C&L to have new ownership

[hayfield]

I have had a chat with Phil this morning and he is doing his best to catch up on his backlog whilst satisfying his customers, one of the main issues was the IT problems he suffered where some of the order details were either missing or corrupted, the next issue is international postage and sending large (1m)  parcels, Phil now has solutions in hand

 

If you have a problem or want to place an order at the moment the best thing is to phone him (you never know you may be one of the customers he is trying to contact.

[kirtleypete]

That's all very well, but I had to transfer £500 into his account when I placed the order a month ago. If he then lost the order where does that leave me? I got the impression when I spoke to him on Saturday that he had forgotten all about it and I would never have got my items. 

 

Peter

[chris p bacon]

That's all very well, but I had to transfer £500 into his account when I placed the order a month ago. If he then lost the order where does that leave me? I got the impression when I spoke to him on Saturday that he had forgotten all about it and I would never have got my items. 

 

Peter

 

eerrrr   that's quite an allegation to make without providing some proof.   An 'impression' hasn't up to now been acceptable as that though.

[kirtleypete]

It is Dave, but I spoke to him and I know what was said. I'm not going to wash dirty linen in public, but I am becoming increasingly concerned. 

 

Peter

Edited December 7, 2017 by kirtleypete

[Siberian Snooper]

I hope this is not going to go down the same road as Coopercraft.

[colin penfold]

I made an order on 11th November. Having met the owner at Tolworth Show and been told to pay on order and not to wait for another email that's what I did. I Subsequently spoke to him on the phone and chased my order. I will be making another call tomorrow and ask for either my order or a refund within 7 days. A month to get items I was told were in stock is not good enough, plenty of small businesses and new businesses get it right.

[martin_wynne]

A month to get items I was told were in stock is not good enough, plenty of small businesses and new businesses get it right.

 

I suspect many of us have got conditioned by the Amazons of this world. The position of a one-man trader who also manufactures the product is very different. It's well over 30 years since I was in Phil's position supplying track parts to a (very) niche market, but I can fully sympathise with his position, and I doubt conditions have changed much.

 

So you have 17 of item X in stock and an intending customer who you have never dealt with before rings up and asks for 12 of X. Have you got them in stock? Yes, you say, send me a cheque.

 

5 minutes later the post arrives, and on opening it you find an order from a valued customer for 7 kits, each of which requires 2 of X to be included in it. Which will reduce your stock of X to 3, not the 12 you just promised. Now admittedly the first customer got in first, but the second one is spending far more money, and what's more he's a regular customer and wrote his cheque yesterday, and you actually have it in your hands. It's not his fault the post was late today.

 

Now if you are Amazon or a shopkeeper it's easy. You ring up your supplier and say I need another 200 of X a.s.a.p.

 

If you have to make them, it's not so easy. The machine which makes them is currently set up to make Y, and you are half way through a batch of 250. After that it needs to be changed to Z, because you are out of stock of those and have other customers waiting. It will be at least 3 weeks before you have any chance of making a fresh stock of X.

 

So you ring the first customer back to explain the situation and get an earful.

 

The only way to stay sane are the two golden rules -- never quote a delivery date and never cash a cheque until you have licked the stamps! I don't know how that translates to the modern online world. I know Amazon don't charge your card until the goods have been despatched.

 

Martin.

[Colin_McLeod]

I disagree. The first order should get either priority or an immediate refund.

[martin_wynne]

I disagree. The first order should get either priority or an immediate refund.

 

I agree, IF IF IF you have received and accepted payment.

 

As I said, you never do that until you have licked the stamps. Until then, the cheque in your hands with the earliest date gets priority.

 

Martin.

[Greenmodelmonkey]

Having seen the operation when it was in Bristol I don't envy the new owner. As far as I know the workforce has shrunk from a 4 person operation to 1 so this will have a significant impact on operation I'm sure. Good luck to the new owner hope it eventually comes together.

[MikeH_83]

Well I have put in my second order to get the last of the bits I need to start the layout..  I am not fussed if it takes a month or so as I can be getting on with other stuff to do with the trackwork.  However when that get's close to completion and if I havn't received my goods I will just make a polite call to see if there is an ETA.  Would it be nice to get them really quick.. sure,  Am I bothered by abit of a wait? Not so much.  But I can understand why some people are the opposite due to deadlines or an urgency to get on or one of many other reasons.  Now Phil doesn't have any more shows this year hopefully he can concentrate on trying to catch up a little..  I would hate to see him fail and I'm sure many of us would like to continue to see these products made and sold.

[Junctionmad]

I suspect many of us have got conditioned by the Amazons of this world. The position of a one-man trader who also manufactures the product is very different. It's well over 30 years since I was in Phil's position supplying track parts to a (very) niche market, but I can fully sympathise with his position, and I doubt conditions have changed much.

 

So you have 17 of item X in stock and an intending customer who you have never dealt with before rings up and asks for 12 of X. Have you got them in stock? Yes, you say, send me a cheque.

 

5 minutes later the post arrives, and on opening it you find an order from a valued customer for 7 kits, each of which requires 2 of X to be included in it. Which will reduce your stock of X to 3, not the 12 you just promised. Now admittedly the first customer got in first, but the second one is spending far more money, and what's more he's a regular customer and wrote his cheque yesterday, and you actually have it in your hands. It's not his fault the post was late today.

 

Now if you are Amazon or a shopkeeper it's easy. You ring up your supplier and say I need another 200 of X a.s.a.p.

 

If you have to make them, it's not so easy. The machine which makes them is currently set up to make Y, and you are half way through a batch of 250. After that it needs to be changed to Z, because you are out of stock of those and have other customers waiting. It will be at least 3 weeks before you have any chance of making a fresh stock of X.

 

So you ring the first customer back to explain the situation and get an earful.

 

The only way to stay sane are the two golden rules -- never quote a delivery date and never cash a cheque until you have licked the stamps! I don't know how that translates to the modern online world. I know Amazon don't charge your card until the goods have been despatched.

 

Martin.

Martin , this is antediluvian thinking

 

There is a simple way and that's to deploy suitable IT. IT acts as a multiplier , allowing one person to be far more productive

 

Real time stock , online payment processing There is no confusion over who gets the stock. The 2nd person sees no stock and can't order a non existent stock item

 

At this stage the finescale associations now need to move to secure independent supplies of critical components , thete is no way it's takes 6 months to bed this type of operation down

 

By the way loads of amazon businesses are one person operations.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Junctionmad

[colin penfold]

Having seen the operation when it was in Bristol I don't envy the new owner. As far as I know the workforce has shrunk from a 4 person operation to 1 so this will have a significant impact on operation I'm sure. Good luck to the new owner hope it eventually comes together.

Sorry to say anybody who buys a business requiring 4 FTE to run effectively and thinks they can do it on their own is misguided.

[martin_wynne]

There is a simple way and that's to deploy suitable IT. IT acts as a multiplier , allowing one person to be far more productive

 

Real time stock , online payment processing There is no confusion over who gets the stock. The 2nd person sees no stock and can't order a non existent stock item

 

That's fine for a retailer, but it doesn't work for a one-man manufacturer.

 

Very likely there is NO actual finished packed stock, or very limited quantities. If the same items go into several products, they are only packed as ordered. For example you can't say how many 1:6 crossings you have in stock, or how many kits containing them. If you receive an order for a dozen B-6 turnout kits, you pack them and 12 crossings go into them. If instead you receive an order for a dozen 1:6 crossings, you pack them separately and send them. There isn't a stock level for either crossings or kits that you can put in the IT system, unless you write a complicated bespoke system that knows how many of which components go into each order code. The same goes for the different sizes of switch blades, tie-bars, and all the other bits and pieces.

 

And you can't spend all day on the computer or on the phone, because the major part of your day is spent on the lathe, the milling machine, the fly-press.

 

The answer is simple. "Delivery will be when I've got some. Do not under any circumstances pay me any money until I tell you they are ready for despatch."

 

Martin.

[martin_wynne]

Sorry to say anybody who buys a business requiring 4 FTE to run effectively and thinks they can do it on their own is misguided.

 

It was clear from the old web site that after 12 months of trying there were no other buyers, and had Phil not agreed to take on the core track-components part of the business, it would have closed down.

 

Martin.

[Junctionmad]

That's fine for a retailer, but it doesn't work for a one-man manufacturer.

 

Very likely there is NO actual finished packed stock, or very limited quantities. If the same items go into several products, they are only packed as ordered. For example you can't say how many 1:6 crossings you have in stock, or how many kits containing them. If you receive an order for a dozen B-6 turnout kits, you pack them and 12 crossings go into them. If instead you receive an order for a dozen 1:6 crossings, you pack them separately and send them. There isn't a stock level for either crossings or kits that you can put in the IT system, unless you write a complicated bespoke system that knows how many of which components go into each order code. The same goes for the different sizes of switch blades, tie-bars, and all the other bits and pieces.

 

And you can't spend all day on the computer or on the phone, because the major part of your day is spent on the lathe, the milling machine, the fly-press.

 

The answer is simple. "Delivery will be when I've got some. Do not under any circumstances pay me any money until I tell you they are ready for despatch."

 

Martin.

I don't believe this is the business model , my understanding from previous conversations wth Pete was that while a few items were repackaged in house , the vast majority are made by sub contractors.

 

Its also the case that the stock range has reduced considerably with the sale of the Carr's range and discontinuing PECO etc

 

The fact is Martin if it Is as you say , the business will fold anyway because the chaos will overwhelm Phil.

[Junctionmad]

It was clear from the old web site that after 12 months of trying there were no other buyers, and had Phil not agreed to take on the core track-components part of the business, it would have closed down.

 

Martin.

I have only spoken to Pete Llewelyn , but I am prepared to accept his bone fides given he ran a business for several years and provided excellant service right up till the business sold , but he indicated that the issues around his health and the fact that the lease on the premises was up was forcing his hand. I did not see any indication it was some sort of lame duck business that you seem to imply. In reality it's very difficult to sell a retail business in such a specialised area.

 

I'm all in favour of giving Phil a chance etc but 6 months seems ridiculous and it's not like the situation is improving , in fact taking accounts here a face value , it's getting worse.

[martin_wynne]

In reality it's very difficult to sell a retail business in such a specialised area.

 

I don't believe it is a retail business. Retailers sell stuff that is also available from other retailers. C&L is primarily a manufacturer.

 

We have seen a few complaints here, but we don't hear from the majority. We don't know how many customers have been entirely happy with the service provided.

 

Martin.

[Junctionmad]

The answer is simple. "Delivery will be when I've got some. Do not under any circumstances pay me any money until I tell you they are ready for despatch."

 

 

The vast majority of c& l business in the area that was taken by Phil , is the simple supply of track components , this is an extremely simple supply chain model. You have X stock, you set up,an online shop with stock levels , you accept cleared orders with payment for on those stock levels and you package and ship same.

 

Nothing in C& Ls business model is " made to order " , that's an entirely different business model

 

The model you suggest , is time comsuming , requires multiple communications with a customer for a single sale , requires you to track back orders , fulfill partial orders etc.

 

That's not the way to run a one man business in the modern era. It simply isn't. Thousands of successful online business agree with me.

 

I say it again , you have X items of stock , packets of chairs , lengths of rail , Y number of 1:6 Vees , Z number of machined switch blades

 

You build an online shop ( cheap as chips these days ) you load it worth the current stock levels. You ONLY accept online precleared orders against that stock

 

Each morning you come in , you print a list of orders , you pick that stock and ship those orders. In the afternoon , youbattend to the business , and order new stock as required , after all you have a cash upfront business now . You need no communications with customers , you ship orders in days , you get good stock turn numbers.

 

That's the way it's done anything else will collapse in chaos or require more staff to sort

[Junctionmad]

I don't believe it is a retail business. Retailers sell stuff that is also available from other retailers. C&L is primarily a manufacturer.

 

We have seen a few complaints here, but we don't hear from the majority. We don't know how many customers have been entirely happy with the service provided.

 

Martin.

Martin, they don't draw their own rail , the chairs are subcontracted , as are the sleepers , the don't make much of anything , I think the only thing they were directly making was putting fasttrack bases onto nickel silver rail when they introduced completed assembled rail sections a few years ago.

 

The only unique component is the chairs , rail and sleepers are widely available , as are kit points.

The wheels are not even in this discussion as they are not being curently supplied

 

c&l in its current form as it was as it was in it's previous form was a simple retail business by and large

Edited December 8, 2017 by Junctionmad

[martin_wynne]

So who is degreasing the rail, assembling the crossings, machining the switch blades, printing the labels, writing the instructions, folding the templates, counting items into packets -- checking them for quality control as you go?

 

What is very clear from the web site is that Phil is completely out of his depth on IT. On the web site you get a shopping cart, a checkout, and all the rest. But no means of payment and seemingly Phil doesn't get all the information or even know who some of the orders are from.

 

If I was in his position I would dump the entire site. Replace it with a simple price list, and a printable order form. Print it out, fill it in, post it to him, either with a cheque or with details of your card number. With a clear note on the bottom that cheques will not be cashed or cards charged until goods are despatched.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[Junctionmad]

So who is degreasing the rail, assembling the crossings, machining the switch blades, printing the labels, writing the instructions, folding the templates, counting items into packets -- checking them for quality control as you go?

 

What is very clear from the web site is that Phil is completely out of his depth on IT. On the web site you get a shopping cart, a checkout, and all the rest. But no means of payment and seemingly Phil doesn't get all the information or even know who some of the orders are from.

 

If I was in his position I would dump the entire site. Replace it with a simple price list, and a printable order form. Print it out, fill it in, post it to him, either with a cheque or with details of your card number. With a clear note on the bottom that cheques will not be cashed or cards charged until goods are despatched.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

Martin , the vast majority is sourced from third parties , it may mean there is repacking etc , but it's not a manufacturing business

 

Cheques , printed prices lists , are you crazy , serously posting people an order , what's this, the 80s . Lol next you'll be suggesting an SAE .

 

The simple solution if one is IT illiterate is to pay someone to set it up once , properly , a student could manage it nicely , canned software is available of the shelf with links to worldpay or failing that PayPal , it may not be slick , but it will suffice and work

 

The key to a one man band is automation and precleared payments anything else is a receipe for chaos.

 

If the old c&L website is causing problems , I agree, dump it , get a simple canned solution , get it up and running fast and keep the stock levels accurate.

 

I've done it , many thousands are doing it as we speak, as are many cases in the RM field , even those that actually make things , take mousa models as an example . MERG runs in all online on a single volunteer basis and sells thousands of kits every year

Edited December 8, 2017 by Junctionmad

[martin_wynne]

Cheques , printed prices lists , are you crazy , seriously posting people an order , what's this, the 80s . Lol next you'll be suggesting an SAE .

 

Why not, if that is what works best for Phil? And if the stamp is not on square, it goes to the bottom of the pile.

 

C&L's main direct competitor is Marcway. Have a look at their web site: http://www.marcway.net/smp.php

 

Martin.

Edited December 8, 2017 by martin_wynne

[Vistisen]

Why not, if that is what works best for Phil? And if the stamp is not on square, it goes to the bottom of the pile.

 

C&L's main direct competitor is Marcway. Have a look at their web site: http://www.marcway.net/smp.php

 

Martin.

 

Any business that counts what is best for the business as more important than what is best for the customer WILL fail.

[kirtleypete]

Martin, the issue I have with what you say is that Phil insists on payment by bank transfer with the order.  

 

I am also running a one man model railway business, and I do at least answer my e-mails. 

 

Peter

Edited December 8, 2017 by kirtleypete