New player in the market - Monocacytrains

[davetheroad]

Take a look at this, another bluetooth implementation

 

http://monocacytrains.com/

[BG John]

On the home page, they say "Powered through the track or a battery", but in the FAQs they say dead rail is possible, but don't recommend it.

 

It has less features than Deltang, and the receivers look as though they will be more expensive by the time they get to the UK. And it needs one of those annoying phone things, rather than nice friendly knobs and switches.

 

Is there a danger of ending up with lots of incompatible systems, and in time most of them disappear, leaving a lot of people with obsolete systems?

[Robin2]

The risk of most of the systems becoming obsolete is very high. And, much as I like it, I don't think Deltang is immune from that.

 

I think it was generally accepted that Betamax was better than VHS - but that did not ensure its survival.

 

As far as I can see the Monocacy (how do you pronounce that?) system plays the sounds on the phone - interesting idea.

 

I noticed a review in BRM (Feb 2017) for "Piko Smartcontrol" that seems to use a gadget with the innards of a phone that also has a speed control knob on it. It occurs to me that it ought to be easy to make a small Arduino device that would add a "knob" to a regular phone over a Bluetooth connection. With a bit of ingenuity it should be possible to make it clip onto a phone.

 

...R

[davetheroad]

How do you define obsolete in this case?

 

I use Deltang  and it does what I want, plus I have enough 'spare' equipment to keep me going for as long as I am capable of playing trains, plus being firmly based in the RC hobby technology may give alternatives if Deltang ceases production.

 

BlueRail and the new Monocacy boards suffer from having the hand eye coordination problem and they need a tactile feedback control interface.

 

It appears Protocab is crippled by incorrect design decisions and sky high prices.

 

Monocacy boards are smaller than BlueRail but do they have the necessary battery monitoring that Deltang have and BlueRail have promised

[Robin2]

How do you define obsolete in this case?

I understand. I'm sure some people are still using Betamax players (and I don't mean that as a criticism).

 

I think I meant "obsolete" in the sense that they will stop being a commercial proposition for the manufacturer.

 

...R

[BG John]

Which means for users that when it needs repairs, or they want to add more receivers, they'll have to scrap the system and buy something else.

[peanuts]

I understand. I'm sure some people are still using Betamax players (and I don't mean that as a criticism).

 

I think I meant "obsolete" in the sense that they will stop being a commercial proposition for the manufacturer.

 

...R

Betamax was used by the tv industry as standard for portable cameres due to the better quality pictures untill the advent of digital cameras hence vhs recordings from the public always looking inferior when shown on tv 

[davetheroad]

Which means for users that when it needs repairs, or they want to add more receivers, they'll have to scrap the system and buy something else.

 

It is not as simple as that. If you can't get a receiver repaired you have the option of using a different manufacturer for that loco.  The only problem would be if you wanted to double head it. So no need to scrap the existing system. You could have  several manufacturers products as each transmitter/receiver combination  can run on the same layout.

[CME and Bottlewasher]

Take a look at this, another bluetooth implementation

 

http://monocacytrains.com/

Thanks for Posting. Im wondering if this tech is going to end up like DCC pre NMRA standards though??

 

On the home page, they say "Powered through the track or a battery", but in the FAQs they say dead rail is possible, but don't recommend it.

 

It has less features than Deltang, and the receivers look as though they will be more expensive by the time they get to the UK. And it needs one of those annoying phone things, rather than nice friendly knobs and switches.

 

Is there a danger of ending up with lots of incompatible systems, and in time most of them disappear, leaving a lot of people with obsolete systems?

Im inclined to agree....please read on....

 

  

How do you define obsolete in this case?

 

I use Deltang  and it does what I want, plus I have enough 'spare' equipment to keep me going for as long as I am capable of playing trains, plus being firmly based in the RC hobby technology may give alternatives if Deltang ceases production.

 

BlueRail and the new Monocacy boards suffer from having the hand eye coordination problem and they need a tactile feedback control interface.

 

It appears Protocab is crippled by incorrect design decisions and sky high prices.

 

Monocacy boards are smaller than BlueRail but do they have the necessary battery monitoring that Deltang have and BlueRail have promised

Good points well made. Deltang seem like a safe bet at this time. Protocab looks very trick, yet there appears to be holes in its execution and certain questions left unanswered by the manufacturer, plus it will cost more than Deltang systems...

 

 

I understand. I'm sure some people are still using Betamax players (and I don't mean that as a criticism).

 

I think I meant "obsolete" in the sense that they will stop being a commercial proposition for the manufacturer.

 

...R

I dont believe RC will become obsolete, per se, the tech has (and will continue to improve) improved and miniaturised and has embraced new methods and operating systems. There is an issue, with smaller cottage industry suppliers, in that longevity may be an issue, when compared to, eg. Digitrax for DCC. If we strip everything down-go back to basics-as good as DCC is, its pretty complex really. RC can, potentially, do all of the same things as DCC, simply - getting rid of track power makes life so much easier in the larger scales. With eg. HD (safe) LiPo batteries that can be charged onboard (ie for 7mm) lots of perceived issues with RC start to fade. So RC could yet boom. Garden railways also open up as an option for more modellers and become a lot easier to build, run and maintain even in 4mm, with RC.

 

There is the issue though that w/o standardisation (ie NMRA for DCC-and that aint perfect either) then if a manufacturer goes bust then problems could arise. Even w/o such a scenario if RC takes off for rly modelling things could get untidy if standardisation isnt adhered to in some form or another.

 

Exciting times though!

 

Atvb,

 

CME

[BG John]

It is not as simple as that. If you can't get a receiver repaired you have the option of using a different manufacturer for that loco.  The only problem would be if you wanted to double head it. So no need to scrap the existing system. You could have  several manufacturers products as each transmitter/receiver combination  can run on the same layout.

True, but annoying if you're nicely settled into the routine of operating your layout with one device and a single system.

 

I'm actually thinking of using Deltang for my decent/expensive locos, and cobbling something together from cheap RC cars for anything else I might knock up that's less important/valuable, so would need more than one controller.

[BG John]

I dont believe RC will become obsolete, per se, the tech has (and will continue to improve) improved and miniaturised and has embraced new methods and operating systems. There is an issue, with smaller cottage industry suppliers, in that longevity may be an issue, when compared to, eg. Digitrax for DCC. If we strip everything down-go back to basics-as good as DCC is, its pretty complex really. RC can, potentially, do all of the same things as DCC, simply - getting rid of track power makes life so much easier in the larger scales. With eg. HD (safe) LiPo batteries that can be charged onboard (ie for 7mm) lots of perceived issues with RC start to fade. So RC could yet boom. Garden railways also open up as an option for more modellers and become a lot easier to build, run and maintain even in 4mm, with RC.

 

There is the issue though that w/o standardisation (ie NMRA for DCC-and that aint perfect either) then if a manufacturer goes bust then problems could arise. Even w/o such a scenario if RC takes off for rly modelling things could get untidy if standardisation isnt adhered to in some form or another.

That's why I've no intention of using DCC. One of the first things I decided when I got back into modelling was to use DC until I could switch to RC. I'm seriously thinking of RC for my O gauge layout, and if I go for it, I'll almost certainly use Deltang. It seems to me that using established RC technology adapted for railways is a much safer option than a system designed specifically for railways, until a standard is adopted. I also want a basically simple system, which is effectively wireless DC, with the option to add more complexity if I choose. I imagine RC for railways will eventually have all the features of DCC, plus more, and I can't be bothered with that.

[Robin2]

I dont believe RC will become obsolete, per se, the tech has (and will continue to improve) improved and miniaturised and has embraced new methods and operating systems. There is an issue, with smaller cottage industry suppliers, in that longevity may be an issue, when compared to, eg. Digitrax for DCC. If we strip everything down-go back to basics-as good as DCC is, its pretty complex really. RC can, potentially, do all of the same things as DCC, simply - getting rid of track power makes life so much easier in the larger scales. With eg. HD (safe) LiPo batteries that can be charged onboard (ie for 7mm) lots of perceived issues with RC start to fade. So RC could yet boom. Garden railways also open up as an option for more modellers and become a lot easier to build, run and maintain even in 4mm, with RC.

 

Interesting stuff here.

 

I certainly did not mean that RC would become obsolete - only some (most) of the existing implementations of it.

 

The paradox is that battery-power is probably less necessary in O Gauge because the larger vehicles should pick up track current more reliably. IMHO it is N-Gauge where it is most needed because current collection is more difficult due to the small size. At the moment I think Deltang is the only equipment small enough for British N-Gauge - especially if you want everything in the loco and/or tender.

 

The Americans have the advantage that their N-Gauge models are much bigger simply because the prototypes are much bigger. And models of diesels have a nice rectangular body space.

 

...R

[CME and Bottlewasher]

That's why I've no intention of using DCC. One of the first things I decided when I got back into modelling was to use DC until I could switch to RC. I'm seriously thinking of RC for my O gauge layout, and if I go for it, I'll almost certainly use Deltang. It seems to me that using established RC technology adapted for railways is a much safer option than a system designed specifically for railways, until a standard is adopted. I also want a basically simple system, which is effectively wireless DC, with the option to add more complexity if I choose. I imagine RC for railways will eventually have all the features of DCC, plus more, and I can't be bothered with that.

I agree about Deltang and to a certain extent-if I read you correctly-Protocab. Other RC has developed along the lines of; Transmitter, Receiever, Servos, Speed-Control & Power Pack. Improvements in tech and Frequency/range have come along. The main difference with RC trains, is, unlike boats a/c, cars etc; steering. Whilst we may not need ultra developed 'train based RC systems', I would welcome standardisation/set of standards of sorts.....

 

 

Interesting stuff here.

 

I certainly did not mean that RC would become obsolete - only some (most) of the existing implementations of it.

 

The paradox is that battery-power is probably less necessary in O Gauge because the larger vehicles should pick up track current more reliably. IMHO it is N-Gauge where it is most needed because current collection is more difficult due to the small size. At the moment I think Deltang is the only equipment small enough for British N-Gauge - especially if you want everything in the loco and/or tender.

 

The Americans have the advantage that their N-Gauge models are much bigger simply because the prototypes are much bigger. And models of diesels have a nice rectangular body space.

 

...R

I agree. Its all relative though, as Ive written elesewhere, the bigger the model the bigger the power/energy requirement, thus the bigger the battery and in that regard 7mm is tricky (as are some battery tech/formats in terms of safety/reliability/output). 7mm and the tyranny of track power/cleaning, esp. with garden railways, is an important consideration for me for 7mm locos & stock.

 

ATVB

 

CME

[fallen]

One of my concerns with systems that use phones as controllers is that the life span of a phone is very short. People change to a new one every year or three, and what happens to the railway if next year's phones have a different operating system that does not support the old apps?

 

With a separate stand alone system you can at least continue to use it until some vital link in the chain is no longer fixable or replaceable.

 

Frank

[Robin2]

 what happens to the railway if next year's phones have a different operating system that does not support the old apps?

 

A very valid concern - especially as some model railways are 10 or 20 years old.

 

However if the phone connects to the base station with Wifi and just uses its browser to display the controls it is much less likely to become obsolete.

 

I suspect it is also practical (even if not reasonable ) to expect users to want to update their technology more frequently than they used to.

 

...R

[BG John]

I suspect it is also practical (even if not reasonable ) to expect users to want to update their technology more frequently than they used to.

 

...R

What amazes, and bores, me about DCC, especially with sound, is the pages and pages of layout topics that are occupied by discussing it. Once they get their hands on a new loco and a sound chip, building a model railway seems to be forgotten, and it's all about messing around with a complex and expensive shiny new toy. Add in control from phones and all the other stuff, and I often give up following what started off as a very interesting layout build. It seems to me that if/when I set up a Deltang system on my O gauge layout, it will only need a few posts to cover it, probably even less than if I was wiring it for DC. I want to be a modeller, not a techie geek. Go the operating from the latest shiny gadget with a short life, and constantly updating to the latest technology, route with RC, and it will become just as bad. If I live as long as most of my family, I've got about 30 years left, and I want to be found dead in my chair while operating my aged Deltang system, surrounded by beautiful model scenery and trains!!

[Robin2]

I want to be a modeller, not a techie geek.

That is the crux of the matter.

 

I confess to leaning towards the geek side of things. Once I have got the thing to work I tend to lose interest.

 

I got BPR/C working with my N-Gauge locos using the Deltang hardware re-programmed with the Arduino system and now I am entertaining myself by seeing if I can get BPR/C working in OO-Gauge with much cheaper components - about £8 for the electronics, I think.

 

...R

[BG John]

.....now I am entertaining myself by seeing if I can get BPR/C working in OO-Gauge with much cheaper components - about £8 for the electronics, I think.

 

...R

Tell us more.

[CME and Bottlewasher]

One of my concerns with systems that use phones as controllers is that the life span of a phone is very short. People change to a new one every year or three, and what happens to the railway if next year's phones have a different operating system that does not support the old apps?

 

With a separate stand alone system you can at least continue to use it until some vital link in the chain is no longer fixable or replaceable.

 

Frank

Hi Frank,

 

I tend to buy - thus keep longer - my mobiles, yet they can be hit and miss (range WiFi accessibility etc) and with protective covers etc on them button presses can go awry. Also, one reason why I admire the ZTC base station (and in DC Helmsman), is that the interface between user and model/layout has to be a good one in terms of feel and operation, ease of use too, although I am reasonable with 'tech' the world is full of black mirrors and folk gazing into them and in my railway modelling I endeavour to avoid/balance the former and use the latter as a getaway from it all. Even with DCC I wouldnt be operating most of the points and signals from 'within' as that in effect 'hides' them and using miniature point/signal levers, such as Cobalts can be a rewarding part of the hobby..... 

 

What amazes, and bores, me about DCC, especially with sound, is the pages and pages of layout topics that are occupied by discussing it. Once they get their hands on a new loco and a sound chip, building a model railway seems to be forgotten, and it's all about messing around with a complex and expensive shiny new toy. Add in control from phones and all the other stuff, and I often give up following what started off as a very interesting layout build. It seems to me that if/when I set up a Deltang system on my O gauge layout, it will only need a few posts to cover it, probably even less than if I was wiring it for DC. I want to be a modeller, not a techie geek. Go the operating from the latest shiny gadget with a short life, and constantly updating to the latest technology, route with RC, and it will become just as bad. If I live as long as most of my family, I've got about 30 years left, and I want to be found dead in my chair while operating my aged Deltang system, surrounded by beautiful model scenery and trains!!

Hi John,

 

Each to their own and one man's meat is anothers' poison etc. yet by and large I agree. Enforced obsolescence does my 'ead in and its a waste of time, resources, money and affects the environment.

 

Model railways are multifaceted and a broad church, but like you I believe that they should be the whole with all aspects working synergistically. It should be fun and enjoyable too and that means different things to different people.

 

Digital sound (no matter how much debate there is), is rarely superb, good at best, some, yet few DCC sound set-ups are (over past 10 years I can count those on the fingers of one hand), sound-waves, like water and smoke doesnt scale - ironically wheel beats seem to scale better - so spending lots (£s) on such doesnt appeal. Yet 3.1 and 5.1 sound effects scale better and that's where bluetooth and similar maybe the answer - sound, if decent, can make operations more realistic by making one stop and think how real locos and trains work. RC should be able to accommodate such and maybe better than DCC. I am looking forward to having a go on a Deltang transmitter/controller to see how they feel (I tend to prefer potentiometers to buttons for speed/direction).

 

ATVB

 

CME

 

As for App-Evil et al (or the emperor's new clothes) but I digress;-

 

 

[Robin2]

Tell us more.

You may be sorry you asked

 

I am using an nRF2L01+ 2.4GHz transceiver together with an Atmega Attiny 1634 microprocessor and a Pololu DRV8833 motor driver as shown on the left in the first image. The much bigger Mk1 version is on the right. It has an Atmega 328 microprocessor as used in the Arduino Uno. All this is programmed using the Arduino system.

 

The second image shows how it fits nice and snugly into the boiler space of a 2-6-2 tank. Two x 240mAH LiPo cells will fit in the tender space.

 

I am also fitting an optical detector that can monitor the speed of the motor and, hopefully, it will also allow me to move it along by N revolutions for accurate positioning.

 

...R

[MartinKirkby]

Interesting stuff here.

 

I certainly did not mean that RC would become obsolete - only some (most) of the existing implementations of it.

 

The paradox is that battery-power is probably less necessary in O Gauge because the larger vehicles should pick up track current more reliably. IMHO it is N-Gauge where it is most needed because current collection is more difficult due to the small size. At the moment I think Deltang is the only equipment small enough for British N-Gauge - especially if you want everything in the loco and/or tender.

 

The Americans have the advantage that their N-Gauge models are much bigger simply because the prototypes are much bigger. And models of diesels have a nice rectangular body space.

 

...R

Hi Robin

Good to see you are still using your conciderable skills to further the "hobby!" I found Bill up in Scotland and he kindly posted this solution

http://www.instructables.com/id/Garden-Train-Arduino-Wireless-DCC/

He is very happy with his solution and I am pushing forward much like yourself with a 00 version.

Happy to share

Regards

Martin

Sorry might have posted this in the wrong place , but it's for you Robin. Me bad

[BG John]

You may be sorry you asked

 

I am using an nRF2L01+ 2.4GHz transceiver together with an Atmega Attiny 1634 microprocessor and a Pololu DRV8833 motor driver as shown on the left in the first image. The much bigger Mk1 version is on the right. It has an Atmega 328 microprocessor as used in the Arduino Uno. All this is programmed using the Arduino system.

 

The second image shows how it fits nice and snugly into the boiler space of a 2-6-2 tank. Two x 240mAH LiPo cells will fit in the tender space.

 

I am also fitting an optical detector that can monitor the speed of the motor and, hopefully, it will also allow me to move it along by N revolutions for accurate positioning.

 

...R

Not sorry, just confused! I need a "Cheap RC for Dunmmies" guide that tells me absolutely everything about the system, and what and where to buy every component, to get my head round it though .

 

I've more or less decided to go for Deltang, but will have to limit its use due to the cost of equipping each loco, so I'm interested in ways to do something cheaper, that makes it affordable to use more widely.

[Robin2]

Not sorry, just confused! I need a "Cheap RC for Dunmmies" guide that tells me absolutely everything about the system, and what and where to buy every component, to get my head round it though .

 

I've more or less decided to go for Deltang, but will have to limit its use due to the cost of equipping each loco, so I'm interested in ways to do something cheaper, that makes it affordable to use more widely.

There is no doubt the Deltang system is straightforward - much the same as adding a DCC chip. That's what you are paying for.

 

If you want to try the cheap option I am happy to share what I am doing but it requires the ability to assemble small electronic parts and to program them using the Arduino system. I don't mind sharing the program but it probably does not do exactly what you want so you would have to be able to tailor it to your needs. It is not simply a case of buying parts and joining A to B - although that is part of it. As with any computer programming project you will probably run into snags and need to be able to debug them. If you know nothing about programming and really have no interest in the subject this may not be for you.

 

I have already posted the basics of it in this Simple nRF24L01+ Tutorial on the Arduino Forum.

 

...R

 

[Robin2]

http://www.instructables.com/id/Garden-Train-Arduino-Wireless-DCC/

He is very happy with his solution and I am pushing forward much like yourself with a 00 version.

 

Thanks. My system does not use DCC at all.

 

...R

[BG John]

There is no doubt the Deltang system is straightforward - much the same as adding a DCC chip. That's what you are paying for.

 

If you want to try the cheap option I am happy to share what I am doing but it requires the ability to assemble small electronic parts and to program them using the Arduino system. I don't mind sharing the program but it probably does not do exactly what you want so you would have to be able to tailor it to your needs. I have already posted the basics of it in this Simple nRF24L01+ Tutorial on the Arduino Forum.

 

...R

 

I'll have a read later. I suspect I'll go for Deltang for my O gauge layout, but would like to look at something cheaper for the future, perhaps for my 4mm layouts. With my head immersed in thinking about RC, I was messing around with wiring Peco OO points today, and thinking what a waste of time it was, when I could just lay the track, put a loco on, and turn on the Tx!