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GWR Toplights Poll  

156 members have voted

  1. 1. What era Great Western / WR steam do you model?

    • Pre 1920's
    • 1920 to 1939 - Shirtbutton era
    • WW2
    • Post WW2
    • Post Nationalisation WR steam
  2. 2. If R-T-R Toplight carriages were brought to the market you much would you spend?

  3. 3. How many are you likely to buy?

  4. 4. Given the plethora of types and how these changed over the years, which is important?

    • 3rd class corridor stock
    • 3rd class non corridor
    • Brake 3rd (LH & RH) corridor stock
    • Brake 3rd non-corridor
    • Composite corridor stock
    • Brake composite corridor stock
    • Brake composite non corridor
    • 1st class corridor stock
    • Restaurant carriage
    • Full Brake van e.g.(Toplight K22 etc.)
    • Single slip
    • Double slip
  5. 5. Which actual stock would you buy?

    • 48ft non corridor 3rd class C37
    • 48ft non corridor Brake 3rd D62
    • 48ft non corridor Composite E101
    • 57ft non corridor 1st class A15
    • 57ft non corridor Brake 3rd D49
    • 57ft non corridor Composite E89
    • 57ft corridor 3rd class C32
    • 57ft corridor composite E83/85
    • 57ft corridor Brake 3rd class E47
    • 56ft corridor Brake Composite E82
    • 70ft corridor 1st class A13
    • Restaurant carriage H16
    • Double slip carriage F21
    • Single slip carriage F15/16
    • Full Brake K22
    • 70ft 3rd class carriage C29
    • 70ft Brake 3rd carriage D51
    • 70ft composite carriage E84
    • C35 3rd class 57ft
    • D56 Brake 3rd 57ft
    • E98/E103 Composite


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I am away on business at the moment, so will pick this up probably when I get home Friday.

 

The suggestion about locking the poll seems an odd one, when the poll has been running since Jan 2017, has 127 votes and is stirring a healthy debate. Oh and it’s also run to 10 pages.

 

The Toplights were always going to be a tricky carriage to bring to market due to the changes over the years. I will continue to see if we can get a manufacturer interested, failing that maybe we can get costed the production costs for a crowd funding scheme.

 

Interesting that the K22 only has 7%, yet would make the most sense and probably the one that has greater appeal.

 

All of which of course is my personal point of view.

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I am away on business at the moment, so will pick this up probably when I get home Friday.

 

The suggestion about locking the poll seems an odd one, when the poll has been running since Jan 2017, has 127 votes and is stirring a healthy debate. Oh and it’s also run to 10 pages.

 

The Toplights were always going to be a tricky carriage to bring to market due to the changes over the years. I will continue to see if we can get a manufacturer interested, failing that maybe we can get costed the production costs for a crowd funding scheme.

 

Interesting that the K22 only has 7%, yet would make the most sense and probably the one that has greater appeal.

 

All of which of course is my personal point of view.

 

Ignore him Neale the man is an idiot you will normally find him posting when certain members kick off with an argument I don't think I've seen anything sensible on any of his posts.

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The suggestion about locking the poll seems an odd one, when the poll has been running since Jan 2017, has 127 votes and is stirring a healthy debate. Oh and it’s also run to 10 pages.

 

The Toplights were always going to be a tricky carriage to bring to market due to the changes over the years. I will continue to see if we can get a manufacturer interested, 

 

You started the poll in an effort to get a manufacturer interested in making toplights, a noble goal.

 

According to Stationmaster, a well respected member of this website with extensive knowledge and contacts, your poll helped to convince a "well respected manufacturer" (Stationmaster's words, not mine) to not proceed with toplights, in part because there was no clear winners.

 

To me that is a clear indication that the poll is not doing what you hoped, and in fact has helped to prevent what you want.

 

But then, according to 81C I am an idiot and to be ignored, so by all means ignore the evidence I have presented to you.

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You started the poll in an effort to get a manufacturer interested in making toplights, a noble goal.

 

According to Stationmaster, a well respected member of this website with extensive knowledge and contacts, your poll helped to convince a "well respected manufacturer" (Stationmaster's words, not mine) to not proceed with toplights, in part because there was no clear winners.

 

To me that is a clear indication that the poll is not doing what you hoped, and in fact has helped to prevent what you want.

 

But then, according to 81C I am an idiot and to be ignored, so by all means ignore the evidence I have presented to you.

You sound a bit techty there! Mdve whoever you are, shame you don’t use your real name. As someone who has been on RMWeb for a number of years, I get a bit tired of new people arriving and all of a sudden telling us what we should be doing.

 

Firstly, the Poll served its purpose to get healthy debate.

 

Secondly, we have had manufacturers interested, but due to a change in management, have for the moment gone Luke warm. I fear you have mis-quoted Mike.

 

Thirdly, I think you will find a couple of years ago some complemtary comments from the RMWeb moderators, including Andy.

 

Sorry you don’t agree with 81c who I consider to be a friend, sorry also that you miss-quote The Stationmaster, who I also consider to be a friend. You have a right to your views, I have mine, which is that there is no need to shut the thread down. I will continue to see if I can get an RTR carriage, if you don’t want to buy same, you are free to do so.

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Thanks Jason, awful lot of work to do there.

There is news on one of WSR web pages that they intend to restore all the top-lights on their line sorry can't find the link.

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There is news on one of WSR web pages that they intend to restore all the top-lights on their line sorry can't find the link.

Thanks Bob,

 

Some time ago when I was a member, there was a project to assemble a typical rake of GWR carriages, I think from the 1930's and at that time, they seemed to be getting on quite well.

 

Although sadly, there was an awful lot of work needed on the examples they had. 

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Thanks Bob,

 

Some time ago when I was a member, there was a project to assemble a typical rake of GWR carriages, I think from the 1930's and at that time, they seemed to be getting on quite well.

 

Although sadly, there was an awful lot of work needed on the examples they had. 

 

Hi Neale I don't think it's their ability to be able do the work it might be the lack of manpower, cash and some one exceptional to run the project as massive as that,

these large projects do slow down/stall hopefully the coach currently in the workshop when finished might bring new energy and interest to the project.

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  • 2 weeks later...

To be honest I would consider anything that was a Toplight!

 

My aim would be to have two rakes of 5 (panelled with garter and later simplified chock/cream) and possibly 3 others to make up a mixed rake with Bachmann Collet 60', Hornby 57' and the odd centenery

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I am not a GW fan particularly (although I do like this toplight stock aeshetically). So I approach this, as other projects, from a commercial (mercenary) position.

 

From the range of diagrams mentioned in the poll, it should really not be difficult to create a range of 57' diagrams which would share many common components and sell in sufficient numbers to be a viable project. Once a few have been created, demand for others will follow.

 

70' seems to me altogether more difficult commercially. They would work well for collectors' showcases but not on many layouts with Setrack curves.

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70' seems to me altogether more difficult commercially. They would work well for collectors' showcases but not on many layouts with Setrack curves.

 

It never stopped Lima (and later Hornby when they realised there was no problem with the length) selling 75 foot Mark 3s by the bucket load. They've been the staple of trainsets for years.

 

In 4mm scale a 70 ft. carriage is only a couple of centimetres longer than a Mark One. I haven't got plans to hand, but the bogie pivot points wouldn't be that different.

 

 

But to be honest if you are designing coaches so they are suitable for Setrack radius of less than R3 then you aren't selling them for upwards of £50 as many of the people using those standards struggle to spend much more than that on a locomotive.

 

 

 

Jason

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It never stopped Lima (and later Hornby when they realised there was no problem with the length) selling 75 foot Mark 3s by the bucket load. They've been the staple of trainsets for years.

 

In 4mm scale a 70 ft. carriage is only a couple of centimetres longer than a Mark One. I haven't got plans to hand, but the bogie pivot points wouldn't be that different.

 

 

But to be honest if you are designing coaches so they are suitable for Setrack radius of less than R3 then you aren't selling them for upwards of £50 as many of the people using those standards struggle to spend much more than that on a locomotive.

 

 

 

Jason

 

Fair comment about the Mk3s to scale length.

 

But I see no correlation between the price paid for a loco and the use of "proper" track.

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It never stopped Lima (and later Hornby when they realised there was no problem with the length) selling 75 foot Mark 3s by the bucket load. They've been the staple of trainsets for years.

 

In 4mm scale a 70 ft. carriage is only a couple of centimetres longer than a Mark One. I haven't got plans to hand, but the bogie pivot points wouldn't be that different.

 

 

But to be honest if you are designing coaches so they are suitable for Setrack radius of less than R3 then you aren't selling them for upwards of £50 as many of the people using those standards struggle to spend much more than that on a locomotive.

 

 

 

Jason

 

There will be about 24mm difference depending on which dimension for a mk1 you use 63' 5" or 64' 6'.

 

To be fair not all "70ft" is actually 70ft. There are various lengths from 68ft. For example E78 toplight is 69ft.

 

Mike Wiltshire

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One other thing to bare in mind is that Hornby and Bachmann seem to have no issue selling Pendolinos (78ft6), Voyagers (78ft3),  Javelin (68ft) and sold in a trainset, not to mention Hornby recently releasing the Class 800 (85ft)! 

So I dont think the length would be the issue, though I guess the 6 wheel bogie varieties might be a bit more tricky to get running over trainset track in comparison to a 4 wheel bogie. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi All,

 

A few suggestions about the 6 wheel bogies. If they put flangless wheels on the rear of things like a Britannia then a centre set of flangless wheels on a coach bogie shouldn't be an issue I would have thought? Either that or put into practice what we modellers have done for years and do a wide tube axle over a blank normal axle to allow it to float. Noel's Hazelwood Models POLLEN E kits have flangless centre wheels and my version of the W17 6 wheel BEEETLE special cattle wagon has floaty axle technology. Both works well!

 

All the best,

 

Castle

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The issue with 12-wheelers isn't so much the middle axle - the wheelbase is usually much the same as that of a locomotive tender - 6'6" + 6'6" or similar. It's the swing of the longer wheelbase bogie on set-track curves can be such that the wheels catch the rear of the solebar. Hornby's disfigurement of the ex-Airfix (?) LMS 68' diner alluded to previously was to cut away sections of the solebar above the bogie:

 

post-29416-0-24443500-1531863345.jpg

 

The original Airfix version had full-depth solebars, so it's unclear to me why this change was found necessary.

 

The longer a coach is (or rather, the greater the distance between bogie centres), the larger the angle through which the bogie has to swing. This isn't a problem with models of modern coaches, because these have smaller wheels and don't have solebars, but for a model of 70ft Toplight or similar, with 14 mm diameter wheels, it could be a difficulty. On the other hand, the shorter wheelbase bogies favoured by Churchward could compensate for this.

 

 

 

 

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Hi Stephen,

 

This is true - I am slowly building up the Comet GWR special saloon kit and the way they have got round it by repositioning the pivot points for the bogies which seems to work just fine. On a case by case basis, the problems are surmountable.

 

All the best,

 

Castle

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The issue with 12-wheelers isn't so much the middle axle - the wheelbase is usually much the same as that of a locomotive tender - 6'6" + 6'6" or similar. It's the swing of the longer wheelbase bogie on set-track curves can be such that the wheels catch the rear of the solebar. Hornby's disfigurement of the ex-Airfix (?) LMS 68' diner alluded to previously was to cut away sections of the solebar above the bogie:

 

LMS 68ft dining carriage - Hornby.jpg

 

The original Airfix version had full-depth solebars, so it's unclear to me why this change was found necessary.

 

The longer a coach is (or rather, the greater the distance between bogie centres), the larger the angle through which the bogie has to swing. This isn't a problem with models of modern coaches, because these have smaller wheels and don't have solebars, but for a model of 70ft Toplight or similar, with 14 mm diameter wheels, it could be a difficulty. On the other hand, the shorter wheelbase bogies favoured by Churchward could compensate for this.

Actually, the original had two chassis mouldings; the one you see now, which allows the coach to run on 2nd radius curves, and another which did not. Most people swapped the non-cutout one off the coach and used the other, which was spare in the box. Ask around, someone may still have the original underframe moulding lurking somewhere...

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I am curious with the talk of 6 wheel bogies and toplights. As far as I am aware the only toplight to run with six wheel bogies is the one off, 70ft Brake third, D48. With its' unique nature, not a prime target for an rtr model surely.I would be interested to hear of any other diagrams so fitted.

 

Mike Wiltshire

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Showing my appalling ignorance of matters GW, how much work would need to be done to adapt the underframe of a Hornby 57' coach to make it suitable for a Toplight?

 

Or putting it another way, how difficult would it be for Hornby to make a 57' Toplight based on their existing Collett models.

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