RMweb Gold MarshLane Posted February 1, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 1, 2017 (edited) Evening all, Following on from the work that a couple of us having been doing around the TOPS system, we thought we would try and identify as many different types of traffic flows and customers as possible. Acknowledging that a wagonload (subsequently Speedlink) service from Bescot Yard to York Dringhouses could have 40-50 wagons, each potentially being for a different customer to a different destination, there appears to be few places where such information is logged for historical reference. We've made a start and will keep adding to this, through the attached PDF document (v2), and as new information comes to light (either contributed via rmWeb or discovered ourselves) we will add it, and I'll ensure that the document on this first post is always the latest we have. For each wagonload or bulk train flow we are looking to identify - Origin - Destination - Product being transported - Customer(s) - Wagonload or Trainload - Types of wagons - Any related information or notes on the flow The related information could be timings, operational information, more detailed wagon type, how the vehicles were circulated, which yards involved in the movement, rough or accurate dates that flows started/ended - basically ANY information that is related to flows. You might not know it all, every little helps (to quote a well known superstore!) so even if you maybe worked at a yard and can only remember odd bits, please post it, and we'll collate it all together. We have primarily started in Yorkshire / North East, but that just because its our area of interest - information from anywhere across the country would help, and should be documented, so that it truly becomes a nationwide project. For reference, this isn't our project. We're treating this as public domain historical information, the PDF is there to be used. A credit or reference to this thread if it is used or posted anywhere would be nice, as that may generate additional information. If you know people who might be interested in helping who are not on rmWeb, please print this post and the PDF, tell them about it, and ask them to email any info recollections, notes, copies of document anything, to marsh.lane@outlook.com. Today's railway is vastly different from 20-30 years ago, the idea of a wagonload network will be unimaginable to some younger enthusiasts, so lets document it now, while people remember and have archive material/photos to fall back on. Even if you cannot help now, please follow the topic, and check back regularly - as bits of information come up on different workings you may be able to assist us in the future. Thanks in advance to anyone who can help. Rich File Updates from the original posting: v2 - Original Upload v2.1 - Updated 1st February. v2.2 - Updated 1st February. v2.3 - Updated 2nd February. Total Downloads to v2.2: 21 - Mentioned because the download figure resets every time I update the file. Traffic Flows v2-3.pdf Edited February 2, 2017 by MarshLane 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 A few bits from memory:- Agricultural traffic Immingham to Carmarthen Jct. Coal; Exeter destination was Exmouth Jct, not Central Foss Island Destination for finished products included Paddock Wood (via Dover Speedlink), Penkridge (via Bescot yard) and Avonmouth. Unidentified flow at Hallen Marsh; could be zinc ingots for Bloxwich. There was another flow, initially in Belgian ferry opens, later in Tiphook bogie opens, of lead and zinc dross to a plant near Antwerp. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Banger Blue Posted February 1, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 1, 2017 Bitumen traffic to Cranmore. Did this not come from Ellesmere Port, usually 25 hauled? (I'll have a gander at my WTTs when I get a chance, off to work now.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold stovepipe Posted February 1, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 1, 2017 Cement Eastgate to South Dock, Heaton, Scunthorpe and Leeds - Presflos, up to mid-80s? Grain Doncaster - Dufftown - PO Hoppers Dunnington (DVR) - Scottish Distilleries Limestone Redmire - British Steel Redcar - PO hoppers up to 1992 Sand Middleton Towers - Foss Islands, bottle manufacturing at Redfern National Glass Food Also Foss Island - Wood Green, Rowntrees Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold MarshLane Posted February 1, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted February 1, 2017 To those who have already responded, and the four emails I've had, many thanks. I can see this forming into a very useful document going forward! Also, thanks to the chap who PM'd with details of how the wagon flow for industrial coal to Rugby worked. All useful data. I've updated the document with all the latest info. A lot is bulk traffic, so if anyone has any info on the smaller flows that went with Speedlink, that would be very useful too. Thanks again - keep the info flowing Rich 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonny777 Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 Was there timber from Boston Docks? I know there was in the 1960s but don't know how long it continued. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ess1uk Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 Great idea. I've been trying to find info for Eastleigh Salisbury and Westbury area. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnH Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 This is a great idea Rich and I wish you all the best with the project. I presume you've got David Ratcliffe's excellent 'Freight Train Formations' book? May be worth speaking to him for further information. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold MarshLane Posted February 2, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted February 2, 2017 Guys, Many thanks - I've just updated the document - from the original two pages that I uploaded at 5.30pm yesterday, its now eight pages! Thanks to everyone for their contributions so far, hopefully it will keep coming. If you've already looked, please have another look and see if you can fill in any of the blanks! Do we have any ground or yard staff who would be willing contribute their knowledge? jony7777: I've not come across timber traffic from Boston during the period, as yet. ess1uk: Thanks, there is some info in the document on Eastleigh - UKF vans for a few destinations travelled via Eastleigh Yard John H: Thanks, I think I have that book here somewhere, just need to find it! Plenty of sources to be going at, but each piece of info seems to throw up more queries at the moment to be honest! Cheers Rich 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ess1uk Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 i've got this thread for the UKF http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/86674-ukf-fertiliser-traffic-to-gillingham-and-andover/ that may help? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 Timber traffic from Boston, and the other East Anglian ports, lasted into the early 1970s. Destinations varied, but included Melton Mowbray, and one or more of the 'Black Country' steel terminals. Wagons were a mixture of Timber, Rectanks and Plates. Boston, and other ports in the region, did send steel coil to various West Midland terminals; initially using an assortment of BR vacuum coil wagons, then BR air-braked wagons and VTG sliding hood wagons. In very recent times, France-Wagons coil wagons have been used. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodyfox Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 An excellent source for such information can be found in the 'Railfreight Since 1968' series by Paul Shannon. I have 'Wagonload' (Shannon, 2006) - ISBN 978 1 85794 264 4 and 'Coal' (Shannon, 2006) - ISBN 978 1 85794 263 7, referring to both regularly. A considerable amount of information on various traffic flows can be gathered in the period 1970 to 1989 and beyond. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Banger Blue Posted February 2, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 2, 2017 Update on Cranmore Bitumen traffic: Originated at Ellesmere Port, conveyed via Westbury or Severn Tunnel Jn on either the following: 6V32 Ellesmere Port East Sidings - Exeter Riverside Yard. 6V33 Ellesmere Port East Sidings - Westbury Down Yard. Most pics on Flickr show 2x 25 haulage. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold MarshLane Posted February 2, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted February 2, 2017 Afternoon all, i've got this thread for the UKF http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/86674-ukf-fertiliser-traffic-to-gillingham-and-andover/ that may help? Ah - great, I'll compile the additional info and add it in. Timber traffic from Boston, and the other East Anglian ports, lasted into the early 1970s. Destinations varied, but included Melton Mowbray, and one or more of the 'Black Country' steel terminals. Wagons were a mixture of Timber, Rectanks and Plates. Boston, and other ports in the region, did send steel coil to various West Midland terminals; initially using an assortment of BR vacuum coil wagons, then BR air-braked wagons and VTG sliding hood wagons. In very recent times, France-Wagons coil wagons have been used. FC, thats really useful thanks - just touches on the period being covered. An excellent source for such information can be found in the 'Railfreight Since 1968' series by Paul Shannon. I have 'Wagonload' (Shannon, 2006) - ISBN 978 1 85794 264 4 and 'Coal' (Shannon, 2006) - ISBN 978 1 85794 263 7, referring to both regularly. A considerable amount of information on various traffic flows can be gathered in the period 1970 to 1989 and beyond. WoodyFox, many thanks. I knew about the 'Coal' book, but not the 'Wagonload' ... off to the rainforest to check! Update on Cranmore Bitumen traffic:Originated at Ellesmere Port, conveyed via Westbury or Severn Tunnel Jn on either the following:6V32 Ellesmere Port East Sidings - Exeter Riverside Yard.6V33 Ellesmere Port East Sidings - Westbury Down Yard.Most pics on Flickr show 2x 25 haulage. BB: Thats great, again many thanks. Presumably if the main train went to Exeter/Westbury, it conveyed traffic for other destinations? Rich 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 BB: Thats great, again many thanks. Presumably if the main train went to Exeter/Westbury, it conveyed traffic for other destinations? Rich There was a bitumen terminal at City Basin, Exeter, along with an ordinary oil depot. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivercider Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 Afternoon all, Ah - great, I'll compile the additional info and add it in. BB: Thats great, again many thanks. Presumably if the main train went to Exeter/Westbury, it conveyed traffic for other destinations? Rich I don't think so, I think the train to Westbury conveyed only traffic for Cranmore, and the train to Exeter Riverside conveyed only traffic for Exeter City Basin. There was also a bitumen terminal at Frome, but I think that traffic came from the Ripple Lane area. After the bitumen flow to Cranmore ceased I think it was handled at the coal concentration depot at Filton for a short while before finishing altogether cheers 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivercider Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 This thread from a couple of years was asking for information on freight traffic in the 1980s in the Westbury area, of which there was quite a variety http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/80719-westbury-freight-flows-speedlink-era/ cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 2, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 2, 2017 Bitumen traffic to Cranmore. Did this not come from Ellesmere Port, usually 25 hauled? (I'll have a gander at my WTTs when I get a chance, off to work now.) Thameshaven at one time the relevant (1975) Loads Book shows 1.6V32 02.00 MSX Ripple Lane - Exeter City Basin detaching at Witham (train also booked to detach at Reading which was fuel for the diesel depot), return working 6E33 12.30 MSX from City Basin - did not attach in the Westbury area 2.6V34 23.35 FO Ripple Lane - Westbury conveying tanks for Cranmore Connecting services 6B50 07.50 SO/11.31 SX Witham to Cranmore (Note: - could make several trips due to traffic levels as Class 25s had considerable difficulty getting more than 2 or 3 loaded cars up the gradient at Merehead Quarry Jcn) Return services 7E60 02.20 MX Westbury - Ripple Lane 6a-- 11.00 SO Witham - Acton Note that although the Loads Book shows tanks for Cranmore these trains also conveyed bitumen cars for Frome and these were tripped from Witham after tripping up the branch to Cranmore and from Westbury off the FO train. the working changed a bit over the years and latterly I'm fairly sure teh bitumen might have come from Fawley. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ess1uk Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 This thread from a couple of years was asking for information on freight traffic in the 1980s in the Westbury area, of which there was quite a variety http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/80719-westbury-freight-flows-speedlink-era/ cheers I'd forgotten about that thread, thanks for jogging the memory Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium SR Chris Posted February 3, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 3, 2017 "• Cerestar traffic (cereals?) moved from Manchester Trafford Park to Aberdeen Waterloo, but what other traffic was shipped from Trafford Park?" There was a flow of starch for use in paper making using Cerestar liveried tankers between Trafford Park and Bowaters in Sittingbourne. I often saw the tankers being unloaded in a small shed just North of Sittingbourne station at the boundary of Bowaters site, or sitting in the yard awaiting the return working. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 "• Cerestar traffic (cereals?) moved from Manchester Trafford Park to Aberdeen Waterloo, but what other traffic was shipped from Trafford Park?" There was a flow of starch for use in paper making using Cerestar liveried tankers between Trafford Park and Bowaters in Sittingbourne. I often saw the tankers being unloaded in a small shed just North of Sittingbourne station at the boundary of Bowaters site, or sitting in the yard awaiting the return working. Also;- general scrap from there to ASW Cardiff wheelsets from what had been GEC, along with scrap to Stocksbridge. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold MarshLane Posted February 4, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted February 4, 2017 Thanks to the Fat Controller, Rivercider, Stationmaster and SR Green. Can anyone identify any of the Speedlink traffics handled by Healey Mill sorting sidings? That location seems to be a be quiet on documentation. There was obviously a fair amount of wagonload traffic sorted there, due to the size of the sorting yards. Rich Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted February 4, 2017 Share Posted February 4, 2017 Thanks to the Fat Controller, Rivercider, Stationmaster and SR Green. Can anyone identify any of the Speedlink traffics handled by Healey Mill sorting sidings? That location seems to be a be quiet on documentation. There was obviously a fair amount of wagonload traffic sorted there, due to the size of the sorting yards. Rich Not sure how much Speedlink traffic was handled at Healey Mills, if any; most from that area was handled at York (Dringhouses) or Doncaster (Belmont). In latter years, most of the yard seems to have been disused, at least for traffic purposes, though there were freights planned to recess there. The size of the yard was mainly due to the need to handle huge numbers of coal wagons in pre-Merry-Go-Round days; once MGR workings were introduced, coal traffic was decimated, with the remaining traffic being some industrial, export and domestic flows. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted February 4, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 4, 2017 There was a speedlink from Tees which called at Healey Mills, it often ran a a class 7 which I think was TTAs going back to stanlow I think it may have been 7M49 but it's a long time ago. I do remember the engine was normally a Thornaby 47 which came off and worked a return working 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivercider Posted February 4, 2017 Share Posted February 4, 2017 The List of Trains run in connection with Speedlink Services with effevt from 17th May 1982 included the following trains:- 6D66 01.15 MX Healey Mills - Scunthorpe 6M86 16.48 SX Healey Mills - Toton (calling Tinsley) 6M89 19.56 SX Scunthorpe - Ashburys (calling Healey Mills 21.25 - 22.47) 6M64 20.00 SX Tees Yard - Ellesmere Port (calling Healey Mills 22.50 - 23.50) 6E95 20.15 SX Warrington - York Dringhouses (calling Healey Mills 22.42 - 23.54) Plus the following local trips which may give an indication as to traffic flows. 8D82 03.55 MX Healey Mills - Doncaster 9K43 07.52 SX Healey Mills - Dewsbury 9K43 09.47 SX Dewsbury - Healey Mills 8K58 05.20 SX Healey Mills - Hunslet 4K59 11.23 SX Wakefield - Healey Mills 8K57 14.15 SX Hunslet - Healey Mills 8E64 20.06 SX Ardwick E.-Healey Mills cheers 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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