Hughes Bros & Styles 0-6-0 Class 4 LMS Loco and Tender

[bertiedog]

From the other thread       http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/117701-hughes-bros/

(Thanks to Re 6/6, John)

 

From a purchase on Ebay, a very rare brass kit of an LMS 4f from Hughes Bros & Styles, of Wallington, Surrey, England.,,,,,"Manufacturers of Model Railway Accessories" ,... Made in England, described on the box as ....

 

A kit of parts for the complete superstructure.

 

These were once sold by Hamblings , where I did see one in the 1970's, complete and running in full LMS passenger livery!

 

The kit as it stands now is complete, and it includes a Zenith/ Rowell motor, a five pole enclosed frame type, but with an external gear set.

 

It has a complete set of three rail wheels with it, manufactured by Romford, all cast mazak versions of the still made wheels.

 

It also has a set of LMS transfers, I think Methfix type, which may still work. The transfers are in a META bag, the type used by Hamblings etc.

 

The parts are said to be "All necessary parts are cut and formed to shape"

 

The parts are in quite good condition and the assembly is not as bad as the Ebay photos imply. It needs a lot of attention to cleaning excess solder and tidying up the original assembly started long ago, and abandoned.

 

The quality of the parts is very good indeed, some screwed together with 14 BA bolts. Some parts like the steps have riveted on angle section, and the splashers are solid pressings. The parts are stamped out, not etched or sawn.

 

The tender has neat side frames with cast axleboxes, that have been put on at one time with cold solder, the cellulose based cement, They never held on, and need low melt solder to attach correctly. The tender wheels are Romford three rail as well,

 

From the insulted frame spacer under the frames at the front, I would expect the loco to be intended for outside third three rail operation. It can of course be set up for two rail, with new Markit or Romford wheels.

 

The chassis is made of thick 1.5 mm brass, with no wheel bearings added, and conventional square frame spacers, which I think Hughes introduced. The nearest estimate of production is from 1950/52, a  period when several rivals produced early kits.

 

Photos to follow after a bit of a clean up of the parts in an acid/ammonia bath to clean the brass a bit.

 

The Hughes kit appears to be of higher quality than most of the period, and resembles the methods of Stewart Reidpath in there semi RTR productions. The motor is good quality, a five pole with ball bearings on  each end of the shaft. Normally referred to as Rowell, these were made at Zenith Motors, the armature is identical, as is the magnet. The motor runs fine but needs re-magnetising due to age. This will cut the current down, which is quite low anyway,

 

Stephen

 

 

 

[bertiedog]

Nothing seems to come up on the net about Hughes Bros & Styles, or references in Graces Guide to engineering companies. Wallinton had and still have some small engineering companies in the area.

 

Does anybody know of any adverts in the Model Press for this maker?

 

The box it came in has no sales labels od price stickers still in place, they look like they were torn off the box, which has a faded green paper cover sheet over the brown cardboard, which extended over the sides, where there may have been further printed information.

 

Even the box bottom half appears to have been covered in the pale green paper finish. The box is restorable with care, a bit torn at the corners, but can be reinforced and re covered in the same paper. The top can be scanned and re-printed to make a reproduction box as well.

 

The Transfers are Methfix type, as they have no support surround and are printed in reverse. Despite the age they should still work, they are in 100% clean condition, for LMS yellow shaded lettering. as far as can be made out from the reverse. These are very carefully cut out and placed in position, and soaked with meths to remove the paper, leaving the ink on the paint. The positioning is critical, as they are difficult to move once on the paint. They can be pre soaked and floated into position, but it needs very great care not to break up the ink. The advantage of the type is they snug to the paint better, and have no varnish surround like the waterslide ones have. On a gloss finish they are near perfect.

 

Stephen

[Il Grifone]

Are the transfers the same as the type that used to be known as 'varnish fix'? IIRC the method for these was a thin coat of varnish and then press down the transfer and leave to dry. When dry soak off the paper.... Mt youthful attempts at this process usually led to to one or more letters shifting or falling off.

[Golden Fleece 30]

Varnish and Meths fix are the same to me David. The Dublo replacement ones I bought were initially put on with varnish on the transfer back and left overnight to dry before washing the top paper off. I got fed up of waiting so used meths instead and done in about 15 minutes or less. It certainly helped if a transfer was used that was not for its original job like loco or tender lining. With varnish I had to wait till the next day to put the next piece on but with meths the whole job can be done in a couple of hours. You used to be able to get what was called Gold Size for varnish fix ones, we had a supply at the carriage works for old style ones, maroon stock and presentation crests before the newer self adhesive ones for blue and grey coaches came out.

 

Garry

[bertiedog]

I don]t think they are varnish type as the paper looks like it is coated with gum arabic. There cannot be much difference though in practice. There are a few spare numbers to experiment on though.

The motor cleaned up well, but needs a re-mag at some time.

The main thing that makes it look ropey are the poor handrails, it deserves new ones with proper knobs or formed from hall filed wire. The tender rails are OK, but need tidying up.

[bertiedog]

The gold size mentioned with the transfers is usually Japanese Gold size, a tung oil based varnish. but diluted PVA will do as well.. It is the glue used with gold leaf to attach it to the surface.

 

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

The Brass in the kit is not responding to being cleaned with my usual Citric acid/ ammonia mix, I suspect that there is a layer of tarnish and oil, that resists it, so a soak in Xyllene thinners for a while to remove any trace of oil, then a bath in boilng water, before transfer to Clock brass cleaner, hydrochloric acid, nitric, sulphuric and soap and Ammonia, and soda, in a weak solution. This is a classic cleaner for brass parts. Some will not clean well, the tender frames etc, that needs abrasive to remove marks etc and the cold solder remains.

After that it is a lot of scraping and chiselling to remove the old excess solder from the joints.

 

Stephen.

[Il Grifone]

Thanks to you both.

 

Perhaps that was my problem - the wrong varnish (probably coupled with impatience)....

 

'Methfix' and later 'Pressfix' solved all the problems.

 

I don't know if these have a shelf life - quite a few of mine are printed, "P.C. Models".

 

Desoldering braid might help with removing excess solder. At least for larger items that don't run the risk of being detached.

[bertiedog]

Although I do not want to update the loco kit, it still needs extras like brakes and better handrails etc., tender coal rails, and cab beading, washout plugs, lubricators and sanding gear.

All were fitted in the 1940's from commercial parts from Sayer Chaplin, SME, ERG, Hamblings etc., so It's very fair to fit them. Cab beading can be wire, filed down to scale height, with strip around the cab cut out. SME made wash out plugs, and Sayer did lubricators and sandboxes in brass, as well as plated white metal brake shoes.

I will add proper bearings to the frames as well..

There is little point in any cab detail as the motor back occupies the space, but figures willl help cover that up.

[bertiedog]

Parts before the major cleaning started, not as bad as Ebay shots. The steps and fine parts are not in the shots, the rods are stampings in Nickel Silver. The wheels are not drilled and tapped for crankpins.

 

 

 

 

 

The brass L sections in the tender appear to be original, to allow disassembly of the chassis from the body, common in older kits to ease painting.

 

Stephen

[bertiedog]

The parts are cleaning up now, I do not want to rush it and end up with an etched surface!

Do the 4F have the side handrail on the left, (front) contained in a tube? Can't find a drawing for a 4F at present.

 

Stephen

[Il Grifone]

The parts are cleaning up now, I do not want to rush it and end up with an etched surface!

Do the 4F have the side handrail on the left, (front) contained in a tube? Can't find a drawing for a 4F at present.

 

Stephen

 

That does appear to be the case.

 

http://www.docbrown.info/docspics/ArchiveSteam/loco44422.htm

 

I have to confess ignorance as to the function of all this pipework, which appears to be a common LMS feature. I assume it's something to do with the boiler water feed.

[kevinlms]

That does appear to be the case.

 

http://www.docbrown.info/docspics/ArchiveSteam/loco44422.htm

 

I have to confess ignorance as to the function of all this pipework, which appears to be a common LMS feature. I assume it's something to do with the boiler water feed.

But care is required. Midland built 4F's were right hand drive, but later LMS built ones were left hand drive. The photo of 4422 is an LMS built one (like the model), but earlier ones would have the pipework on the other side. This confused Lima when they made their old HO model, who put one on each side!

 

This is an ex-Midland loco.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LMS_Fowler_Class_4F#/media/File:LMS_0-6-0_freight_locomotive,_4129_(CJ_Allen,_Steel_Highway,_1928).jpg

[BernardTPM]

The 1978 Hornby Jinty had this feature as a separate moulding. It was also on their Fowler 2-6-4T, interestingly the opposite hand.

[Il Grifone]

The 1978 Hornby Jinty had this feature as a separate moulding. It was also on their Fowler 2-6-4T, interestingly the opposite hand.

 

I've just bought a couple of these (for the 2-6-4T). but the seller appears to now be out of stock.

 

The Lima 4F has reversing rods on both sides. They undoubtedly confused Midland and LMS examples. The Midland used right hand drive and the LMS wrong left hand*.

 

* See below

 

I shall have to decide whether my 4F (resin body) is to be MR or LMS, but having the above parts it looks like the choice will be LMS. At present she has a Tri-ang tender, which will probably clinch the matter. (A flared top and coal rails would be rather time consuming....)

[bertiedog]

As the rebuilt chassis has proved a good runner, the wheels are being altered to Markits with 2 rail, as it will allow running on the layouts rather than just demonstration three rail or outside third rail. The motor is re-magnetised with the home made coils, and works much better now. All parts bar the wheels are original in the chassis or contemporary part types like the Sayer Chaplin Brake shoes.

The tender is next and little to do, apart from clean up and detail the footplate area, and after painting fit a coal load. It will need coal rails made from strip and wire, no etchings.

The Loco will get a cab vent, and some beading on the edges and roof, this sort of detail would have been expected to have been added by the builder working to Roche, Skinley, or Hamblings drawings or photos, or from MRN magazine articles and drawings.

 

Stephen

[bertiedog]

A bit of progress, the old solder is cleaning up nicely, some stubborn with a Dremel wire brush very lightly applied to the brass.

Most details to be added have been done, and the loco run under power with a third rail outer shoe attached. The Markit wheels will have to wait on cost, but are simple to swap over.

Very quiet indeed, you can barely hear the motor running at normal speed.

Trying to find better drawings or photos for the fine details.

 

Is there a popular dedicated book on the 3F/4F etc?

 

Stephen

[bertiedog]

The tender is now near complete, with the uninsulated wheels, the axle boxes being delicate castings it was decided to glue them as before, not risk solder, but with a good epoxy glue. All the other parts are soldered with medium melt 148c solder , so as not to disturb the older joints too much.

The screw heads in the sides of the tender will be soldered over with low melt and filed and sanded flush. The tender needs no extra weight, it runs smoothly as it is. Foam is then glued into the coal space, with a dressing of real coal over it, and a floor of card to prevent glue getting down to the brass floor.

 

Soon be time to clean all surfaces and spray with primer and undercoat, then a satin black cellulose finish, and then see if the old 1949/50's transfers will still work.

 

Stephen