60009 Union of South Africa & 61994 The Great Marquess

[Dava]

A report in Steam Railway [462 p8] states that John Cameron, owner of A4 60009 Union of South Africa & K4 61994 The Great Marquess, will be withdrawing both from mainline and preserved railway operation, and building a museum to house them on his farm at Balbuthie, Fife, close to Kilconquhar.

 

60009 will have a final fling, being restored  to use by Riley & Son for a last spell of mainline operation from around Easter 2017 up to the end of the boiler certificate in July 2019, so there will be chances to ride behind and see this iconic locomotive for a couple of years yet. Mr Cameron bought the loco from BR service in 1966 and has run it on mainline metals for several spells since 1972. Before that it ran on a length of the Lochty Private Railway on a farm he then owned. The sight of 'Number 9' crossing the Forth Railway Bridge or departing King's Cross was truly  iconic.

 

There is no such last hurrah for the unique K4 2-6-0 The Great Marquess (LNER 3442). The loco has a crack in the inner firebox and its boiler certificate has lapsed. A further overhaul would cost into 6 figures and Mr Cameron (77) comments 'no-one is going to write out a seven-year ticket for me'. He bought the loco when it was out of use on the SVR with a broken crank axle and it ran back on the mainline from 2006 after he funded extensive repairs. The K4 class was built for service on the West Highland Railway but were displaced in the late 1950s.

 

Mr Cameron has invested huge amounts of money in restoring and operating these locomotives, delighting countless people over the past 50 years, for which he deserves much thanks. He is of course entitled to do what he feels best with the locos at this time in his life. Many of us will be sorry to see them go, but at least they will stay in Scotland where they belong, rather than being sold down South.

 

Possibly an alternative option would have been to create a new building to house them for public view at the Scottish Railway Museum at Bo'ness, just across the Forth; or at the Caledonian Railway at Bridge of Dun, close to the ECML; or in Fife at the Kingdom of Fife RPS down the road at Leven? Just a thought.

 

Dava

[Bomag]

He hasn't had the K4 for 50 years, it was saved by Viscount Garnock who just managed to survive to see it return to steam in 1989 (with very nice lunch on the SVR). Luckily Cameron is a neighbour of the Lindsays and has funded it since then - both should be celebrated.

 

While Cameron is perfectly entitled to stuff them, we have few enough operational LNER locos as it is. We handed the N7 over to an organisation who could fund (if not immediately or continuously) the operation of it; perhaps that would be a better celebration of the efforts over the last 50 years.

[Synch]

I have to agree, it's an absolutely ridiculous idea to stuff and mount more LNER engines, at least give societies and preserved railways the opportunity to overhaul them, similar to the N7 and D49.

[Dan Griffin]

I too have read the article, i was suprised of the museum approach but Mr cameron is 77, and maybe wants a few quiet years now and 'retire'. The locos are his possessions, not the nations and what he chooses to do with them is entirely up to him. I will be saddened by this as i have special memories of both locos, but with peoples ages increasing and in this ever busy world we live in, i can unfortunatly see more and more locos becoming museum pieces. A prime example being 'princess elizabeth', alot of money has been spent and now she needs yet more costly boiler work. Engines cannot last forever, i personally think these two will be the first of many.

[PhilH]

Engines cannot last forever, i personally think these two will be the first of many.

They can actually, they're machines. Repairs and replacements are being carried out now that even twenty years ago would have been considered impossible. There is no reason why these machines can't be kept going, the only limiting factor being money to fund these repairs / replacements.

[Ed-farms]

As above these aee his property and he is free to do with them as he wishes, however as he  said above "no one will write him a 7 year ticket" sadly he won't last forever and at some point these locos will become the property of another person(s) or organisation. They may then return to the rails one day. Until then lets enjoy Union while she lasts.

[locoholic]

I was very disappointed to read this news. I can't see that a building in the middle of nowhere containing two old steam engines will be a going concern. If Mr Cameron feels he is too old to keep these locos in working order (and he has done a great job), I really think he should offer the locos to another owner, or set up a trust with the aim of keeping them going for future generations.

 

A run behind The Great Marquess on the West Highland line is one of my best railway memories, and I feel sad that my young children might not have the chance to experience it in the future.

[tamperman36]

Its a very sad fact that, all bar 1(soon to be hopefully more) operational steam locos in this country are now getting on for 60/70 plus years old. These locos are now suffering from some quite major issues arising from ware and tare. It is also a definite fact that as the years go on it costs more and more to keep these venerable old locos going. There will and is coming a point when we will start to see more and more of these machines being sidelined and eventually "stuffed and mounted". Know may be the time to start looking at creating a group of "new build" replica steam locos to keep the history alive. It will soon cost more to preserve than to replicate, look at a comparison between the cost of restoring Flying Scotsman to the cost of building Tornado.

 

 

Sad but unfortunately the future,

Me thinks. 

[PhilH]

Its a very sad fact that, all bar 1(soon to be hopefully more) operational steam locos in this country are now getting on for 60/70 plus years old. These locos are now suffering from some quite major issues arising from ware and tare. It is also a definite fact that as the years go on it costs more and more to keep these venerable old locos going. There will and is coming a point when we will start to see more and more of these machines being sidelined and eventually "stuffed and mounted". Know may be the time to start looking at creating a group of "new build" replica steam locos to keep the history alive. It will soon cost more to preserve than to replicate, look at a comparison between the cost of restoring Flying Scotsman to the cost of building Tornado.

 

 

Sad but unfortunately the future,

Me thinks.

 

This isn't quite factual. Every steam locomotive, whether in preservation or out on the main line, is only in service for a finite time (7 years usually but can be extended). Whilst loco A is in service loco B is being overhauled hopefully to replace loco A when it is taken out of service. During this time under overhaul all 'major issues arising from major wear and tear' are replaced, repaired, remachined, whatever it takes to basically make the loco in as new condition when it enters service.

 

As I said in my post earlier there is no part on a steam locomotive which cannot be renewed or replaced. Boiler components routinely have lumps cut out and renewed as do damaged frames. Wheels retyred, cylinders cast, the list is endless, so when an engine enters service it is not the patched up wreck alluded to in this post.

 

The only part of this post I would agree with is that it does cost a lot of money to do this, but as long as this money is available then steam locomotives will continue to be there for a long time to come.

[tamperman36]

I have worked on preserved steam locos, many years ago, wear and tear along with age do cause problems. Other things do also have to be taken into account aswell. One thing is the loss of trained engineers who worked with steam. you could use the construction of "new , replica" locos to help train and keep knowledge on going.

 

A possibility would be to start a new engineering collage where training would come from the construction of new locos.

[PhilH]

I have worked on preserved steam locos, many years ago, wear and tear along with age do cause problems. Other things do also have to be taken into account aswell. One thing is the loss of trained engineers who worked with steam. you could use the construction of "new , replica" locos to help train and keep knowledge on going.

 

A possibility would be to start a new engineering collage where training would come from the construction of new locos.

Again, I'm sorry but the level of expertise involved in the upkeep of steam locos today is very high. Most of the heritage lines have full time very knowledgeable and skilled staff, which, along with modern techniques and materials which it has to be said are in a lot of cases a quantum leap over what was available 50 years ago, ensure that the locos are restored and maintained to a high standard.

 

I have been involved with a preserved line for 30 years now and have seen it evolve from a bunch of volunteers doing the best they can to a very professional, well run business which relies on these excellent engineering skills, techniques and facilities. I'm also involved with main line steam running as well where you have engineering excellence such as Rileys and Crewe Heritage involved, you won't get any better. Also these places and heritage railways such as the one I'm involved with run apprenticeship schemes thus ensuring continuity of skill.

 

I think the future's quite bright.

Edited January 9, 2017 by PhilH

[Boris]

The guy has the right idea, he doesn't want to chuck any more money at them so rather than leaving them to fester and deteriorate in a siding as a target for vandals and scrap thieves he is putting them somewhere safe, dry and undercover.  So, if the future if somebody comes along with the money and the enthusiasm they can be restored to working condition without requiring Flying Dustman levels of dough being expended.

 

And people can also go and see them rather than being out of sight.  Best solultion all round to me.

[Reorte]

It's looking like I'm fortunate that the one time I've been up to Mallaig by rail it was with 61994. But it sounds like it'll be safely under cover and not rusting away out in the open so the news could be an awful lot worse.

[Horsetan]

The guy has the right idea, he doesn't want to chuck any more money at them so rather than leaving them to fester and deteriorate in a siding as a target for vandals and scrap thieves he is putting them somewhere safe, dry and undercover. So, if the future if somebody comes along with the money and the enthusiasm they can be restored to working condition ....

It may be that Mr. Cameron stipulates that both his engines must never be revived after his death.

 

Should people start lobbying for a new-build K4 and A4....?

Edited January 25, 2017 by Horsetan

[Zomboid]

It may be that Mr. Cameron stipulates that both his engines must never be revived after his death.

 

Should people start lobbying for a new-build K4 and A4....?

Can that actually be enforced though?

I can't see why he would say such a thing, and there are a few other A4s knocking about.

[Horsetan]

Can that actually be enforced though?

I think you can do it. If, for example, he sets up a Trust to run his museum, and remembering the point above that they are his engines, he can incorporate various conditions that the Trustees must adhere to. He would also - one hopes - have contingency plans for what happens if the museum / Trust runs out of money.

 

Alternatively, if the engines are passed down to family descendants, they may well respect any wish that the engines never run again. Some do still give full effect to a Testator's wishes, even in this less respectful day and age.

 

I can't see why he would say such a thing....

I can't see why he wouldn't.

 

[GordonC]

I'm not convinced 2 steam locos housed on their own would really be enough of a draw to attract visitors or tourists to give some kind of income to contribute to maintenance costs or repay building costs for establishing under cover accommodation so I would have thought working with established facilities already would have been a more secure future for them.

 

They are his locos at the end of the day and he can do as he pleases with them

[OOgaugeJaf]

It is a shame the NYMR don't put a proposal together to fund a ten year ticket. Ideal for the line and has been an excellent addition to the fleet recently. They are currently having a good record of turning around overhauls so I'm sure they could crack on with it soon

[Ed-farms]

It is a shame the NYMR don't put a proposal together to fund a ten year ticket. Ideal for the line and has been an excellent addition to the fleet recently. They are currently having a good record of turning around overhauls so I'm sure they could crack on with it soon

 

I think they have said its not in their plans but you never know in the future. Am sure they would take it on if they could, be even better if they could do both, imagine a railway that had 2 A4's calling it home, would certainly draw the crowds.

Edited January 27, 2017 by Ed-farms

[rogerzilla]

I thought SNG couldn't go all the way to Whitby (the Network Rail bit), as they tried it once and it caused rather a lot of expensive damage.  I can't remember whether it was out of gauge or whether the curves were too tight for it.

 

New build is probably the way to go; you can restore a machine indefinitely but it eventually becomes Trigger's broom.  Personally I thought Flying Scotsman should have been stuffed and the money used to build two new A3s.  The NRM don't want to run Mallard again (although it was barely used the last time it was restored to main line condition) as it will lose what originality it has left.

Edited March 7, 2017 by rogerzilla

[phil-b259]

I'm not convinced 2 steam locos housed on their own would really be enough of a draw to attract visitors or tourists to give some kind of income to contribute to maintenance costs or repay building costs for establishing under cover accommodation so I would have thought working with established facilities already would have been a more secure future for them.

 

They are his locos at the end of the day and he can do as he pleases with them

 

But its not 'just' going to be a shed with two locos in it.

 

I seem to recall reading in a recent Railway Magazine article that one of his other passions was farming (he even took some of his fellow BR senior bods to an evening sheep shearing session (followed by a meal on drinks) at his place.

 

As such I believe the engines will be part of a wider visitor attraction - and although it may not appeal to the enthusiast market its quite easy to see that if done in the right way his venture has every chance of generating enough money to ensure the engines are looked after in their new static environment.

[5944]

But its not 'just' going to be a shed with two locos in it.

 

I seem to recall reading in a recent Railway Magazine article that one of his other passions was farming (he even took some of his fellow BR senior bods to an evening sheep shearing session (followed by a meal on drinks) at his place.

I'm not sure passion is the right way to put it. I believe he was the largest sheep farmer in Europe at one point!

[Horsetan]

I'm not sure passion is the right way to put it. I believe he was the largest sheep farmer in Europe at one point!

 

"Passion" and "sheep" generally lead to dodgy humour.

[phil-b259]

I'm not sure passion is the right way to put it. I believe he was the largest sheep farmer in Europe at one point!

 

He may have been - but IIRC his concern was more about the disappearance of traditional farming techniques and he wanted to keep them alive for future generations (much like Amberley Museum still demonstrates woodworking or blacksmith skills to a modern audience).

 

Unfortunately I have disposed of the magazine so cannot refer back to it, but it was a recent issue - within the past 6 months certainly.

[DCB]

New build has to be the answer.   FS should have been stuffed and painted up for permanent display (maybe as Papyrus or Great Northern) and new frames provided for the present "replica" instead of the ridiculous restoration farce.   However the complexity of the K4 and its small wheels do present obstacles to building and operating new one.

 

It is a shame the K4 couldn't have run on the West Highland more often and in future if loads increase perhaps a K4 and a couple of 8Fs could run the summer service, as the Black 5s really struggle out of Glenfinnan.  The 8F was fantastic a few years ago!   George Stephenson was also pretty impressive.