Replacing Mashima motors

[PenrithBeacon]

Has anyone done a comparison between the Mashima range of motors and potential replacements? If they have would they mind sharing it?

 

Regards

[davefrk]

Hi David, Mashima's are still available from various outlets eg. Highlevel.

 

Dave Franks.

[PenrithBeacon]

Hi David, Mashima's are still available from various outlets eg. Highlevel.

 

Dave Franks.

Thanks for that, I recently bought two off eBay, but the prices are going up (which is what you might expect). If, however, the hobby got it's proverbial bum into gear and started to promote alternatives it might save modellers some money.

 

Regards

[burgundy]

It strikes me as an important question for anyone developing new products, such as gearboxes or fixing brackets for loco kits. There is a need to "future proof" such items, so that they can readily interface with a motor that is reliable, with known performance characteristics and availability. The fact that there are still some Mashima motors around is merely putting off the evil day.

Best wishes 

Eric 

[Kelly]

There's been several threads in the 2mm section of experiments with various motors.

[MarcD]

We are struggling to find a future proof motor and gear box that is small enough for our 7mm Victorian locos. There seams to be little interest in anyone supplying small motors on a 3/16 axel.

Marc

[DavidLong]

Just come across these on ebay:

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5-Pole-Rotor-Coreless-Motor-DC-12V-13000RPM-Strong-NdFeB-Magnetic-High-Quality-/282381613597?var=&hash=item41bf417a1d:m:mdrtk-PQNeCn5TQWO1IH3dA

 

Should be ok for 4mm scale but obviously not a reliable long-term replacement for Mashima. Probably worth a try for under a fiver with free postage.

 

David

[MarcD]

Just come across these on ebay:

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5-Pole-Rotor-Coreless-Motor-DC-12V-13000RPM-Strong-NdFeB-Magnetic-High-Quality-/282381613597?var=&hash=item41bf417a1d:m:mdrtk-PQNeCn5TQWO1IH3dA

 

Should be ok for 4mm scale but obviously not a reliable long-term replacement for Mashima. Probably worth a try for under a fiver with free postage.

 

David

 

Just ordered one will post results

 

Marc

[tamperman36]

one issue reguarding finding a replacement for the Mashima motors is finding alternative options for mounting and fixing them, not all motors have mounting screw holes drilled into the front plate. Maybe someone could develop a gearbox with some sort of fixing clamp attached.

[MarcD]

one step a head of you there I have a basic design for a printed gearbox with nylon gears. All i need is a motor that gives good proformance ant the need size then we are in busuiness.

 

Marc

[Barry O]

Andrew at Wizzard is selling Canon replacements for Mashimas. The small one I have seems fine.

 

Beware some of the eBay motors though as some are rated at less than 12v. There are lots of motors on EBay. A colleague has a few samples to be tested and I have some under order.

 

Baz

[Arthur]

 

I too have recently ordered some of the 12v flat cans from eBay. They had a worm fitted which needed removing. They also had two screw mounting holes but arranged diagonally across the front face.

 

They fitted the High Level gearbox but were held at an angle such that the one I tried wouldn't fit into the locos bonnet. I redrilled the gearbox faceplate and it then fitted and, so far, has worked fine. It was a replacement for a Mashima in a Judith Edge 65 ton Hunslet. Had I been building the kit from new I'd have widened the hole in the footplate to suit the motor mountung.

 

I noticed that the gearbox templates on the High Level site now show the faceplates with these diagonal holes etched through.

 

.

[BG John]

Beware some of the eBay motors though as some are rated at less than 12v.

Just what I need for radio controlled locos. Where are they, as when I search for them I don't find many, but when I'm not specifically looking, I find loads, but don't save a link!

[Jol Wilkinson]

Andrew at Wizzard is selling Canon replacements for Mashimas. The small one I have seems fine.

 

Beware some of the eBay motors though as some are rated at less than 12v. There are lots of motors on EBay. A colleague has a few samples to be tested and I have some under order.

 

Baz

 

I can only find a Canon 1620 motor on the Wizard site, is that the one you have?

 

I too have recently ordered some of the 12v flat cans from eBay. They had a worm fitted which needed removing. They also had two screw mounting holes but arranged diagonally across the front face.

 

They fitted the High Level gearbox but were held at an angle such that the one I tried wouldn't fit into the locos bonnet. I redrilled the gearbox faceplate and it then fitted and, so far, has worked fine. It was a replacement for a Mashima in a Judith Edge 65 ton Hunslet. Had I been building the kit from new I'd have widened the hole in the footplate to suit the motor mountung.

 

I noticed that the gearbox templates on the High Level site now show the faceplates with these diagonal holes etched through.

 

.

 

There are a number of motors being suggested as suitable replacements for Mashima, notably a Mitsumi  motor, selling for £1.00 - £7.00 depending on where you look. They are slightly larger than a Mashima 1224.

 

I bought a several of these to test and initial impressions are that they seem ok, starting (no load) at about the same voltage as a Mashima 1224 and drawing about twice the current (.4A) when stalled at 12V. The most obvious difference is noticeably more noise/vibration when running at higher speed, presumably as they are three pole, rather than the five pole of the Mashima. They have polarity marked connectors and one ran unevenly at low speed "in reverse", possibly due to brush contact problems. They have finger type brushes - presumably optimised for one direction of rotation, whereas the Mashimas have tubular brush holders so that direction of rotation is irrelevant.

[cctransuk]

The most obvious difference is noticeably more noise/vibration when running at higher speed, presumably as they are three pole, rather than the five pole of the Mashima.

 

Odd - in my experience these motors are actually quieter than Mashimas.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Michael Edge]

I too have recently ordered some of the 12v flat cans from eBay. They had a worm fitted which needed removing. They also had two screw mounting holes but arranged diagonally across the front face.

They fitted the High Level gearbox but were held at an angle such that the one I tried wouldn't fit into the locos bonnet. I redrilled the gearbox faceplate and it then fitted and, so far, has worked fine. It was a replacement for a Mashima in a Judith Edge 65 ton Hunslet. Had I been building the kit from new I'd have widened the hole in the footplate to suit the motor mountung.

I noticed that the gearbox templates on the High Level site now show the faceplates with these diagonal holes etched through.

.

I have used that one with a High Level Roadrunner+, it runs very well but rather slowly.

[Izzy]

I also have a few Mitsumis from various sources with one attached to a 60-1 roadrunner+. It's okay, well made, but nowhere near an equivalent Mashima. The armature seems rather small for the size of the motor - nothing like those found in Mashimas - and this is reflected in the power output, which doesn't seem that great. They also seem to resonance/vibrate a bit when not firmly fixed -  I tried fitting a flywheel on one which made things ten times worse - and don't seem to like running on DCC too much - whatever the decoder type or the settings used. Probably the nature of what they are/were primarily designed for, photo copiers I believe. But when push comes to shove and there is nothing else around........

 

Izzy

[cctransuk]

I tried fitting a flywheel on one which made things ten times worse ........

 

 

I have one fitted in my current project - GT3 - with a flywheel that I turned myself; (so I know that it's concentric).

 

There is zero vibration; but I would agree that they are slower than Mashimas and, possibly, less powerful.

 

Nonetheless, they'll do what I need them to do, with the right High Level gearbox.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[bertiedog]

It all depends on the end use, there is no such thing as a universal motor. The small and very cheap MItsumi are pretty good, and can take a flywheel, but are mainly suited to small locos and lower speeds. If it is a HST, then it is going to need more power and at higher revs. Don't overlook the clones and originals fro Hornby and Bachmann designs, they are no quite good value.

 

All the coreless types tend to emphasis the high revs in the sales blurb, this is because of the light weight for the amount of power, when used for Drones, a huge market. Voltage ratings are pretty nominal, a shunter would never have 12 volts placed upon it, so a motor rated at 6 volts say, could still be used.

 

To test the motors you need a performance chart, and put the test figures on it, over a range of loads and voltage/current settings. A simple dynomometer can be made that the motor shaft is rested on a standard piece of grooved wood, and a swing arm is brought down to apply pressure in a known measurable way on to the motor shaft. Each motor to be tested is given the same range of voltage, but a series of  scale weights are added to the lever arm. The results will produce a chart with an obvious "sweet" area of low current and applied voltage for the expected power output.

 

Do not forget to lubricate all motors correctly, use a silicon oil with PTFE added or moly graphite oil. Check all the cheaper motors have straight shafts, one or two I had in bulk had problems, but it could be solved by careful bending back.

 

The danger ones are the Hong Kong versions of these motors, no brad or number, and sometimes colourful plastic ends, or simply they look like a posh toy motor.

 

The best to get are the Swiss makes like Maxon, but you are going to need a lathe to make convertors for shaft sizes. They are better suited to pulley and gear drives than worm drives. Often they have gearboxes attached but they are difficult to remove and then you have to make adaptors. But they are in the end the most efficient, and usually silent.

 

Simple drop in ones to replace Mashima are never going to be made till somebody simply gets an order together to give to the Chinese.....the lower base price should mean they cost less than Mashima, and the quality is what you prepared to pay. Quite frankly I always thought Mashima motors were a bit over priced.

 

Stephen

[DCB]

The problem seems to be more about fixings and the ability to cope with end thrust.  At least 60% of model railway motors have an end thrust component, some have provision for this built in as in Hornby Dublo motors, some have a bit of a bodge as in Triang X04 some can't cope at all with reversed thrust. In this case the alternative is a spur gear drive to a layshaft and that is noisy,

Hondas used a novel twin pinion arrangement on the CD175 with the pinions half a tooth out side by side which worked very well and might be worth trying on a model

.

Many of these coreless motors are high revving highly  efficient types whereas we need something robust and powerful down in the 3 volt range for smooth starts.   Its all a bit irrelevant worrying about performance if it has a life expectancy measured in seconds.

 

I would suggest looking at motors from computer disc drives, some are quite chunky, anything with a worm drive should be ok and working on the basis that the fixing hole pattern and front bearing spigot is the key criteria.   90% of applications don't have room for a motor clamp so the end plate mounting holes are the critical point.

 

I get good results from "12volt" computer motors but I use 3 and 12 volts, not the 21 volt resistance controllers or DCC decoders..   I suspect they would roll over and die at the first sign of 15volts +

[MGR Hooper!]

Andrew at Wizzard is selling Canon replacements for Mashimas. The small one I have seems fine.

 

Beware some of the eBay motors though as some are rated at less than 12v. There are lots of motors on EBay. A colleague has a few samples to be tested and I have some under order.

 

Baz

Any links to his website?

[Jol Wilkinson]

Quite frankly I always thought Mashima motors were a bit over priced.

 

Stephen

 

 

Disagree totally.

 

Mr Mashima produced a range of good quality motors that fitted most 4mm modellers requirements. They were probably produced in limited volumes compared to the likes of Mitsumi and Mabuchi, so consequently more expensive.

 

While various alternatives are being talked about, there are no or few alternative sizes. Canon (as sold by Wizard) only list a 1620 in 12volts, their smaller range rated at 5v. We are having to take the crumbs from the table of the suppliers manufacturing for the automotive, toy sectors (I include RTFdrones in that category), etc.. Until some specific motor sizes andspecifications are commissioned , we are where we are. At least on supplier is looking into this seriously, so their may be some light at end of the tunnel.

 

Any links to his website?

 Try a search for Wizard model railways.

Edited May 11, 2017 by Jol Wilkinson

[Barry O]

I can only find a Canon 1620 motor on the Wizard site, is that the one you have?

 

 

 

There are a number of motors being suggested as suitable replacements for Mashima, notably a Mitsumi  motor, selling for £1.00 - £7.00 depending on where you look. They are slightly larger than a Mashima 1224.

 

I bought a several of these to test and initial impressions are that they seem ok, starting (no load) at about the same voltage as a Mashima 1224 and drawing about twice the current (.4A) when stalled at 12V. The most obvious difference is noticeably more noise/vibration when running at higher speed, presumably as they are three pole, rather than the five pole of the Mashima. They have polarity marked connectors and one ran unevenly at low speed "in reverse", possibly due to brush contact problems. They have finger type brushes - presumably optimised for one direction of rotation, whereas the Mashimas have tubular brush holders so that direction of rotation is irrelevant.

Yep it's a 1620 replacement

[Brassey]

Yep it's a 1620 replacement

 

 

I can only find a Canon 1620 motor on the Wizard site, is that the one you have?

 

Jol

 

There were some at the York show and I nearly bought one.  Checking the specs elsewhere I think the dimensions are 14x16x20 which makes it a 1420 compared with a Mashima.  The hole spacings are 11mm which I think is non-standard (and why I guess Comet need a new gearbox for it).  IIRC High Level have 10mm and 8mm spacings.  These specs need to be confirmed

 

These motors should be ok for P4 as they might fit between the frames but are a bit big for most of my requirements.

 

Peter

[RAF96]

Just come across these on ebay:

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5-Pole-Rotor-Coreless-Motor-DC-12V-13000RPM-Strong-NdFeB-Magnetic-High-Quality-/282381613597?var=&hash=item41bf417a1d:m:mdrtk-PQNeCn5TQWO1IH3dA

 

Should be ok for 4mm scale but obviously not a reliable long-term replacement for Mashima. Probably worth a try for under a fiver with free postage.

 

David

 

You would need a good decoder if DCC as the quoted 12volt stall current is 1.4 A, although the running load was OK.