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60009 Union of South Africa & 61994 The Great Marquess


Dava
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I'm sure Mr. Cameron would welcome your offer

of time and money to put the loco through

another full overhaul to Network Rail standards

Are you offering your time and money as well ? Is that your best contribution ? There should be some clause about anyone feeling they can do anything they like with any steam engine in preservation merely because they own them , they should be protected , they are all special , the north yourkshire moors railway is running out of locomotives . Also right now the Union of South Africa is going to replace Tornado on it’s scheduled railtours as it broke down in April . Soon they won’t be any steam locomotives left to run railtours maybe it’s due partly to European Union regulations , that these locomotives have to pass .

 

If union of South Africa were broken beyond all repair and it wasn’t possible to save her to return to the tracks then yes by all means keep it in a museum, but the attitude here is “ I cannot return her to steam and no one else is going to either “ , that is selfish attitude , why not have an arrangement like Flying Scotsman partly on display at NRM , and then brought out for rail tours .

 

I do not think every avenue has been explored , why not start an appeal to the public like the company that made Tornado asked for donations to help fund parts for the P2 locomotive ? It worked for them , I’m sure it would work for any steam engine should they go cap in hand if necessary ? But no it comes across as shear stuborness on Mr Cameron’s part , and will not explore these avenues to keep 60009 on the rails . ( but I’m sure alll my suggestions like others I have put down here will have scorn poured over them )

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Are you offering your time and money as well ? Is that your best contribution ? There should be some clause about anyone feeling they can do anything they like with any steam engine in preservation merely because they own them , they should be protected , they are all special , the north yourkshire moors railway is running out of locomotives . Also right now the Union of South Africa is going to replace Tornado on it’s scheduled railtours as it broke down in April . Soon they won’t be any steam locomotives left to run railtours maybe it’s due partly to European Union regulations , that these locomotives have to pass .

If union of South Africa were broken beyond all repair and it wasn’t possible to save her to return to the tracks then yes by all means keep it in a museum, but the attitude here is “ I cannot return her to steam and no one else is going to either “ , that is selfish attitude , why not have an arrangement like Flying Scotsman partly on display at NRM , and then brought out for rail tours .

I do not think every avenue has been explored , why not start an appeal to the public like the company that made Tornado asked for donations to help fund parts for the P2 locomotive ? It worked for them , I’m sure it would work for any steam engine should they go cap in hand if necessary ? But no it comes across as shear stuborness on Mr Cameron’s part , and will not explore these avenues to keep 60009 on the rails . ( but I’m sure alll my suggestions like others I have put down here will have scorn poured over them )

. All* ( speeding )
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You want to protect it, then keeping it in a nice warm, dry shed out of use is just about the best way there is.

 

It's a lump of metal belonging to Mr Cameron. He is entitled to enjoy his things in the manner in which he sees fit. And now he's in his late 70s he wants to keep them close by rather than spending all the money it would take to run them whilst not being able to see them very much.

 

I've really don't understand how you don't get that they're his property to do with as he sees fit. So what if the NYMR doesn't have a huge number of locomotives, they can hire and or restore something else, and neither the A4 nor the K4 are doing a lot on the NYMR now anyhow.

 

I see the point about being a custodian, but frankly he's done his bit at this stage and should be allowed to spend the rest of his days enjoying the locos how he wants to. And in 20 years time they're highly likely to be owned by someone else, who will have their own ideas. And I understand being disappointed that they're going to be retired, but having not contributed a single penny to their restoration and upkeep, my disappointment is irrelevant.

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Are you offering your time and money as well ? Is that your best contribution ? There should be some clause about anyone feeling they can do anything they like with any steam engine in preservation merely because they own them , they should be protected , they are all special , the north yourkshire moors railway is running out of locomotives . Also right now the Union of South Africa is going to replace Tornado on it’s scheduled railtours as it broke down in April . Soon they won’t be any steam locomotives left to run railtours maybe it’s due partly to European Union regulations , that these locomotives have to pass .

 

If union of South Africa were broken beyond all repair and it wasn’t possible to save her to return to the tracks then yes by all means keep it in a museum, but the attitude here is “ I cannot return her to steam and no one else is going to either “ , that is selfish attitude , why not have an arrangement like Flying Scotsman partly on display at NRM , and then brought out for rail tours .

 

I do not think every avenue has been explored , why not start an appeal to the public like the company that made Tornado asked for donations to help fund parts for the P2 locomotive ? It worked for them , I’m sure it would work for any steam engine should they go cap in hand if necessary ? But no it comes across as shear stuborness on Mr Cameron’s part , and will not explore these avenues to keep 60009 on the rails . ( but I’m sure alll my suggestions like others I have put down here will have scorn poured over them )

 

You are confusing several totally separate things

 

(1) The ability to run steam locomotives on Network Rail infrastructure (i.e. the national rail network) has NOTHING to do with any EU regulations so please scrub that ludicrous suggestion from your mind. The reason why we do not see more locomotives passed for main line operation is simply down to the costs of overhauling them to a sufficiently high standard to cope with sustained 75mph operation plus the cost of fitting the necessary safety kit such as TPWS and aircraft style 'black boxes' (i.e. data loggers) essential for safe operation on the national rail network. If you recall we almost had a nasty collision between a HST and a steam charter a few years ago precisely because the modern safety systems had been isolated without permission by the steam crew so they are there for good reasons.

 

(2) The Flying Scotsman was not 'given' to the NRM when the owner didn't want it - in fact the loco was actually offered for sale when its owner was declared bankrupt! There was a very real prospect of the loco being bought by an overseas buyer and it took a massive fund raising effort to generate enough money from the British public for the NRM to be able to buy the locomotive for the nation.

 

(3) Union of South Africa is one of 6 surviving A4 locomotives, one of which is already in the NRM while the owners of the other 2 have no intention of 'stuffing and mounting' them in the long term. Flying Scotsman is the only example of an A3 class locomotive in existence and so its purchase by the NRM is far more appropriate than a 2nd A4

 

(4) The NYMR is not 'running out of locomotives' - like all Heritage railways they have a rolling programme of restorations with fresh locomotives being restored / overhauled to replace those needing to be withdrawn.

 

(5) The decision by Mr Cameron is not a spur of the moment one - he has given considerable thought to the issue of what will happen to his asset when he dies. As such he will make sure that the locos are carefully displayed for the public to see on his Scottish estate thus boasting tourism in his local area and supporting his local community. This is no different to the principle which the national trust works under - for example when someone dies and gives them a house full of paintings, they don't take them all down and put them in a London art gallery do they? No they leave them where they are and encourage people to make the journey to see them as the previous owner wished.

Edited by phil-b259
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It's the ill-informed and/or partisan outbursts of some, especially if witnessed by people outside of the railway fraternity, that give ammunition to those who deride and dismiss us as simply a bunch of, well, cranks. You see plenty of that on Facebook...

 

Also, joining a group and immediately 'going off on one' isn't exactly the best way of either introducing oneself or garnering support. IMHO ;)

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It's the ill-informed and/or partisan outbursts of some, especially if witnessed by people outside of the railway fraternity, that give ammunition to those who deride and dismiss us as simply a bunch of, well, cranks. You see plenty of that on Facebook...

 

Also, joining a group and immediately 'going off on one' isn't exactly the best way of either introducing oneself or garnering support. IMHO ;)

when I want lessons in internet etiquette I’ll let you know , people will form their opinions no matter what such is the nature of human nature
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when I want lessons in internet etiquette I’ll let you know , people will form their opinions no matter what such is the nature of human nature

What a petulant chap you are. This is nothing to do with "Internet etiquette" per se; it's to do with general good manners, courtesy and respect.

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when I want lessons in internet etiquette I’ll let you know , people will form their opinions no matter what such is the nature of human nature

Can I suggest you take a step back,

and just calm down a bit.

Not only are you in danger of

getting this thread locked,

but also of getting yourself

banned frem RMWeb

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when I want lessons in internet etiquette I’ll let you know , people will form their opinions no matter what such is the nature of human nature

I'd suggest being very careful with your postings from this point forward here as you've already annoyed several people. Please accept that you have no control over what others do with their own personal property.

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when I want lessons in internet etiquette I’ll let you know , people will form their opinions no matter what such is the nature of human nature

It seems to me that you joined this forum (less than 48 hrs ago) simply to 'have a go' at John Cameron.  You've made your point - now let it go.

Ray.

Edited by Marshall5
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Why not just say it’s British instead of raising more devisive nationalism?

 

I agree. But I was being a bit pedantic.

 

I was replying to someone who said they were Scottish, which they aren't. It's a bit like me going to live in Spain and saying that I'm Spanish.

 

 

I always thought it was a pity when they left the SVR. TGM was particularly lovely looking when on the teak set.

 

 

 

 

Jason

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How are either of them historically important? Mallard is the important one, being the 126mph loco. What did 60009 do? Yes the K4 is unique now, but again what did it do that’s so important? Sorry but don’t see either being so important as to warrant them to stay on the rails. Better stuffed and mounted than lying in a siding somewhere, rusting away while waiting to be overhauled.

 

So the only important locomotives are those that broke a dubious record. Okay I'll take a gas axe to York tomorrow and scrap all those historically unimportant locomotives then.

 

Starting with 60103 which wasn't even deemed worth saving by the BRB. Black Five? Loads of them, wasn't even the first one. V2? Just looks like Flying Scotsman. Deltic? Just a smelly diesel. I could go on.

 

 

Why should they be on the rails? Because that is what they were built for and it's something they can still do. If they are "unimportant" then what's the problem?

 

 

Surely it's the important and irreplaceable locomotives that should be stuffed and mounted? 

 

 

But it's a moot point seeing as the owner has made his mind up to put his "unimportant" locomotives in a museum.

 

 

 

Jason

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I think you can do it. If, for example, he sets up a Trust to run his museum, and remembering the point above that they are his engines, he can incorporate various conditions that the Trustees must adhere to. He would also - one hopes - have contingency plans for what happens if the museum / Trust runs out of money.

 

Alternatively, if the engines are passed down to family descendants, they may well respect any wish that the engines never run again. Some do still give full effect to a Testator's wishes, even in this less respectful day and age.

 

I can't see why he wouldn't.

 

 

There seem to have been incidences of charities deciding to ditch conditions attached to legacies and getting away with it.

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In a way certain posts on this thread are a microcosm for much of what is wrong in modern society. A chap preserves locomotives, invests a lot of money keeping them in working order and then when he decides to retire them to a new museum he is building (which, as with his decision to preserve the two steamers and keep them running, he doesn't have to do) rather than appreciation and a heartfelt thanks people appear to start whinging and seeing him as some sort of selfish cultural vandal. They're his engines, he's made a big effort to share them with the public and preserve them for posterity and is making arrangements for them to continue to be available to the general public to view, the guy deserves a knighthood IMO. However it seems it's easier to see him as some sort of selfish baddie rather than a bit of a hero. Very sad.  

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I do not think every avenue has been explored , why not start an appeal to the public like the company that made Tornado asked for donations to help fund parts for the P2 locomotive ?

If you feel that strongly, then maybe you should start such an appeal yourself?

Edited by Pete the Elaner
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There seem to have been incidences of charities deciding to ditch conditions attached to legacies and getting away with it.

Not just charities I'm afraid.  In recent years many items from the National Collection have been 'de-accessioned' (is that the correct word?) due to shortage of storage/display space, often in a deteriorated condition after years of outdoor storage.  Some years ago an LNWR steam breakdown crane was given to the Churnet Valley as the NRM already had one.  It rotted in a siding there for many years and was finally scrapped.  If I were John Cameron I would probably feel that my locos had a better chance of being preserved in perpetuity in a museum I had built and my heirs had some control over.

Ray.

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Not just charities I'm afraid.  In recent years many items from the National Collection have been 'de-accessioned' (is that the correct word?) due to shortage of storage/display space, often in a deteriorated condition after years of outdoor storage.  Some years ago an LNWR steam breakdown crane was given to the Churnet Valley as the NRM already had one.  It rotted in a siding there for many years and was finally scrapped.  If I were John Cameron I would probably feel that my locos had a better chance of being preserved in perpetuity in a museum I had built and my heirs had some control over.

Ray.

 

The LNWR steam crane was saved from scrapping at the last minute. It's now at the Crewe Heritage Centre.

 

Andy

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The LNWR steam crane was saved from scrapping at the last minute. It's now at the Crewe Heritage Centre.

 

Andy

That's good to know - I stand corrected.  However I think my point still stands as other former National Collection items have 'bit the dust' such as the G.W. buffet car scrapped at the Pontypool and Blaenavon.

Ray. 

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I can understand why Cameron may want to retire the A4, however I think many of us must wonder what will become of both locomotives (and his wider collection) upon his passing.

Their proposed museum/location is quite literally in the middle of nowhere and I don't particularly envisage a huge amount of patronage except from the dedicated. The K4 is a slightly harder pill to swallow considering it's very much more restricted and limited preservation life. I believe the SRPS at Bo'ness would be more than happy to operate/restore it etc on his behalf given half a chance, indeed Bo'ness would seem to be the more logical choice of a static display location for both locomotives in the long term.

All the same, I'm sure most would sincerely thank John Cameron for allowing us all those wonderful years to enjoy the K4 and number 9, particularly the latter on the main line - which I believe can still boast the fastest preserved steam run amongst it's exploits.

 

P.S. I think everyone bar the little Englander types out there desperate to hear the sound of their own voice would regard these two as Scottish locomotives, along with 60532. If not, I've got some very good friends who by the same logic must certainly be Hong Kong Chinese and German respectively (rather than Scottish/British) if we're so narrow minded as to define such things entirely by an individual's place of birth.

Edited by Bon Accord
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P.S. I think everyone bar the little Englander types out there desperate to hear the sound of their own voice would regard these two as Scottish locomotives, along with 60532. If not, I've got some very good friends who by the same logic must certainly be Hong Kong Chinese and German respectively (rather than Scottish/British) if we're so narrow minded as to define such things entirely by an individual's place of birth.

 

I don't see them as being 'Scottish' or 'English', I see them as LNER. As such they are much more important.

 

I see it as every duty of every owner of LNER locos (and constituent companies) to ensure that their engines are available to to the maximum number of people, preferably in steam. It seems that Cameron does not share my view - he is entitled to that, just I as am entitled to think less of him for it.

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Not really, its like saying to someone with a rare classic vehicle, ' you must take it to all shows so everyone can see it. How dare you lock it in a garage!'

I would love to own a mainline diesel but what puts me off is I've got nowhere to keep it as I find most preserved railways leave me cold these days I'd want it as a personal loco

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I can understand why Cameron may want to retire the A4, however I think many of us must wonder what will become of both locomotives (and his wider collection) upon his passing.

Their proposed museum/location is quite literally in the middle of nowhere and I don't particularly envisage a huge amount of patronage except from the dedicated. The K4 is a slightly harder pill to swallow considering it's very much more restricted and limited preservation life. I believe the SRPS at Bo'ness would be more than happy to operate/restore it etc on his behalf given half a chance, indeed Bo'ness would seem to be the more logical choice of a static display location for both locomotives in the long term.

All the same, I'm sure most would sincerely thank John Cameron for allowing us all those wonderful years to enjoy the K4 and number 9, particularly the latter on the main line - which I believe can still boast the fastest preserved steam run amongst it's exploits.

 

P.S. I think everyone bar the little Englander types out there desperate to hear the sound of their own voice would regard these two as Scottish locomotives, along with 60532. If not, I've got some very good friends who by the same logic must certainly be Hong Kong Chinese and German respectively (rather than Scottish/British) if we're so narrow minded as to define such things entirely by an individual's place of birth.

Greetings from Crail

 

Seems daft to me his proposals to keep the on his farm But they are his so thats that, 

 

as for being in the Middle of Know Where "You should be so luck to bide in the East Neuk"    :sungum:

 

Regards Arran

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Greetings from Crail

 

Seems daft to me his proposals to keep the on his farm But they are his so thats that, 

 

as for being in the Middle of Know Where "You should be so luck to bide in the East Neuk"    :sungum:

 

Regards Arran

 

I saw some designs for the new museum building online the other day and it does look quite good.

As for the Kingdom, I should probably choose my words carefully as my mother was born in Dunfermline and my Grandfather was from Kirkcaldy!

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What a wonderful machine it is. The purpose it was built for came in handy on the steep and winding branch to Blaenau Ffestiniog. I am really glad I saw it in action. Time for a RTR 4mm model methinks....

 

post-6680-0-27980000-1530265261.jpg

 

21st August 2012 above at Dolwydellen and 30 July 2013 below at Blaenau Ffestiniog.....

post-6680-0-46294900-1530265259_thumb.jpg

Edited by coachmann
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