Southern Region 3 aspect colour light signalling

[Albert Bridge]

Hi All

 

I have passed on your useful information to Alan and now he is indecisive as to whether he should be using point machines and colour lights or mechanical signalling for the period of 1970 plus or minus a couple of years.

 

Any thoughts would be welcome. Also are there any thoughts on whether it would be bullhead or flat bottom rail for the main roads as it is not on a mainline route.

 

Thanks for your support.

 

Bert.

[Siberian Snooper]

I have been hoping that some of the great and the good, would answer the questions as although I was born and raised in 3 rail country, I failed to take much notice of proceedings back then, being  firmly ensconced in the steam camp although I can barely remember steam, I now find that I have a benign interest in 3 rail proceedings these days.

[bécasse]

I would suggest that the answer your friend is looking for is to have semaphore signalling but at the point where preparatory work had started to introduce c/l signalling.

 

The advantages of this are firstly that the semaphore signals required are readily available from the model trade and would need little work to match the exact requirements of this layout, and, of course, semaphore signals were more typical of SR electrified branch termini at this period than c/l. Secondly, one of the early preparatory tasks for conversion, apart from concrete bases for signals, concrete troughing and brick-built relay rooms, was the conversion of pointwork that was going to be retained to motor operation from the existing box. This was done because the final changeover was done in just a few hours on a Sunday morning and it was easy to fit point-motors worked from the existing box because the existing locking didn't need to be disturbed - at changeover one set of fuses was pulled out and a different set put in, changing the working of the point-motors from the old box to the new. The advantage to the modeller of this is that point motors and their cables are much easier to model than point rodding, you wouldn't need locking bars either since track circuits would provide the locking.

 

The semaphore signalling that is required is:

 

Down home with calling-on arm and route indicator, use a Ratio home+distant signal removing the notch from the distant and repainting it from yellow to white with red horizontal stripes - it could have a C mounted on the arm or there could be a small black box to the right of the post [correction] which displayed an illuminated C when the arm was raised. The route-indicator would have to be a (simple) scratch-build mounted on a platform bracketed out from the post below the arms, see the equivalent signal at Tattenham Corner on this web page http://www.semgonline.com/proto/semaphore_02.html . I have included some drawings at the end of this post, the route-indicator is among them.

 

A down running shunt - a red Westinghouse dolly - on the up line, but facing down, and protecting the crossover closest to the terminal. It would be cleared for arrivals at the "up side" terminal platform (which would be platform 1 under SR standard numbering), movements from the depot and shunts towards either platform. Wizard Models, through their Model Signalling Engineering brand, supply easy to assemble kits for these dollies.

 

 

Two platform up starters, each a Ratio home signal and each with a red Westinghouse dolly for movements towards the depot. Ideally the posts for these signals would be shorter than as supplied by Ratio with the dolly bracketed off them to the left, but the dolly could be ground mounted without actually being wrong - again Wizard models.

 

An up advanced starting signal (sited more or less at the end of the layout) which could be either a Ratio home signal or a Ratio home+distant depending on the distance to the imaginary next box (may be an off-stage level crossing, for example).

 

A yellow dolly controlling the egress from the depot neck to the up running line (it wouldn't be cleared for movements from the neck into the depot). Again the Wizard Model kit would be used, either with the disc filed down to just an arm+spectacle or with the disc painted yellow on a black background (instead of red on a white background).

 

I have attached two pages of drawings, done half-a-century ago, some of which are relevant and some not:

 

I have also attached several photos taken in 1962/63, ironically the first is at Sheerness (diagram in post #21), which might just prove useful as the second shows [correction] Westinghouse M3 point motors (which could be put together from scraps of plasticard if all else failed). Note that all the track is bullhead, and that concrete sleepers on electrified lines were an absolute no-no at this period, it was only later that they became available with pre-cast holes for fixing the conductor rail pots.

[Siberian Snooper]

Thanks, that has got some very old brain cells ticking over, I need to lay down in a dark room and scratch my head for a while.

[Southernman46]

With electric locking -

 

http://www.wbsframe.mste.co.uk/public/Waterloo.html

 

One of the 1936 mimic panels showing Waterloo station adorns the wall in the entrance foyer of the current Wimbledon SC.

[The Stationmaster]

I would suggest that the answer your friend is looking for is to have semaphore signalling but at the point where preparatory work had started to introduce c/l signalling.

 

The advantages of this are firstly that the semaphore signals required are readily available from the model trade and would need little work to match the exact requirements of this layout, and, of course, semaphore signals were more typical of SR electrified branch termini at this period than c/l. Secondly, one of the early preparatory tasks for conversion, apart from concrete bases for signals, concrete troughing and brick-built relay rooms, was the conversion of pointwork that was going to be retained to motor operation from the existing box. This was done because the final changeover was done in just a few hours on a Sunday morning and it was easy to fit point-motors worked from the existing box because the existing locking didn't need to be disturbed - at changeover one set of fuses was pulled out and a different set put in, changing the working of the point-motors from the old box to the new. The advantage to the modeller of this is that point motors and their cables are much easier to model than point rodding, you wouldn't need locking bars either since track circuits would provide the locking.

 

The semaphore signalling that is required is:

 

Down home with calling-on arm and route indicator, use a Ratio home+distant signal removing the notch from the distant and repainting it from yellow to white with red horizontal stripes - it could have a C mounted on the arm or there could be a small black box behind the arm which displayed an illuminated C when the arm was raised. The route-indicator would have to be a (simple) scratch-build mounted on a platform bracketed out from the post below the arms, see the equivalent signal at Tattenham Corner on this web page http://www.semgonline.com/proto/semaphore_02.html . I have included some drawings at the end of this post, the route-indicator is among them.

 

A down running shunt - a red Westinghouse dolly - on the up line, but facing down, and protecting the crossover closest to the terminal. It would be cleared for arrivals at the "up side" terminal platform (which would be platform 1 under SR standard numbering), movements from the depot and shunts towards either platform. Wizard Models, through their Model Signalling Engineering brand, supply easy to assemble kits for these dollies.

 

 

Two platform up starters, each a Ratio home signal and each with a red Westinghouse dolly for movements towards the depot. Ideally the posts for these signals would be shorter than as supplied by Ratio with the dolly bracketed off them to the left, but the dolly could be ground mounted without actually being wrong - again Wizard models.

 

An up advanced starting signal (sited more or less at the end of the layout) which could be either a Ratio home signal or a Ratio home+distant depending on the distance to the imaginary next box (may be an off-stage level crossing, for example).

 

A yellow dolly controlling the egress from the depot neck to the up running line (it wouldn't be cleared for movements from the neck into the depot). Again the Wizard Model kit would be used, either with the disc filed down to just an arm+spectacle or with the disc painted yellow on a black background (instead of red on a white background).

 

I have attached two pages of drawings, done half-a-century ago, some of which are relevant and some not:

SRsigsDwg1.jpg

SRsigsDwg2.jpg

 

I have also attached several photos taken in 1962/63, ironically the first is at Sheerness (diagram in post #21), which might just prove useful as two of the show Westinghouse M3 point motors (which could be put together from scraps of plasticard if all else failed). Note that all the track is bullhead, and that concrete sleepers on electrified lines were an absolute no-no at this period, it was only later that they became available with pre-cast holes for fixing the conductor rail pots.

Sheerness1963.jpg

SRpoints1963.jpg

Tonbridge1962.jpg

FolkestoneHbr1963.jpg

 

The point machine in the first photo - working the wide-to-gauge trap - is an SGE pattern machine (I belief SGE was the main contractor on the Sheerness branch resignalling),; the two in the picture below are Westinghouse M3 (possibly M3A but I think M3 judging by a couple of features).

 

The picture of the wide-to-gauge trap is very interesting as its not often you see decent overhead views of the way they are set up

[Albert Bridge]

I would suggest that the answer your friend is looking for is to have semaphore signalling but at the point where preparatory work had started to introduce c/l signalling.

 

The advantages of this are firstly that the semaphore signals required are readily available from the model trade and would need little work to match the exact requirements of this layout, and, of course, semaphore signals were more typical of SR electrified branch termini at this period than c/l. Secondly, one of the early preparatory tasks for conversion, apart from concrete bases for signals, concrete troughing and brick-built relay rooms, was the conversion of pointwork that was going to be retained to motor operation from the existing box. This was done because the final changeover was done in just a few hours on a Sunday morning and it was easy to fit point-motors worked from the existing box because the existing locking didn't need to be disturbed - at changeover one set of fuses was pulled out and a different set put in, changing the working of the point-motors from the old box to the new. The advantage to the modeller of this is that point motors and their cables are much easier to model than point rodding, you wouldn't need locking bars either since track circuits would provide the locking.

 

The semaphore signalling that is required is:

 

Down home with calling-on arm and route indicator, use a Ratio home+distant signal removing the notch from the distant and repainting it from yellow to white with red horizontal stripes - it could have a C mounted on the arm or there could be a small black box behind the arm which displayed an illuminated C when the arm was raised. The route-indicator would have to be a (simple) scratch-build mounted on a platform bracketed out from the post below the arms, see the equivalent signal at Tattenham Corner on this web page http://www.semgonline.com/proto/semaphore_02.html . I have included some drawings at the end of this post, the route-indicator is among them.

 

A down running shunt - a red Westinghouse dolly - on the up line, but facing down, and protecting the crossover closest to the terminal. It would be cleared for arrivals at the "up side" terminal platform (which would be platform 1 under SR standard numbering), movements from the depot and shunts towards either platform. Wizard Models, through their Model Signalling Engineering brand, supply easy to assemble kits for these dollies.

 

 

Two platform up starters, each a Ratio home signal and each with a red Westinghouse dolly for movements towards the depot. Ideally the posts for these signals would be shorter than as supplied by Ratio with the dolly bracketed off them to the left, but the dolly could be ground mounted without actually being wrong - again Wizard models.

 

An up advanced starting signal (sited more or less at the end of the layout) which could be either a Ratio home signal or a Ratio home+distant depending on the distance to the imaginary next box (may be an off-stage level crossing, for example).

 

A yellow dolly controlling the egress from the depot neck to the up running line (it wouldn't be cleared for movements from the neck into the depot). Again the Wizard Model kit would be used, either with the disc filed down to just an arm+spectacle or with the disc painted yellow on a black background (instead of red on a white background).

 

I have attached two pages of drawings, done half-a-century ago, some of which are relevant and some not:

SRsigsDwg1.jpg

SRsigsDwg2.jpg

 

I have also attached several photos taken in 1962/63, ironically the first is at Sheerness (diagram in post #21), which might just prove useful as two of the show Westinghouse M3 point motors (which could be put together from scraps of plasticard if all else failed). Note that all the track is bullhead, and that concrete sleepers on electrified lines were an absolute no-no at this period, it was only later that they became available with pre-cast holes for fixing the conductor rail pots.

Sheerness1963.jpg

SRpoints1963.jpg

Tonbridge1962.jpg

FolkestoneHbr1963.jpg

 

Thanks very much for the info, I will pass it to Alan tonight at the club. It has me teetering on the brink of giving him a hand with this project. Phil will be relieved to know that bullhead track is OK, as I think he may get lumbered with building it.

 

In the meantime

 

Thanks

 

Bert

[bécasse]

The point machine in the first photo - working the wide-to-gauge trap - is an SGE pattern machine (I belief SGE was the main contractor on the Sheerness branch resignalling),; the two in the picture below are Westinghouse M3 (possibly M3A but I think M3 judging by a couple of features).

 

The picture of the wide-to-gauge trap is very interesting as its not often you see decent overhead views of the way they are set up

 

Thanks for that. I had noticed that the machine was different but had wondered if it resulted from the need to drive the two blades in opposite directions (and, of course, the machine working the ordinary trap is totally hidden by the spectators so I had no local comparison). I did, incidentally, have official permission to climb the gantry to take the photo, it was the first wide-to-guide gauge trap I had seen and the S&T manager wasn't exactly complementary about the concept (to put it mildly). Note that although there isn't a visibility jacket to be seen, there are several trilby-covered heads.

 

The machines in the other photo are definitely M3s, the photo predates the introduction of the M3A.

 

Were the SGE machines the ones that had to be hand wound from the side? Not a popular feature in third rail areas, the M3s were wound from the top which was much easier.

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks for that. I had noticed that the machine was different but had wondered if it resulted from the need to drive the two blades in opposite directions (and, of course, the machine working the ordinary trap is totally hidden by the spectators so I had no local comparison). I did, incidentally, have official permission to climb the gantry to take the photo, it was the first wide-to-guide gauge trap I had seen and the S&T manager wasn't exactly complementary about the concept (to put it mildly). Note that although there isn't a visibility jacket to be seen, there are several trilby-covered heads.

 

The machines in the other photo are definitely M3s, the photo predates the introduction of the M3A.

 

Were the SGE machines the ones that had to be hand wound from the side? Not a popular feature in third rail areas, the M3s were wound from the top which was much easier.

 

That version of the SGE machine was wound from the top - the cover over the crank handle hole is visible at the far end just this side of the motor (the bit right on the far end)

[Albert Bridge]

Alan sends his thanks to all and has now decided to go with the semaphores, although, I think the calling on and dummy signals may need a little more explaining, but I stand to be corrected.

 

Phil will be getting the contract for turnout building, but he doesn't know it yet.

 

Bert

[71000]

I think I am right in saying that at the end of the 1960s the only Southern branch terminus in the suburban area with colour light signalling was Bromley North, and that had trains to neither Victoria nor Waterloo. It was also a bit of a special case because the branch was so short.

 

Everywhere else still had semaphore signalling. Your terminus would require a down home with calling-on signal and a mechanical route indicator,  a yellow dolly (probably a yellow on black clipped disc by 1969 but possibly still a yellow arm) guarding the exit from the depot, a red dolly at the London end of the crossover closest to the platforms (which would be cleared for both arrivals at platform 1 and movements from the depot to either platform, up starting signals from each of the two platforms each with a red dolly (for movements to the depot) and finally an advanced starting signal. There would, of course, also have been a fixed down distant.

 

The calling-on signal is required because of the Southern practice of berthing stock off-peak in terminal platforms but still running trains in and out of the remaining part of the platform.

H