cover it).  I asked DCC4PC for Sample Scripts.  Guess what, none came.

 

RailCommander is supposed to be able to automatically run trains around your layout, including switching Points/Turnouts.  Well, RailCommander sent my train down a Dead-End track to avoid a train stopped in the Block/Zone that was in front of it.  I reported that.  Guess what, I'm still waiting for a reply, 4 years later.

 

RailCommander can actually simulate your layout.  But, don't try to ask it to Control the signals, because it can't.  I asked how to do that.  Oh, that's right, I'm still waiting for a reply, 4 years later.

 

It was me that caused version 0.2.1 to be released, when I reported an issue that they actually did something about.

 

 

For whatever reason, the people at DCC4PC have done nothing for their Customers that rely on what comes out of their website for over 4 years.  What's that I hear you say:  "Surely that can't be right!"

 

Have a look at this page on their website:

-     http://dcc4pc.co.uk/progress_to_date.html

 

You should see something like this:

 

Their own Progress to Date page, shows that the last time they updated their website was over 4 years ago.  Only God knows what they have been doing, because they haven't told the bulk of their customers.

-  No text on the Progress page

-  No new products to purchase from Coastal DCC

-  No new versions of RailCommander to download with the features they show in Section 1.1 of the Manual

 

There is a post on this forum somewhere, that says they have been working with some Americans on a 15 to 20 Year Project.  So, 4 years down, and only another 11 to 16 more years for the rest of their customers to wait.

 

Like I said at the start of my post, I suggest you ask for your money back ASAP.  Or, learn to become very Patient.  Or, put the DCC4PC products into your Last Will and Testament, in case your Grandchildren are able to get something out of them (Assuming DCC4PC are still in business in 16 years time).

[pctrainman]

Wow that's quite a stinging attack, as to whether it's warranted or not I am unable to say because of my current position regarding progress , I do know for a fact though that DCC4PC are about to release their switchboard to the public and it will boast 64 not 48 inputs/outputs , Ialso believe that their command station is also very close to release but only time will tell I guess .I have not yet purchased Railcommander as i'm using it under the free 100 hour trial period .I have spoken to Ray at DCC4PC on quite a few occasions but I tend to stray off into things other than what I need answers to as he's a really lovely man to talk to .They are a tiny company but then almost all of the big names are also in terms of employess rather small so I make allowances for that , I do appreciate that waiting for things can be very frustrating look at how long it took Lenz to release the LH200 command station .I am still interested to hear from anyone using Railcommander succesfully or not .

[RailCom_Fan]

Wow that's quite a stinging attack...

 

Hmmm, @PCTrainMan says that my response is "quite a stinging attack".

 

My first and last paragraphs were my personal opinion, because @PCTrainMan asked for "any hints or tips".  After re-reading my post, I believe the remainder is independently verifiable:

-  I have already proved that the DCC4PC website hasn't been updated for over 4 years.

-  You can check the Coastal DCC website here (http://www.coastaldcc.co.uk/products/dcc4pc/)

 

 

Then if you still think that RailCommander is worth your time evaluating it, create this layout in the RailCommander Simulator:

To test RailCommander:

-  Set it up as shown in the drawing.

-  Ensure the Point (Turnout) is set for straight through.

-  Ensure Block Control is turned ON in the Simulator.

-  Drive Loco 1 Forward from Block 4 (RailCommander calls them Zones), to Block 1, clearing the Point.

-  Drive Loco 2 Forward from Block 3 towards Block 4.

-  RailCommander's Block Control should stop Loco 2 when it Enters Block 4, because:

   - The Point is set for Straight Through

   - There is a Train in Block 1 so it is not Clear to proceed

 

What RailCommander did for me was:

-  Change the Point (Turnout) to the Diverging Route, and

-  Send Loco 2 down the dead end Route.

(This issue was reported to DCC4PC, and no resolution was ever advised to me)

 

I believe there are many other issues with RailCommander that were reported, but no resolution was ever released.  I also believe that there are some scenarios that remain untested.  Given that they are more complex than the above, my expectations are Low.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like RailCommander, and the existing DCC4PC products, for what they could be in the future.  What they are at the moment is incomplete and inadequate for the tasks they are marketed as suitable for by DCC4PC.

 

Which is fine - I knowingly purchased a Work-In-Progress.  However, DCC4PC committed to getting a specific Layout to work, by a specific date.  I was assured of certain things, and then left high and dry by DCC4PC.  They decided to work with their American Customers, and never advised me that they were no longer going to resolve the issues I reported, in the timeframe they committed to (I have all the email messages, if you don't believe me).

 

If their American customers were paying them more money than I was going to generate, and they needed the cashflow to stay alive, then that's fine.  But to say nothing, and silently renege on their commitments is extremely problematic.  I believe I said to them that they should be ashamed of themselves.  If DCC4PC will do that to one Customer, what is to stop them do it to many more Customers?

 

Indeed, that is exactly what they have done.  Nothing has changed on their website for over 4 years!  So, everyone (Like me) that purchased DCC4PC products believing that they could gain experience with them, while they were also being developed, might now be extremely disappointed.

 

You said yourself:  "I have spoken to Ray at DCC4PC on quite a few occasions..."  I'm guessing that you feel he is a genuine person.  You also said:  "I do know for a fact though that DCC4PC are about to release their switchboard to the public and it will boast 64 not 48 inputs/outputs".

 

So, you could continue to play with RailCommander, and wait to see what happens.  I'm betting that you were not given any specific date for release of the DCC4PC Switchboard.

 

But, consider for a moment, the value of the DCC4PC Switchboard.  The invention of DCC significantly simplified Layout wiring, and removed lots of switches to control how power was supplied to various blocks of track.  The control of Points (Turnouts) was also significantly simplified.  Now, most things could be done with no more than 6 main wires around the layout:

-  2 for DCC control of Mobile Decoders,

-  2 for DCC control of Accessory Decoders (If you wanted to segregate the 2 main functions), and

-  2 for Power to operate Accessories (If you didn't want to power them from a DCC bus.

 

So, given that, why would DCC4PC go back to the 'Dark Ages', and create a product that caused you to run up to 192 wires to 1 central location (Each Input/output has up to 3 wires).  DCC allows you to have very short runs of cables to Accessories.  You have 1 Accessory Decoder, that (Usually) can control more than 1 Accessory.  So, you locate it near the things it is going to control.  Why would you deliberately create something that reverted to a Centralised model (And a Wiring nightmare?), like we had with DC.

 

The DCC4PC Switchboard isn't available for purchase yet.  If it is ever released, and it sells, then that will be because it fills a need for people.  The fact that it will be the only one on the market will give DCC4PC an advantage with customers that need just that.  I just feel that their time would have been better spent doing things they could sell to a large number of customers.  Maybe their American customers have paid a lot of money for it already.  Who would know?

 

 

If you still feel my response to your question is "quite a stinging attack", then I'm sorry, but I didn't cause any of the faults with the DCC4PC products - I just identified them for DCC4PC to resolve.  And, 4 years later, everyone checking the DCC4PC website for resolutions to their issues is still waiting.  These things are just facts.  If you feel that me stating these facts is "quite a stinging attack", then I apologise for trying to save you the same pain I went through.  Please feel free to spend as much of your hard-earned cash as you like on DCC4PC products.  But, others might like to wait, and see what happens.

[pctrainman]

I am already experiencing some of that pain in not understanding exactly how Railcommander is supposed to work which is why I asked the question "do you use Railcommander"  don't get me wrong i'm very grateful to you for giving  your honest opinion and thoughts  but it does not help me in coming to grips with the Program .

[RailCom_Fan]

I ,,, am confused by one or 2 things most especially the Nodes, if anyone has any hints or tips i'd be most grateful .

 

OK, while I haven't said that the Manual is anything other than out of date, it is also not a great example of a document that was written to be friendly to people who are not (For want of a better word) a 'Nerd'.  But, i will see if I can help you anyway.

 

The word 'node' is used frequently in Sections 3.4, 4.3 & 4.4.  The term 'node' can most easily be described by looking at the picture in Section 4.4 on Page 7, shown below for simplicity:

 

As you can see, this enlarged version has Blue & Grey 'nodes'.  If you like, another name for these 'nodes' can be 'handles', because you can grab them, and move the thing they are on the end of around.  But, they also have a special purpose.

 

RailCommander is primarily meant to be a Layout Automation tool, using RailCom information obtained from the DCC4PC 'RailCom Reader' ("RailCommander allows users to create, edit and run layouts using a PC" - Section 1 of the Manual).  Some people here think that RailCom & RailCom+ are the same thing - They are not!  RailCom is fully documented, and available to everyone on the NMRA website as Standard 9.3.2 (http://www.nmra.org/sites/default/files/s-9.3.2_2012_12_10.pdf).  RailCom+ is proprietary, and uses RailCom to allow Command Stations to get information from newly railed rolling stock that has a RailCom decoder fitted (One use is to automagically load into the Command Station every function that the decoder is capable of).

 

So, given that RailCommander is designed for Automation, it needs to know about your Layout!  So, you take standard pieces (There are about 4 - Points, Scissor Points, Crossings and Zones - A Zone can be either Straight or Curved), and you draw out your layout.  But, so that RailCommander can work out where a Train can go, you need to connect these all up together.  As you need to connect the 'nodes' together, they are either Grey (Not Connected), or Blue (Connected).

 

Just to confuse things, put a Zone onto the layout (it will be a Straight Line).  Now, use your mouse to point anywhere on the line How about the middle), then left click-and-hold, then drag the mouse around.  Can you see that you now have a NEW 'Node'?  And, just to confuse you, it is Grey (Not Connected).  However, it really IS connected, and therefore might be better as Blue, but I didn't write the software, I just provided DCC4PC with feedback.

 

OK, now if you aren't a 'Read-The-Manual-First' kind of person, you might try dragging one Grey end-node onto another Grey end-node, then drop it when it is superimposed over the one you didn't drag.  It looks fine, but it is not!!!  In Section 4.3 (Page 6), it says:  "To link two zones, click and drag one of the zone's end nodes onto one of the other zone's end nodes while

holding the Ctrl key down".  This is actually incorrect English, but DCC4PC are actually in Scotland.

 

So, now when you Control-Drag 1 end-node onto 1 other end node (Not the 2 described in the Manual), these will join, and RailCommander now knows that it can get from one Zone to another Zone.  Points, Scissor Points & Crossings are considered as if they are Pseudo Zones (The Simulator will move a Loco into any of these, and out of a Straight or Curved Zone).

 

Don't, whatever you do, get any of this wrong, because there is no 'Undo' Function!!!  Save Often, before you make a mistake.  When you do save, don't expect the window that opens to look or work like a normal Windows 'Save-As' Dialogue box!

 

To help you along, I have attached the Oval I suggested you try.  To make it work easier for you, I have used 9 Zones, instead of 5, because RailCommander wants to span 2 zones, as a Loco moves from one zone to another (Which is what would normally happen on a Layout).  Have a look here:

 

 

Remove the ".txt" extension from this file, and you can then open it in RailCommander:

Oval_9 Zones.rclt.txt

 

Now, in case you haven't got this far with RailCommander, here is what you need to do to run a Simulation:

A  -  Open the above ".rclt" file

B  -  From the View Menu, select Tack Editor

C  -  Note where Zone 4 & Zone 7 are

D  -  From the View Menu, select Tack View

E  -  From the Block Control Menu, tick On Enable Block Control

F  -  Click the Simulator button to start a Simulation (It will look 'Clicked in' when it is On)

G  -  Right-Click on the track for Zone 4 (An 'Assign Locomotive' should pop up)

H  -  Click on Assign Locomotive

I  -  Click on the word (None), then select Loco 2

J  -  Click on the OK Button (The Loco triangle will be pointing Left - That's OK for now)

K  -  Right-Click on the track for Zone 7 (An 'Assign Locomotive' should pop up)

L  -  Click on Assign Locomotive

M  -  Click on the word (None), then select Loco 1

(If you want to crash RailCommander, select an already assigned Loco!!!  Yes, one of the many issues I reported, that they did nothing about.  Normally, Windows would show already assigned Locos as 'Greyed Out', but not in RailCommander.  I guess they just want to be different!?!?!)

N  -  Click on the OK Button (The Loco triangle will be pointing Down, which is the Opposite Direction to Loco 2)

O  -  Right-Click on the Loco 1 triangle, and select Swap Orientation

P  -  On the View Menu, select Throttle

Q  -  Click on the word (None), then select Loco 1 (Move this window out of the way, or you will get grumpy in about 3 seconds!)

R  -  On the View Menu, select Throttle

S  -  Click on the word (None), then select Loco 2 (Move this window out of the way.  And, now you know why!!!)

(I have 3 x 24" Portrait monitors side-by-side, so I have lots of screen space available to do these sorts of things)

 

You should now have RailCommander looking something like this (If you don't see the Labels, don't worry)...

 

 

OK, are you ready to see the simulation run?

1  -  Since Loco 2 is in front, move the slider Upwards in the Throttle window for Loco 2.  As you do, the needle will increase from Zero.  Set it at (Say) 40.

2  -  Now, move the slider Upwards in the Throttle window for Loco 1. As you do, the needle will Increase from Zero.  Set it at (Say) 50 (About 10 Faster than Loco 2).  Soon, Loco 1 will catch up to Loco 2, and you will see that RailCommander expects there to be about 1 empty block between Occupied Blocks.

3  -  Now, move the slider Downwards in the Throttle window for Loco 1. As you do, the needle will Decrease towards Zero.  Set it at (Say) 30 (About 10 Slower than Loco 2).  Eventually, Loco 2 will catch up to Loco 1, and you will see that RailCommander expects there to be about 1 empty block between Occupied Blocks.

 

OK, now that you have seen RailCommander work as it should, are you ready to see RailCommander be stupid?

1  -  Press the Red Stop signs on Both Throttles

2  -  Right click on either Loco, and select Swap Orientation

3  -  Repeat for the other Loco

4  -  Now, advance one throttle to (Say) 40, and the other throttle to (Say) 50, and watch the Point (Turnout) very carefully!!!

5  -  As the Chasing loco catches the one in front, watch what happens to where RailCommander sends the Chasing Loco.

For whatever reason, it switches the Point, and sends the chasing Loco into the dead-end.  Then, when the Leading Loco comes around again, RailCommander switches the Point again, and now you have just 1 Loco running around the Oval.

 

Would you be happy to pay for software that does that?

Would you be happy to still have the problem 4 years later?

 

 

OK, now let's look at the Usability of RailCommander...

1  -  Go to the Track Editor window

2  -  Start a New Layout

3  -  Put 1 Straight Zone on it

4  -  Right-Click anywhere on the Black line, and select 'Curved Line'

5  -  You will now have a straight line, with 'nodes' on each end, and 2 diamonds between the 'nodes'

6  -  Click & Drag the center piece of the Zone up or down.

7  -  Now, timing how long it takes you, try to make the Black line into a nice 90 Degree bend.

(There is no need to post how long it takes you, if indeed you ever get something you are mildly happy with)

 

So, not only is the manual extremely terse, there is no tutorial supplied (Another issue I raised), and there is no simple way (Say using a Radius and Degrees) to create a curved piece of track for RailCommander.

 

The Icing on the cake is a Point.  Put a Point onto your layout, and try to figure out how to rotate it (Say) 90 degrees.

(There is no need to post how long it takes you, if indeed you ever figure out how to do it, before giving up in disgust)

 

 

I will give you one more thing to ponder.  Pick ANY Windows application you have.  When you close all it's windows, is the Application still running on your Computer?  You can tell whether it is or is not, by what you see in the Task Bar & SysTray at the bottom of your PC.  The Task Bar is the Left portion, that has larger Icons in the example I have provided.  The SysTray is the Right-most portion, which includes the Clock, the Date and various notifications.

 

Have a look at this...

#1 is before RailCommander starts - No RailCommander icons at all.

#2 is after RailCommander has been started - There is an icon in the Task Bar, and another in the SysTray

#3 is after all RailCommander windows have been closed - The Task Bar icon has gone, but it is still actually running, because it is still in the SysTray.  You need to Right-Click the icon, and select Quit, or your "100 hour trial period" will disappear very quickly!!!

 

 

RailCommander might look & work exactly how DCC4PC want.  But it does not conform to Windows standards for how a Windows application should work.  To see another example, look at the 'Save As' dialogue box.  This departure from the Windows User Interface standards was reported to DCC4PC, as well as the impact on my own "100 hour trial period", but, as you can see, nothing has changed in 4 long years.

 

As a person with 40+ years of Software Engineering experience (Including 10 years in Software Testing), I should point out that there is absolutely no requirement for a Software Engineer to make any changes, as long as they verify that the product they built conforms to its Specifications.

 

Given that I showed you how to Crash RailCommander above with just a simple slip/error, and that I experienced a different Crash while writing this, it's hard to see how the application crashing would be something that RailCommander is supposed to do, according to its Specifications!

 

I trust that I have provided sufficient information for you to make a more in-depth evaluation of RailCommander than you have been able to do so far.  And, yes, it really is after 3AM now.

[pctrainman]

I think another wow is in order as you've obviously spent a good deal of time answering my request and i'm very grateful to you for that , I now understand the purpose of the Blue nodes is as terminations or boundaries between the railcom zones  , I did have a track diagram that my son created in railcommander but a laptop MOBO failure led to me building a conventional desktop PC and using that instead , I tried to import the saved "saves from the old HDD ( new SSD in new PC ) but I cannot find anything that will open rclt files ?.I think your admirable intro to railcommander is perhaps the only example anywhere on the web and i'm wondering whether the administrators on here would wish to highlight it in some way .

[RailCom_Fan]

... I now understand the purpose of the Blue nodes is as terminations or boundaries between the railcom zones. ... I think your admirable intro to RailCommander is perhaps the only example anywhere on the web and i'm wondering whether the administrators on here would wish to highlight it in some way .

 

Hmmm, I'm glad I was able to help you out @PCTrainMan.  But, I'm not sure that this message needs to have some form of "highlight".

 

It is in fact, an introduction that starts part-way through the process required - Where you had got stuck.  So, for that reason, it's not a complete Introduction, and therefore (IMHO) not worthy of being highlighted in any way.

 

Why was a special 'Introduction' needed in the first place?  Only because DCC4PC didn't do their job properly!  IMHO (Again), the DCC4PC products are the best RailCom Automation solution on the market for English-Speaking modelers (I'm excluding any in German, because I can't read that language).

 

 

Now, have a look at the number of people who have responded to your question - One!!!!!!!!!!  Clearly, there is only a limited number of people interested in what you and I are trying to do, despite the 126 views of this thread.

 

I was asked to write a RailCom introduction for an American online magazine in 2015.  They said that most of their readers struggled with setting CVs in their decoders, so it would have to be quite simple.  It appears that it's easy for Railway/Railroad Modelers to get stuck in a rut, and not challenge ourselves to learn new things.  Teachers these days talk about "Life Long Learning".  This is primarily aimed at creating a flexible workforce that has the skills required, as the job market evolves.  Doctors researching dementia and Alzheimer's disease believe that keeping the brain active is a great defense against Ageing.  So, I use my trains to challenge my brain.

 

I don't do me-too projects, like creating yet another Command Station.  I do things that nobody else is doing.  But, I leverage off the success of others, and use their work like building blocks.  I was taught by my Karate Sensei that as a Student, I was expected to become better than my teacher, or I was being disrespectful.  Then, I was expected to help other students coming along behind me.  These days, many people have the attitude that they can pay money, and get whatever they want/need.

 

To create my layout, I had to build my own Extended Accessory Decoders.  Accessory Decoders have 2 States - On or Off for 1 or more Functions.  Extended Accessory Decoders have up to 32 States for 1 or more functions (How else can you model some of the complex Signals these days, with umpteen aspects and some of them flashing).  So, I have had to learn how to program Microcontrollers.  And, I wanted them to be RailCom decoders, so I had to learn how RailCom worked too.  I implement mainly in Assembler, but I use the Arduino for prototyping and non-time-critical tasks (Such as layout animation - Again, so that the layout isn't dead, except for the trains running around).

 

 

Whether there is a large or small demand for a RailCom Automation solution isn't relevant to me, but it seems paramount to other Members of this forum (I won't name them, lest their blood pressure goes through the roof again).  But, allow me to explain why that's exactly what I want (And maybe what others might get value out of too, if they knew it existed).

 

I don't want to write a rigid Timetable for Trains on my Layout.  That might exist on the Prototype, but my layout is a Model, and I want to have FUN.  I have never lusted after pretending that I'm a train driver, acting as if I was sitting in the cab.  I just want to be able to drive a Loco, and have the Automation create the Traffic around what I'm doing.  I have over 100 DCC Locos, with about 20 on the Layout at any one time.  If I can manually attend to only 1 or 2 at any moment, then my Layout is effectively 'Dead' if there are only 1 or 2 Locos actually running.

 

By having 10 to 15 trains finding their way around the Layout by themselves, there is a lot to challenge me, and I need to work to drive a train around my layout.  I need to watch the Signals.  I need to stop at stations to drop off and pick up passengers.  I need to drop off and pick up freight.  I need to refuel and change Locos.  And, I need to concentrate because other trains are coming and going around what I'm doing.  To me, this is FUN!!!

 

If this sort of experience could be created only when there are extra/lots of humans driving the other trains, that's going to limit the times per week/month/year that I can have FUN!!!  So, I get a computer to help me out.  That way, as many Locos as I choose can be on Automatic, or on Manual.

 

So, now you know - I'm a Control Freak who wants to play God on my Layout!!!!!!!

 

Now, if DCC4PC would just fix RailCommander so that it works properly, I would be a happy train God!

 

 

Have a great Christmas!!!  

(Sorry for rabbiting on in this post!  But, it looks like nobody else is worried about what the 2 of us talk about here.)

[pctrainman]

I did'nt see it as

 

rabbling in fact I found it interesting and yes we do in many ways want the same thing  , for me the primary reason for automation is because of the effects of a damaging Stroke that make mobility  rather difficult to say the least but i'm not one to not at least try  to do what I want even if it means I have to turn to Railcom, enjoy your xmas and new year .