Farish announce C Class, all new 8F, refurb Class 31, Thompson coaches and TEA

[The Pilotman]

Same with the Mk2Fs; RRP will be £42.95 but Hattons will be knocking them out for £36.51 according to an email from them today. When I preordered them x years ago, the price shown was £17.81!!!

Edited January 11, 2018 by Western Aviator

[whart57]

Brexit has nothing to do with it.

 

I'd be surprised if the big drop in the pound's value against other major currencies hasn't something to do with it.

[TomE]

I'd be surprised if the big drop in the pound's value against other major currencies hasn't something to do with it.

 

Not in the context of the e-mails that Hatton's have sent out over the last couple of days. 

 

When Bachmann announced the C Class, Birdcage Stock etc, MK.2s etc, they didn't issue an RRP at that time. Hatton's therefore made a 'best guess' in order to be able to take pre-orders, hence the caveat that the price may change before the model is released. Now Bachmann have finally told retailers the RRP of these models, they need to adjust their estimated prices to fit within the maximum discount they are able to offer. The fact that Hatton's have increased/decreased their pricing now is therefore nothing to do with Brexit, just the fact their guess on the RRP was wrong. 

 

Tom. 

Edited January 11, 2018 by TomE

[Chris Higgs]

Not in the context of the e-mails that Hatton's have sent out over the last couple of days. 

 

When Bachmann announced the C Class, Birdcage Stock etc, MK.2s etc, they didn't issue an RRP at that time. Hatton's therefore made a 'best guess' in order to be able to take pre-orders, hence the caveat that the price may change before the model is released. Now Bachmann have finally told retailers the RRP of these models, they need to adjust their estimated prices to fit within the maximum discount they are able to offer. The fact that Hatton's have increased/decreased their pricing now is therefore nothing to do with Brexit, just the fact their guess on the RRP was wrong. 

 

Tom. 

 

So Brexit/level of the pound might not have anything to do with Hattons guess at the RRP but it might well have influenced Bachmann's choice of that RRP.

 

Chris

Edited January 12, 2018 by Chris Higgs

[acg5324]

Same with the Mk2Fs; RRP will be £42.95 but Hattons will be knocking them out for £36.51 according to an email from them today. When I preordered them x years ago, the price shown was £17.81!!!

Sept 2014 on my preorder.....

[whart57]

If Bachmann develop and produce their stuff outside the UK then the currency drop will have an impact.

[grahame]

If Bachmann develop and produce their stuff outside the UK then the currency drop will have an impact.

AFAIA research is undertaken in the UK and production/manufacturing overseas in China. I don't see any change in that, especially in the short term, with Bachmann being a Chinese company.

 

The value of the pound did fall on the Brexit referendum result but it was also considered at the time that the pound was overvalued and due a fall. However that was quite some time ago and since then the pound has slowing been climbing - certainly not dropping. So recent exchange rates probably have less impact on prices than raises in costs such as labour and materials.

 

G

[Chris Higgs]

The value of the pound did fall on the Brexit referendum result but it was also considered at the time that the pound was overvalued and due a fall. 

 

Against the Euro and $ yes, but against the Yuan it was already at close to a 10-year low before Brexit. It dropped just under 10% straight after Brexit, and is now at about that same level (has been even lower in between). I suspect labour costs in Chna may well have risen by more than that percentage.

 

I have an interest in currency fluctuations, based on the drop in the pound I turned down a job in London and took one in Eindhoven instead. 

 

Chris

[whart57]

It's certainly true that Chinese workers are getting better organised at pressing for wage increases, certainly the sort of skilled workers Bachmann would be needing. That will push up labour costs. Materials may be more expensive but materials costs form a very small proportion of the price of something like a model railway loco. However the Bachmann factories will in the end want to receive RMB and if the pound is worth 10% less in China than eighteen months ago that must have some impact. You can go to a site like xe.com and pull up charts of the exchange rate over the months and years to see that though the pound has pulled up a bit from the immediate aftermath of the referendum vote it has been stable at a lower rate compared to June 2016 for some time now.

[grahame]

It's certainly true that Chinese workers are getting better organised at pressing for wage increases, certainly the sort of skilled workers Bachmann would be needing. That will push up labour costs. Materials may be more expensive but materials costs form a very small proportion of the price of something like a model railway loco. However the Bachmann factories will in the end want to receive RMB and if the pound is worth 10% less in China than eighteen months ago that must have some impact. You can go to a site like xe.com and pull up charts of the exchange rate over the months and years to see that though the pound has pulled up a bit from the immediate aftermath of the referendum vote it has been stable at a lower rate compared to June 2016 for some time now.

Not just Chinese labour rates increases (which are have been planned to double over 5 years with a 20% year on year increase) but other costs including those here in the UK (like warehousing, distribution, marketing, advertising, UK wages, rates and so on). See elsewhere on RMWeb for details on Chinese wage costs changes that have been well documented.

 

The big fall in exchange rates was 18 months ago and since then they have been relatively stable including a gradual increase against the dollar which is a worldwide trading currency. Therefore they would have no additional or continual negative impact on price increases since then and on the two annual new range announcements for 2017 and 2018.

 

G

[whart57]

Possibly, but Hattons must have done their estimating late in 2016 when the general consensus was that the pound would recover to previous levels. Even so we can speculate till the cows come home about what they considered, but that doesn't alter the fact the pound is down 10% or more against other major currencies since mid-2016.

[TomE]

Possibly, but Hattons must have done their estimating late in 2016 when the general consensus was that the pound would recover to previous levels. Even so we can speculate till the cows come home about what they considered, but that doesn't alter the fact the pound is down 10% or more against other major currencies since mid-2016.

 

The models at the start of this thread were all announced in January 2017, long after the initial post referendum currency fall and would have taken the lower trading pound into consideration. Therefore the statement "Brexit strikes again" and the implication therein that Brexit is solely to blame is erroneous at best when talking about post January 2017 announcements as the Pound has been relatively flat since then whilst costs in China continued to rise. Of course the next big risk to the Pound will be the outcome of the negotiations and what form of trade deal is struck, but with the Chinese economy and wage growth beginning to show signs of slowing there may be some offsetting of the impact if we end up in 'bad deal' territory. Of course that is all speculation and is veering in to the verboten topic on this forum! 

 

In the case of the Mk.2s, I will accept that the drop in Sterling will have had some influence on pricing being pre-Brexit announcements. However even here, Brexit cannot be solely blamed as these were announced back in 2013 and needed a price adjustment to cover the rises resulting from the increased production costs in China. Frankly, before Brexit was even a thing it was obvious that these were never going to remain near the originally announced RRP. 

 

Tom.  

[whart57]

Except we cannot know what Hatton's used in their estimates, they may have referred to previous orders that were delivered before the referendum. But whatever, let's keep out of verboten territory except to remark that we do ourselves no favours if we try to deny what an economically risky path we are currently on

[Mr chapman]

I build model railways to escape reality. I couldn't give a toss if brexit effects the price or not. I'll be buying a couple of birdcage sets and a C class without it being a political statement It's still cheaper than the 00 gauge set with the convenience of being packaged in one box.

[scruff]

I think that Hattons estimated their prices back in 2013 when a Mk1 coach was around £16 to purchase from them.. 5 years later costs have risen astronomically so the estimate that was way out of date had to be radically altered when the RRP was announced.. I'm so glad I'm not a retailer! 

 

Cheers

Mark

[whart57]

I build model railways to escape reality. I couldn't give a toss if brexit effects the price or not. I'll be buying a couple of birdcage sets and a C class without it being a political statement It's still cheaper than the 00 gauge set with the convenience of being packaged in one box.

 

Oh, I haven't cancelled my order. That would be a "political statement"

[TomE]

Bachmann had the C Class EP samples on display in the members area at the Alexandra Palace show today. Looks fantastic, and shows what can be achieved in N today thanks to the small coreless motor. The model has also been designed to accomodate sound, incredible in such a small engine!

 

 

 

The first painted samples of the Birdcage stock were also on display and also looked excellent.

 

 

The coaches are expected in October / November. No ETA on the C Class, probably next year.

 

Many thanks to Dennis Lovett for opening the cabinet doors for the photos.

 

Tom.

Edited March 25, 2018 by TomE

[Roy L S]

That C Class looks quite exquisite, Bachmann seem to have raised the bar yet again. With the quality of models now reaching similar standards to those of our continental cousins the price with Next 18 and DCC sound compatibility actually looks pretty decent to me, I calculate £115 assuming max 15% discount - quite a lot of functionality for your money.

 

A BR black one and a matching Birdcage set are looking more and more like a rare Rule 1 purchase for me.

 

Roy

[TomE]

E-mail received today suggesting the C Class will be May/June 2019. 

 

The release schedule on the Bachmann Stand at AP had the Birdcage stock down as October / November this year. 

 

Tom. 

[Seanem44]

That C Class looks quite exquisite, Bachmann seem to have raised the bar yet again. With the quality of models now reaching similar standards to those of our continental cousins the price with Next 18 and DCC sound compatibility actually looks pretty decent to me, I calculate £115 assuming max 15% discount - quite a lot of functionality for your money.

 

A BR black one and a matching Birdcage set are looking more and more like a rare Rule 1 purchase for me.

 

Roy

I'm calling 129.99.  Doubt it will be as low as 115.00.  Those days are over.

[Roy L S]

Bachmann website puts the two black variants at £134.99 RRP less max permitted 15% discount gives the circa £115 I calculated. Maybe a price hike by a fiver or so by the time they get released but still in the region of £120 discounted even then.

 

Roy

[Seanem44]

Bachmann website puts the two black variants at £134.99 RRP less max permitted 15% discount gives the circa £115 I calculated. Maybe a price hike by a fiver or so by the time they get released but still in the region of £120 discounted even then.

 

Roy

I really do hope you are right. Truly. It looks great!

[Portpatrick]

I guess Hattons must have had their fingers burned by the likes of the first Farish release of Ivatt Moguls.  I ordered mine at £58 when they first appeared on the pending list, which they honoured.  But by the time it was delivered "new" customers were paying £84.  And I paid a typical Hattons price from Arcadia when I bought my second one.  By contrast I ordered my Blue Peter at whatever when it was first announced, c £120 from memory.  But shortly before it appeared I had a call saying it had risen to c £135 and asking if I wanted to continue with the order - I did.  My second A2 came from a Rails of Sheffield sale at £80!  When prices rise so dramatically and lead times from announcement to release are so ridiculously long, I cannot blame retailers' current stance.

 

I daren't imagine what the Thompsons will cost when they eventually appear.  However Tim at Arcadia has reserved my requirement (scaled back from my original thinking) and he has always charged me something like Hattons prices.  He does not commit himself as Hattons once did.

 

I certainly hold no ill will to the labour market in china for wanting greater prosperity.  However there must be a quid pro quo.  If they want Western style living standards they must deliver to the ever greater and more consistent quality Western consumers expect for their own hard earned money.  That means such things as locos consistently working, with suitable running in, straight from the box, and valve gear which is designed to be robust enough not to disintegrate within a few months of gentle use (I have had 3 sets of LNER style gear in need of tricky repairs).  Something which has never happened on any of my old style Farish locos.  From what I pick up from the N Gauge Forum there is evidence of quality questions.  Cannot comment on OO.

[TomE]

I certainly hold no ill will to the labour market in china for wanting greater prosperity.  However there must be a quid pro quo.  If they want Western style living standards they must deliver to the ever greater and more consistent quality Western consumers expect for their own hard earned money.  That means such things as locos consistently working, with suitable running in, straight from the box, and valve gear which is designed to be robust enough not to disintegrate within a few months of gentle use (I have had 3 sets of LNER style gear in need of tricky repairs).  Something which has never happened on any of my old style Farish locos.  From what I pick up from the N Gauge Forum there is evidence of quality questions.  Cannot comment on OO.

 

 

Don't forget that forums such as The N Gauge Forum and RMweb represent a tiny fraction of the customer base for N Gauge. People on these forums (myself included) are far more likely to post about problems than they are perfectly functioning models and as such, the Internet as a guide to customer satisfaction is probably not the best yardstick!

 

I for one am grateful that the days of a model that sort of looked like the engine it purported to be, and the two speed settings of stop or warp factor 9 are well and truly behind us. Despite a few issues in some of their earlier models, I think Bachmann now (more or less) have their QC sorted out. Of course there will always be one or two bad apples that make it through or suffer on the long journey to the UK, but the Farish range is a million light years from where it was in the Poole days. 

 

I had a long chat with the Bachmann guys at Alexandra Palace, and I sensed some frustration that despite the significant improvements they have introduced to N Gauge in terms of detail, features like DCC & Sound & lighting and significantly improved running qualities, their N Gauge market remains steadfastly between 20-30% of the OO range. Looking at the range and quality of the latest Farish models, I feel their frustration is justified. 

 

Tom. 

[Roy L S]

Don't forget that forums such as The N Gauge Forum and RMweb represent a tiny fraction of the customer base for N Gauge. People on these forums (myself included) are far more likely to post about problems than they are perfectly functioning models and as such, the Internet as a guide to customer satisfaction is probably not the best yardstick!

 

I for one am grateful that the days of a model that sort of looked like the engine it purported to be, and the two speed settings of stop or warp factor 9 are well and truly behind us. Despite a few issues in some of their earlier models, I think Bachmann now (more or less) have their QC sorted out. Of course there will always be one or two bad apples that make it through or suffer on the long journey to the UK, but the Farish range is a million light years from where it was in the Poole days. 

 

I had a long chat with the Bachmann guys at Alexandra Palace, and I sensed some frustration that despite the significant improvements they have introduced to N Gauge in terms of detail, features like DCC & Sound & lighting and significantly improved running qualities, their N Gauge market remains steadfastly between 20-30% of the OO range. Looking at the range and quality of the latest Farish models, I feel their frustration is justified. 

 

Tom. 

 

Hi Tom

 

I agree with all you say above.

 

The only point I would make is that we can only support the growth of the market if there are new products from them to buy. Now I do accept that a slow down from the frenzy of new products of a few years ago was not only inevitable but necessary, but announcing new products like the J72 and 8F in last year's catalogue when the even now they are very likely still considerably more than two years away does not help at all. It frustrates people and they become cynical no matter how good the products are when they do appear.

 

Better communication would help. I appreciate that the focus should be on producing the models, but wouldn't updates akin to the "Engine Shed" be refreshing?

 

Regards

 

Roy