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  • 2 months later...
  • RMweb Gold

Having found some time the wiring has been completed, with droppers to each length of track and switching for the different lanes, so that each is operated independently. A single Gaugemaster Series E controller controls the whole layout, with each move being manually set up electrically so that other locos won't move.

 

However one problem is point 2. This Hornby LH point makes some locos derail whilst others cross it with no problem at all. It is only in one direction, taking the LH fork. As posted earlier I have a 66 and a 40 that both lose their first axle each time they go over, but have others 66's that are fine. As the track is glued down, I am trying to understand the issue before I have to pull it up. It appears that the leading wheel hits the frog on some locos and tries to go straight on. I've videoed a 20 which skips each time it goes across to see if anyone has any ideas that avoid pulling the track up! Bizarrely I bought two Bachmann RF Class 20's and the other runs across as smooth as anything :banghead:

 

If anyone has any ideas do let me know!

 

 

 

:good:

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Best solution: swap it for a Peco one.  I used to have some Hornby ones, but Lima locos always used to derail in just the way you describe over them.  I replaced them with Peco many years ago, so no idea how more modern locos cope (I'm assuming you could be talking about Bachmann or Lima, both have made 66s and 40s, but the loco in your video is a Lima 20).  Otherwise I've heard suggested (probably on here somewhere) that you can glue a thin strip of plastic to the left hand check rail (in the direction of travel) to narrow the gap between it and the running rail, so it does its intended job of pulling the wheel further to the left and stopping it striking the frog.  I've never tried it, but seems worth a go, maybe a thin piece of hard clear plastic packaging.

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Before you replace the point, I would check the back to back measurements on the locos that don't work.  As you have said, you do have some 66's that are fine with that point, if it is only one 66, the 40 & that 20 in the video that are stumbling, it might be the locos that are at fault, not your trackwork.

 

HTH

 

Moxy

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Best solution: swap it for a Peco one.  I used to have some Hornby ones, but Lima locos always used to derail in just the way you describe over them.  I replaced them with Peco many years ago, so no idea how more modern locos cope (I'm assuming you could be talking about Bachmann or Lima, both have made 66s and 40s, but the loco in your video is a Lima 20).  Otherwise I've heard suggested (probably on here somewhere) that you can glue a thin strip of plastic to the left hand check rail (in the direction of travel) to narrow the gap between it and the running rail, so it does its intended job of pulling the wheel further to the left and stopping it striking the frog.  I've never tried it, but seems worth a go, maybe a thin piece of hard clear plastic packaging.

 

Before you replace the point, I would check the back to back measurements on the locos that don't work.  As you have said, you do have some 66's that are fine with that point, if it is only one 66, the 40 & that 20 in the video that are stumbling, it might be the locos that are at fault, not your trackwork.

 

Thank you both. I think the B2B's are the problem on those loco's but need to get a gauge to check, so will look to pick one up at Warley.

 

I have glued a thin piece of plastic from a Ratio kit packaging exactly as described and it works perfectly! Checked my Bachmann 66's and 40 and they no longer derail :)

 

gallery_24698_4156_1351838.jpg

 

Not sure that the tail is required, and needs painting black or dirt in due course. But my Bachmann Saltburn by Sea Class 20 now runs straight through

 

 

Thanks :)

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With the points fixed I decided to try out my Huntley & Palmer Peckett. Despite not yet being run in, it manages the insulfrog points quite happily without even a stutter. Very impressive. Notice it is affected by the check point issue above, but the modification keeps it on track.

 

Edited by ruggedpeak
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So onto the wiring. A word of caution, any competent electricians or those who like wiring done properly, please skip this post......

 

The plan was to run the layout with a single controller, so only one movement at a time. There are 3 lines in the fiddle yard leading into 3 lines on the scenic area and points linking. Every piece of track has droppers to ensure connectivity. Power enters each of the 3 lines from the fiddle yard end. Using the switches to select which line is powered and divert power in a particular direction through the points, a specific route can be selected and the movement take place without affecting anything else.

 

In keeping with the low cost goals, the switches are cheap ones from Railroom Electronics. The blue and red wires are from the controller. The first 3 switches select DC or DCC (this has yet to be wired up) and which line, the remaining 4 switch the direction of power for each of the 4 points, effectively setting the routes.

 

gallery_24698_4156_517603.jpg

 

The red switch to the right is for the isolating section at the end of what will be the platform on line 1 (nearest the camera on the right)

 

gallery_24698_4156_1594912.jpg

 

Told you the wiring wasn't good......

 

gallery_24698_4156_2446434.jpg

 

Having wired up the switches and tested the layout, there is power everywhere. On testing the various route permutations I have found a minor problem. If I have locos in the fiddle yard in lines 2 and 3, and try to run the loco in line 2 into the siding in line 3, both locos move. I am going to have to map all the wires carefully to figure it out. I've already mapped the route/switch configurations and tested for power across the layout so that I know which parts are energised in any given setting, and there are several areas energised at the wrong time. So I'm guessing somewhere wires are joined that should be joined via the switches. It won't be hard for anyone who can do wiring diagrams etc, but I've never got my head around them!

 

gallery_24698_4156_34249.jpg

 

A job for another day. However the layout is usable and trains run happily around it.

Edited by ruggedpeak
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  • 3 weeks later...
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Electrical fault finding and assumptions.....

 

Having assumed that I had made a mistake with the wiring I spent some time checking switch positions, wiring connections between the 3 roads and points to find the mistake. But all the wires are in the correct place and connected to the right bits. As I kept pulling wires to check their run and try to work out what I didn't understand since I couldn't see any wiring that would power lanes 2 and 3 at the same time.

 

How could 2 lanes separately wired be simultaneously powered with no wired connection and insulfrog points set against the road? It is not possible. Except if there was a failure that I hadn't thought. :scratchhead: There was no short, no bridge I could find, but...........if a switch was faulty it could power both lanes  :O 

 

A minute or so later the mutlimeter showed that the switch that swaps power between lanes 2 and 3 was showing voltage across all 3 sets of connections. I'm sure switches aren't supposed to work like that......Problem found. I will fix later :)

 

A detective once told me the "Detective's ABC" (probably others use it to!):

 

A = Assume nothing (Fail, I assumed wrongly I'd messed up the wiring)

B = Believe no one (including yourself if you are making assumptions - see A above!)

C = Check everything (I was checking wiring, points, switch selections and connections but not the switches themselves).

 

Electrics sorted, have been running with 3 or 4 locos moving around. Need to get back to the scenery, but must find a way to make it detachable and robust.

Edited by ruggedpeak
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Hmm, I've been looking and wondering since you first mentioned it, but can't offer any helpful advice.  Just a thought - does it happen if one or both of the points are set straight?  I'm wondering too if you haven't made the wiring more complicated than you needed it, I'd have had six switches, three each to energise/isolate the fiddle yard roads and three more for those on the scenic sections, with one to switch the input feed from DC or DCC.  I have something similar on my small depot layout, which is DCC powered but some of the roads are fed via on/off switches so that a DC loco an sit there and be isolated safely from the constant DCC track power.

It looks like you've added power feeds on each diverging track, maybe you've mixed up one of the pairs of connections so that instead of + and - feed to the straight track and + and - to the curved track, you're accidentally feeding what should be the curved track power to the straight track.  The curved arm would still work as it's being fed from the other feed in the FY as well.  I think that makes sense.  

If you're still struggling, maybe there's another RMWeb member near you who could have a look, sometimes its something really obvious but needs a fresh pair of eyes to see it!

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I'm wondering too if you haven't made the wiring more complicated than you needed it, I'd have had six switches, three each to energise/isolate the fiddle yard roads and three more for those on the scenic sections, with one to switch the input feed from DC or DCC.

Me too! I think it probably is.

 

After spending a good few hours trying to trouble shoot, disconnecting about half the wiring, it wasn't  the switches or the wiring as such. I had attached dropper wires to the tabs under switch blades of the Peco Insulfrog points as it was easier than trying to attach to the track. This was causing some of the problem. When I isolated those wires things started to work. I think there were polarity issues or something.

 

I had a switch that switched the power from Fiddle Yard road 2 into either road 2 or 3. However both Fiddle 2 and 3 were being powered regadless of the switch position. Indeed all 3 parts of the DTDP switch were live. I do not fully understand what is happening but this continues, and it is something to do with the point. Anyway, although I have yet to figure out exactyl what is going on, by converting the switch from switching between Road 2 or 3, to just Road 3 or off, it now works as planned.

 

gallery_24698_4156_56704.jpg

 

The issue is that when power is sent from Fiddle 2 into Road 3 (solid line above) it also powers Fiddle 3 (dashed line).

 

It is something I've not understood along the way. The logic required for wiring and electrics is something I stuggle with.

 

It now works as planned, however. Operationally this means I can have a loco on every fiddle and road except for one to allow for movement. On Road 1 with its isolating section at the end I can have two locos. This means I can have 6 locos on the layout at once and still have movement. 6 is too many, 4 is a better number. Plenty of scope for movement, unless wagons are introduced, then it gets a bit tight!

 

Next is to have more of a play with the Class 150's and 153's (plus my new 121) which are the key units for the layout, plus see if a 158 2 car will fit. Then carry on with the scenery.

Edited by ruggedpeak
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Glad to hear you're making progress, even if its still not fully solved.  If you've discounted the other options, as you say it might be the tab under the point blade.  If the wire/solder/tab is touching the curved (upper in your pic) rail and the upper blade at the same time when the point is set curved and the blade is away from the rail, it's keeping the track live on the non-selected route.  For my layout I soldered the wires to the fishplates and then installed them at the ends of the points, nice and easy to work on away from the layout, and out of the way.  

 

Also, I see where you're coming from that power is fed from the FY to the scenic section, but is it the case that your combination of switches that are on is causing the problem, for example try switching the points and switches in all different combinations, it might help you figure it out!  If you run a train from F3 to R3 does that do the same and make the train in F2 move?

 

 

Edit to add pic.  I assume the power feeds are something like this (the red and green arrows) and that the problem is at the red spot, meaning that the point isn't isolating the part in red dots and so the red rail in F3 stays live.  Obviously the green one will be anyway unless you're using isolating fishplates.

post-14759-0-37705900-1512940825_thumb.jpg

Edited by JDW
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Yes, that was roughly my conclusion.

 

Power is applied only to the FY ends. However none of the points or sections are isolated (except the one on the main platform which is separate) and all are connected via swtiches to ensure power goes to droppers for the route selected.

 

I should have isolated the points as in some settings power is going to both FY 2 and 3 when I route FY3 into Road 3. By turning the switch that transferred power for that point (red dot) from one that sent it to FY 2 or 3, into one that sent power to to Road 3 or is off it has resolved it.

 

There is a simple explanation somewhere, but for some reasons I cannot fathom out even basic electrical matters :umbrage:

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As you say Tony, probably something really simple - its often the case that if someone else looked at it, they'd spot it in seconds, but sometimes you can't see the wood for the trees, and as you say, you've sorted it, in that you've got it to work, even of not quite as planned, and you get the desired results.  Now, on with the scenery...!

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Yes, Hoping to do a bit of running this weekend and may be a short video. Xmas may get in the way of finishing the scenery as I still have to work out how to fix the viaducts and retaining wall in place but make them removable. :)

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Another learning point - as configured the layout does not offer the opportunity for trains to pass each other. Once they are on the layout there is no way for them to pass each other or swap places. TO be able to pass off scene would enhance operations a bit.

 

The only place they can pass is in either FY2 or Road 2, as only the middle roads have connections to others. The only way to do this at present would be to create isolated sections in FY2 (Road 2 is too short for 2 locos to meet). Due to the size of loco's ranging from Class 33's to 40's, there would need to two isolating points as a 33 and 40 just fit, and the gap between them is in different locations depending upon which way round they are.

 

Will decide if I want to pull the track up. As its the FY its not a major disaster. Isolators as below:

 

gallery_24698_4156_31391.jpg

 

A bit of running with scenery propped up:

 

gallery_24698_4156_23309.jpg

 

gallery_24698_4156_3910.jpg

Edited by ruggedpeak
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So onwards with the scenery. All substantive scenery needs to be removal to allow the board to be carried without knocking it off.

 

First up is the station end board. A thin piece of ply painted black with cheap acrylics and screwed onto the end of the board for quick removal. It provides the position for the Metcalfe viaduct at that end, and stops expensive locos falling off the end!

 

gallery_24698_4156_1488.jpg

 

Then onto the precision engineering. The Metcalfe Retaining Wall needs to be self supporting and removable. After much thinking, buying some brackets and other bits, I have gone with a brass rod solution. A visit to my local model shop started with Evergreen plastruct square section, but following discussions I changed to brass tube - 7/32 and 3/16 tube that slides one inside the other.

 

The thinner rod is cut to length so that it fits inside the abutments of the wall. Each has a supporting piece inside so only about half the height is required. The rod is was packed into place with lots of off cuts and glued with Roket glue. Once dry they are nice and firm, three bits of rod along the wall.

 

gallery_24698_4156_48191.jpg

 

Corresponding holes were drilled into the baseboard and short lengths of the thicker tube glued in place with wood adhesive.

 

gallery_24698_4156_52091.jpg

 

At the same time the wall, which is 9 separate elements glued together, was reinforced with offcuts.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/image/84130-img-7194/

 

So now we have some scenery attached, and the brass rods seem to work quite well :)

 

gallery_24698_4156_29154.jpg

Edited by ruggedpeak
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Just an observation,

 

Hornby Y points are the same radius as the Hornby Express Points with an 832mm radius.

 

Not exactly compact.

 

Although the Y could be employed to permit two platform faces to be served by one line.

 

Which can be handy.

 

(Bear in mind the linking 'special' curves R628 are not exactly compact.)

 

The working radius of the Y (832mm) does not sit comfortably with standard Hornby R2 (458mm) point-work.

 

Peco Setrack Y is 859mm radius as is its special curve, making it the slightly better match to either manufacturer's standard R2 point-work.

 

Streamline Y points are 2' radius and match Streamline Left and Right switches at 2' radius.

 

As with much in life on budget micro layouts, you work with what you have; not with what you can buy...

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The Xmas break has provided some time to move this forward :)

 

With the electrics under control if not fully understood (!) I have progressed the scenery, primarily filling the gap between the retaining wall and the viaduct that leads to the fiddle yard, and constructing the platform. The platform was made from another Metcalfe kit - works quite well but due to Hornby points and 153's using the platform it has to be cut quite a way back from the rail edge. All the structure including the platform are removeable and simply placed onto the layout so they can be removed if it needs moving, as none will survive a bash.

 

Fortunately for the retaining wall Metcalfe included some matching wall in the kit as the retaining wall has blue engineering brick at the bottom, and this wall design is not in their Viaduct or Brick sheet kits. Using this I constructed an angled frame using the sprues from the kit to create a wall that would match the rest of the wall in terms of angle and look. This involved constructing several models/jigs to get the correct width for the gap.

 

gallery_24698_4156_39407.jpg

 

The wall included the top section with detail and capping so it looked consistent. Although it is not perfect, it does match and sits quite well. It has been firmly attached to the rest of the removable retaining wall.

 

gallery_24698_4156_10366.jpg

 

I then decided that having no ability for loco's to pass each other between the roads, I would add an extra siding in Fiddle Road 2 to allow them to pass. Fortunately dragging a piece of card under the track, plus some leverage from a screwdriver, separated the glued down track from the cork with minimal damage. Using a Hornby point and set track the siding has been added. Further electrical work is required to isolate the two sidings so they can be used to pass, but I will do this at a later date as it means drilling and removing the cover under the board that keeps the wiring in place!

 

gallery_24698_4156_55179.jpg

 

gallery_24698_4156_1436.jpg

 

The core of the layout is now complete - we have the viaducts and walling as the main scenic sections plus the end of the platform.

 

gallery_24698_4156_61924.jpg

 

With careful use of the switches I can operate up to 5 separate locos on the layout. Although I said 6 before this means very limited movement as there would only be one space free at any time. With the extra siding wired up properly this will increase to 7, but I think 5 is the optimum. It also assumes light locos/single car DMU's. Once I introduce a Pacer or 150 then we lose the extra space at the isolated end of the platform. Plenty of scope for movement however.

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The revised track plan is below. The siding takes a Class 68 and hopefully a Class 40 (yet to be tested). If the 153 is driven right to the end of the main road the 68 can leave the siding. So I will have to see if a Class 40 and 153 combo can use the siding, but for everything else it should be fine.

 

gallery_24698_4156_3676.jpg

 

Overall, at this point, I am pleased with how it has turned out. Not exactly prototypical in terms of track layout but gives plenty of scope for movement. It is also fairly non-descript so can be used with a range of trains that might be found in a major urban area, so suits my Scottish and Welsh stock.

 

In terms of next steps there is plenty of activity to be carried out:

 

  • weathering of viaducts and walls, thne varnishing
  • painting and ballasting track
  • detailing of the layout - I think interchangeable nameplates for the platform might be good
  • detailing the tops of the viaducts
  • signalling..... :O
Edited by ruggedpeak
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  • 2 months later...
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Not much has happened recently other than doing the ballasting and have also managed to acquire an Arriva Trains Wales 158 at a realistic price :) Even better 158's just fit into the the main platform so can be added to the roster.

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Handy hint - don't use felt tip to mark up your baseboard. Cause the colour gets soaked up into the PVA when you ballast - see the red tinge in the top half of the pic on the ballast.

 

gallery_24698_4156_3456007.jpg

Edited by ruggedpeak
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