Pullmans over the Mendips?

[JZ]

Browsing through this months Steam Days, I came across a reference to a 'Pullman sightseeing excursion' hauled as far as Templecombe by 70029 Shooting Star,'it's passengers destined for Bath'. This was on 10 June 1953, a Wednesday. This was near the end of the Merchant Navy axle saga. Does anyone know if the Pullmans continued to Bath, or were the passengers transferred to other stock?  If they did, the fact it was a Wednesday may be the reason Ivo Peters never captured it, but then it seem he was adept at getting time off for some more unusual motive power photo's.

 Being a fan of the Pullman services, I like the idea of a train of them being hauled through Gurney Slade by a grubby 7F.

 

In my heart, I feel they never left Southern metals as they were likely 'borrowed' from other services and needed back.

[APOLLO]

I understand Brittanias were banned over the S&D, though they got to Bath green park via Mangotsfield.

 

Brit15

[JZ]

It did say that Shooting Star only hauled the train as far as Templecombe.

[Captain Kernow]

Wasn't there once even a photo of a 'Clan' at Bath Green Park, having worked in there via the Midland line?

[Jim49]

I don't know if a 'Clan' ever did make it to Bath Green Park but the back page of "Footplate Over The Mendips" by Peter Smith shows Loading Tables for BR Standard engines working over the S&D Railway.

 

These include a listing for 'Clan' Pacifics with a permitted load of 290 tons between Bath and Masbury and 400/425 tons elsewhere. 

 

I believe that a 'Britannia" did appear at BGP at least once so if you have that picture and you screw up your eyes & squint a little, it could just be mistaken as a 'Clan'.

 

 

Jim

[RFS]

Here's 70034 at Bath Green Park in 1965 - http://railphotoprints.uk/p752970880/h21fb59df#h21fb59df

[jonny777]

Another angle of the same event https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/e3/be/76/e3be7644b2dc6c444a86ed8a1cb7a610.jpg

[Chris116]

It is interesting to note that www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk does not make any reference to a railtour on 10th June 1953.

[JZ]

It is interesting to note that www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk does not make any reference to a railtour on 10th June 1953.

All I have to go on is this half paragraph.from February's Steam Days.

[JZ]

Wasn't there once even a photo of a 'Clan' at Bath Green Park, having worked in there via the Midland line?

I understand that one made it to Temple Meads, but not sure where that information came from.

 

I don't know if a 'Clan' ever did make it to Bath Green Park but the back page of "Footplate Over The Mendips" by Peter Smith shows Loading Tables for BR Standard engines working over the S&D Railway.

 

These include a listing for 'Clan' Pacifics with a permitted load of 290 tons between Bath and Masbury and 400/425 tons elsewhere. 

 

Jim

If the next batch of Clans had been built, I read somewhere that 2 would have been allocated to GP.

[Chris116]

All I have to go on is this half paragraph.from February's Steam Days.

001.jpg

I was not questioning the information you had, I was simply surprised that sixbellsjunction website did not have a record of an excursion on that day, which makes finding out extra details harder than it already was.

[JZ]

I was not questioning the information you had, I was simply surprised that sixbellsjunction website did not have a record of an excursion on that day, which makes finding out extra details harder than it already was.

I did think of emailing them, but the link to it doesn't seem to work. Besides, he says he's inundated with email. I might drop a line to Steam Days.

 

The fact there is little information gives me modellers licence.

 

Edit. Just emailed Steam Days in the hope that someone can shed more light on this. Any info will be forwarded to 6BJ.

Edited February 13, 2017 by JZ

[Dunsignalling]

It did say that Shooting Star only hauled the train as far as Templecombe.

And it doesn't state that it arrived at Templecombe via the Somerset & Dorset from Bournemouth, either.

 

It could have come down the WoE main line from Waterloo. 

 

John

[JZ]

And it doesn't state that it arrived at Templecombe via the Somerset & Dorset from Bournemouth, either.

 

It could have come down the WoE main line from Waterloo. 

 

John

I imagine it would have done.

[RFS]

If 70029 hauled the train to Templecombe then the train will have originated at Waterloo, and was hauled by 70029 because not all of the MNs were back in service following inspection/repairs of their crank axles.  The train would have then been worked forward to Bath via an S&D engine (or two).

[TheSignalEngineer]

The S&D was Route Colour Blue.

Route Availability from the 1960 WTT is as follows

 

[pH]

Way OT - but I wonder why LMS-designed tanks 42687-42699 weren't allowed? They were part of the same Derby-built batch as 42673-42686 which are included in the "authorised" list. And they were nowhere near the last ones built, so it's not as if the list was mistakenly copied over from an LMS list made up when the class was still incomplete.

 

As I say, way OT. Just an observation.

[bécasse]

Way OT - but I wonder why LMS-designed tanks 42687-42699 weren't allowed? They were part of the same Derby-built batch as 42673-42686 which are included in the "authorised" list. And they were nowhere near the last ones built, so it's not as if the list was mistakenly copied over from an LMS list made up when the class was still incomplete.

 

As I say, way OT. Just an observation.

 

As a guess, given that those locos that were permitted were subject to special speed restrictions, the non-permitted locos were marginally heavier, either overall or in maximum axle load, and that was sufficient to get them banned.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Also a lot of locos missing in the Ivatt Class 4 2-6-0, and the 78xxx is allowed but no mention of the Ivatt equivalent. Same with 84xxx ans Ivatt tanks.

 

At the time of that list at least 4 locos allocated to Bath Green Park and 4 allocated to Templecombe didn't appear to be authorised but a Clan or Bulleid Q1 were OK.

Edited February 14, 2017 by TheSignalEngineer

[melmerby]

I assume the fact that no outside cylindered "blue" GWR locos are on the list is because of clearance issues?

 

Keith

[JZ]

I assume the fact that no outside cylindered "blue" GWR locos are on the list is because of clearance issues?

 

Keith

I think this was the case.

 

Also a lot of locos missing in the Ivatt Class 4 2-6-0, and the 78xxx is allowed but no mention of the Ivatt equivalent. Same with 84xxx ans Ivatt tanks.

 

At the time of that list at least 4 locos allocated to Bath Green Park and 4 allocated to Templecombe didn't appear to be authorised but a Clan or Bulleid Q1 were OK.

Can see no obvious reason why only a few of this class are allowed. Crabs don't make the list, even though they appeared on the line prior to 1950. All LMS 2-6-4T apart from the last 13 Fairburns.

I see WD 2-8-0s appear on the list when they were found to have woefully inadequate braking for tackling the Mendips.

Edited February 14, 2017 by JZ

[bécasse]

WD 2-8-0s wouldn't have been the only locos on the list to have had inadequate braking, Q1s wouldn't have stood a chance of stopping an unfitted goods on some of the banks, although they would have been OK, albeit a bit rough, on a short passenger set or on fitted ballast hoppers. There is no evidence, however, that Q1s ever got closer to the S&D than a very rare servicing visit to Templecombe shed after working the Monday morning pick up goods from Exmouth Junction.

[geoffers]

Believe Q1s passed through Broadstone on occasions - not on the S&D it is true but a very near miss all the same. As would passing Wimborne Junction too. Some were goods trains - others Cardiff to Brighton(?) passenger trains travelling the "Old Road" to Brockenhurst - read that somewhere in a mag (Steam Days possibly)  GWR locos 56XX were tried as well but suffered from braking issues on descent from the Mendips. The S&D 7Fs had phenomenal braking abilities due to them using Ferodo (composite rubber) brake blocks rather than cast iron blocks. They were fitted in the late 1930s I think. They lasted much longer too. I have often wondered whether these Ferodo blocks were ever fitted to other classes. And if not - why not? Anyone know?

Edited March 3, 2017 by geoffers

[jjnewitt]

GWR locos 56XX were tried as well but suffered from braking issues on descent from the Mendips. 

I wonder how many stories like this were propaganda by men who've had unfamiliar foreign engines forced upon them. It seemed to happen all over the place. The 5600s were of course designed to haul coal trains down hills in South Wales which they did very successfully. The gradients on the Somerset on Dorset are steep but defiately no worse than the valleys and the trains no heavier...

 

Justin

[Dunsignalling]

Believe Q1s passed through Broadstone on occasions - not on the S&D it is true but a very near miss all the same. As would passing Wimborne Junction too. Some were goods trains - others Cardiff to Brighton(?) passenger trains travelling the "Old Road" to Brockenhurst - read that somewhere in a mag (Steam Days possibly)  GWR locos 56XX were tried as well but suffered from braking issues on descent from the Mendips. The S&D 7Fs had phenomenal braking abilities due to them using Ferodo (composite rubber) brake blocks rather than cast iron blocks. They were fitted in the late 1930s I think. They lasted much longer too. I have often wondered whether these Ferodo blocks were ever fitted to other classes. And if not - why not? Anyone know?

Tender locos were preferred on the S&D main line because of their greater water capacity. Water provision on the route was a bit patchy and tank locos need to make more water stops. The mix of single and double track sections meant they could "get in the way" of other trains.

 

I would think that would have had more to do with objections to the 56xx than anything else but if the staff (on any line) didn't want a particular loco they'd jump on any extra reasons they could find, however flimsy.

 

The Ferodo thing has always seemed a bit of a mystery to me, too. I suspect that it could have been something as simple as the braking system on the 7Fs suiting composite brake blocks "as is" where other classes might have needed adaptations to get the best from them.

 

John

Edited March 3, 2017 by Dunsignalling