C&L to have new ownership

[hayfield]

Peter

 

Phil stepped in at the last minuet to keep the business going, he designed a system which he thought fitted the bill at the same time there were issues in transferring the website and email system plus he could not continue the postal method Peter used for large packages. As Martin said he is a one man business doing everything himself. Plus the existing stock he recieved was just mixed up and not labeled, it took him ages to sort out 

 

It is true that he subcontracts the manufacturer of components, but these have to be packed up in to retail size packages, and in the kit packs they have to be assembled. Knowing Phil as I do he is an honourable man learning a new set of skills whilst on the job and not in the position of being able to hire in staff of throw thousand of £'s at a website. To his credit he has put his hands up and admitted to making some mistakes, he is also trying to unravel the initial IT problems he had. He does not have a magic wand and is trying to work through the problematic orders, whilst at the same time processing new orders

 

All I can say again, he is a nice chap who is approachable and doing his best. Give him a call and calmly resolve the issue. 

[kirtleypete]

I spoke to him face to face, which is surely better than a phone call. I still haven't received the items, though. 

 

I'm not going to post again on this subject, I don't want it to turn into a witch hunt. 

 

Peter

[Bedders]

That's fine for a retailer, but it doesn't work for a one-man manufacturer.

 

Very likely there is NO actual finished packed stock, or very limited quantities. If the same items go into several products, they are only packed as ordered. For example you can't say how many 1:6 crossings you have in stock, or how many kits containing them. If you receive an order for a dozen B-6 turnout kits, you pack them and 12 crossings go into them. If instead you receive an order for a dozen 1:6 crossings, you pack them separately and send them. There isn't a stock level for either crossings or kits that you can put in the IT system, unless you write a complicated bespoke system that knows how many of which components go into each order code. The same goes for the different sizes of switch blades, tie-bars, and all the other bits and pieces.

 

And you can't spend all day on the computer or on the phone, because the major part of your day is spent on the lathe, the milling machine, the fly-press.

 

The answer is simple. "Delivery will be when I've got some. Do not under any circumstances pay me any money until I tell you they are ready for despatch."

 

Martin.

 

A couple of minutes on google found this: - https://apps.shopify.com/bundles or this: https://apps.oscommerce.com/BZ2FO

 

I'm sure there are others as it's quite a common situation.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Bedders

[martin_wynne]

I am also running a one man model railway business, and I do at least answer my e-mails.

 

Hi Peter,

 

That rather depends how many you get. What would you do if you had dozens every day and a backlog of 100 unanswered? And no time to spend on them because you have to get a dozen orders packed up and taken to the post office before they close?

 

I made Templot free for the simple reason that I couldn't cope with the volume of email from paying customers. A one-line email that took 1 minute to write can take 20 minutes to answer properly.

 

Martin.

[martin_wynne]

Any business that counts what is best for the business as more important than what is best for the customer WILL fail.

 

Not if they are the sole supplier of something that you need. In that circumstance the most important consideration is that they keep going -- which means they need a system which works best for them, not necessarily the most convenient for you.

 

Martin.

[royaloak]

The vast majority of c& l business in the area that was taken by Phil , is the simple supply of track components , this is an extremely simple supply chain model. You have X stock, you set up,an online shop with stock levels , you accept cleared orders with payment for on those stock levels and you package and ship same.

 

Nothing in C& Ls business model is " made to order " , that's an entirely different business model

 

The model you suggest , is time comsuming , requires multiple communications with a customer for a single sale , requires you to track back orders , fulfill partial orders etc.

 

That's not the way to run a one man business in the modern era. It simply isn't. Thousands of successful online business agree with me.

 

I say it again , you have X items of stock , packets of chairs , lengths of rail , Y number of 1:6 Vees , Z number of machined switch blades

 

You build an online shop ( cheap as chips these days ) you load it worth the current stock levels. You ONLY accept online precleared orders against that stock

 

Each morning you come in , you print a list of orders , you pick that stock and ship those orders. In the afternoon , youbattend to the business , and order new stock as required , after all you have a cash upfront business now . You need no communications with customers , you ship orders in days , you get good stock turn numbers.

 

That's the way it's done anything else will collapse in chaos or require more staff to sort

Its a pity you couldnt take the business on.

[royaloak]

I don't want it to turn into a witch hunt. 

I think its a bit late for that.

[PaulCheffus]

I disagree. The first order should get either priority or an immediate refund.

Hi

 

What happens if their cheque never arrives?

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[Greenmodelmonkey]

Sorry to say anybody who buys a business requiring 4 FTE to run effectively and thinks they can do it on their own is misguided.

Depends on how it realistically this part of the business was marketed to the prospective buyers in the first place. I'm sure the chap was not going to invest in something that would not work, unless as you say he was misguided in some way. I'm sure the investment was substantial so still feel he should be given the opportunity to get business in order which means a longer wait by the sound of it, as he is still a one man band and this was made clear to all at the time of sale. Im still hopeful, and we should be thankful, that someone has taken on the responsibility to carry the business onwards even if it does not satisfy everbodys near term needs.

[Colin_McLeod]

Hi

 

What happens if their cheque never arrives?

 

Cheers

 

Paul

I was under the impression that the customer had already paid. If the supplier is waiting for a cheque he should allow time for the cheque to arrive. If the supplier is not prepared to do that then he may as well put up a sign saying "No more customers. I have enough already"

[Greenmodelmonkey]

The vast majority of c& l business in the area that was taken by Phil , is the simple supply of track components , this is an extremely simple supply chain model. You have X stock, you set up,an online shop with stock levels , you accept cleared orders with payment for on those stock levels and you package and ship same.

Nothing in C& Ls business model is " made to order " , that's an entirely different business model

The model you suggest , is time comsuming , requires multiple communications with a customer for a single sale , requires you to track back orders , fulfill partial orders etc.

That's not the way to run a one man business in the modern era. It simply isn't. Thousands of successful online business agree with me.

I say it again , you have X items of stock , packets of chairs , lengths of rail , Y number of 1:6 Vees , Z number of machined switch blades

You build an online shop ( cheap as chips these days ) you load it worth the current stock levels. You ONLY accept online precleared orders against that stock

Each morning you come in , you print a list of orders , you pick that stock and ship those orders. In the afternoon , youbattend to the business , and order new stock as required , after all you have a cash upfront business now . You need no communications with customers , you ship orders in days , you get good stock turn numbers.

That's the way it's done anything else will collapse in chaos or require more staff to sort

So where do the parts come from in your simple supply chain as I think you might have missed this important part.

[chris p bacon]

A couple of minutes on google found this: - https://apps.shopify.com/bundles or this: https://apps.oscommerce.com/BZ2FO

 

I'm sure there are others as it's quite a common situation.

 

Just to make a comment on what people think is an easy plug in to websites.

Today I tried to order and purchase £1000+ worth of fire retardant board for a conversion we're working on.  So many suppliers are now online only and want you to order and pay at the same time which is fine, out of 3 suppliers 2 were showing stock which wasn't actually there and the third wouldn't accept payment as there is an issue with my postcode (there isn't, they acknowledge it's their system) it took just under 3 hours to make an order.

I've just got back and opened 3 emails which read.. 

1. my ordered is processed.

2. they don't have the stock.

3. It's being delivered next Wednesday.

 

These are companies with a lot of resource and they still f up.    So I'll give Phil a bit of time but he has to find a way to get on top of it soon.

Edited December 8, 2017 by chris p bacon

[blueeighties]

The vast majority of c& l business in the area that was taken by Phil , is the simple supply of track components , this is an extremely simple supply chain model. You have X stock, you set up,an online shop with stock levels , you accept cleared orders with payment for on those stock levels and you package and ship same.

Nothing in C& Ls business model is " made to order " , that's an entirely different business model

The model you suggest , is time comsuming , requires multiple communications with a customer for a single sale , requires you to track back orders , fulfill partial orders etc.

That's not the way to run a one man business in the modern era. It simply isn't. Thousands of successful online business agree with me.

I say it again , you have X items of stock , packets of chairs , lengths of rail , Y number of 1:6 Vees , Z number of machined switch blades

You build an online shop ( cheap as chips these days ) you load it worth the current stock levels. You ONLY accept online precleared orders against that stock

Each morning you come in , you print a list of orders , you pick that stock and ship those orders. In the afternoon , youbattend to the business , and order new stock as required , after all you have a cash upfront business now . You need no communications with customers , you ship orders in days , you get good stock turn numbers.

That's the way it's done anything else will collapse in chaos or require more staff to sort

Spoken by a true expert who has not an inkling of what is involved in the day to day running of a sole trader business.

[Ian J.]

I've been keeping up with this thread quietly, but thought I'd put a word in to support Phil. It's never easy starting any business, let alone one with an existing customer base that expects efficient service from the get go. Yes, the website probably needs sorting out, but even if getting the business stable takes years I'd rather Phil was given space to do it and we still have C&L components to work with, than he gives up due to customer vitriol and the products disappear never to return.

[hayfield]

Have spoken to Phil recently and I am certain he will be reassured by the recent comments of support and understanding, he is finding out the hard way on the job the difficulties of a one man band and doing his best to sort them out. As said in all businesses mistakes happen, plans have to be altered. No one wants the business to succeed more than Phil (his savings are invested in it) and needs it to. He will get there in the end, perhaps a bit slower than some expect or in many cases quicker than anticipated

 

He has a break for a month from shows, which will give him more time. And wisely shutting down for a few days extra for a well earned break to recharge his batteries. Also the Christmas post will not be helping at the moment ( I have not received something yet in the post which normally would have arrived by Wednesday). At least the range is still available

[polybear]

Perhaps one option would be to have an Ebay shop? No doubt there are downsides (such as fees), but positives would include:

1. No website needed, or perhaps a very basic one that acts as an advert and directs people to the ebay shop.

2. Stock control (e.g. 10 available displayed)

 - plenty more I'm sure, but it's early........

 

HTH

Brian

[Greenmodelmonkey]

Perhaps one option would be to have an Ebay shop? No doubt there are downsides (such as fees), but positives would include:

1. No website needed, or perhaps a very basic one that acts as an advert and directs people to the ebay shop.

2. Stock control (e.g. 10 available displayed)

 - plenty more I'm sure, but it's early........

 

HTH

Brian

Good suggestion, however there is an assumption there is stock to sell so running this size of business may not be just down to method of sale process and might be down to many other factors perhaps not related to sales process alone. Im sure and hope it will come good eventually, as you say it's still early days. I don't envy the chap as I have a bit of an idea as to how much money he probably had to sink into this venture.

[hayfield]

Good suggestion, however there is an assumption there is stock to sell so running this size of business may not be just down to method of sale process and might be down to many other factors perhaps not related to sales process alone. Im sure and hope it will come good eventually, as you say it's still early days. I don't envy the chap as I have a bit of an idea as to how much money he probably had to sink into this venture.

 

 

The last thing any trader wants is someone suggesting they have no stock. There has been comments on here and the C&L website that there are 2 storage units full of stock, plus regular updates stating which items that had been temporally out of stock are now back in stock, even when Peter ran the business at times there were stock items which went off sale

 

As you have said Phil will get it sorted out, most customers are receiving their orders with a few exceptions which in fullness of time will be resolved.

 

For the volumes Phil sells eBay is an expensive way of selling. He has a website and a phone which he answers

[Re6/6]

I reckon that we should give the guy a break. Bear in mind that he's a 'one man band' who has taken over this business. I once visited Arun House where Llewelwyn employed several people doing the ordering, assembling, bagging up etc..then there was the processing of a constant stream of orders from a vast and diverse stock of small parts. 

 

I'm sure that what we don't all want is for the business to falter through impatient expectations.

[Greenmodelmonkey]

The last thing any trader wants is someone suggesting they have no stock. There has been comments on here and the C&L website that there are 2 storage units full of stock, plus regular updates stating which items that had been temporally out of stock are now back in stock, even when Peter ran the business at times there were stock items which went off sale

 

As you have said Phil will get it sorted out, most customers are receiving their orders with a few exceptions which in fullness of time will be resolved.

 

For the volumes Phil sells eBay is an expensive way of selling. He has a website and a phone which he answers

Yes agreed out about stock levels and I was thinking more about getting stock into a ready to sell state which must be part of the process etc but i don't really know. My comment was aimed more at those that thought it was a simple process to set up a business and it not just about sales side.

 

Think your comment about '...few exceptions...' hit the 'nail on the head' rather well!!

[roythebus]

Having skim-read a lot of this, has anyone out there done a rough costing of running a business? A full time employee will cost around £18k a year, that's a 40 hour week, 52 weeks a year at minimum wage of say £8.70 an hour. There's employer's NI contributions, employer's statutory pension contributions, the annual price includes statutory holiday pay, so you effectively lose that employee for 5 weeks a year plus bank holidays, so you're only getting 46 weeks work out of that person. Time 4 employees, that's an additional half an employee to cover staff holidays. So £81k a year on basic staff costs alone without NI and pensions. If you include the business owner in that, it's another £18k...so well over £100k a year, or about £2k a week just to employ people. That is an awful lot of chairs and bits of rail to sell every week. If you reduce that to one employee, the owner, it boils down to a more affordable £400 a week, but still a lot of small product to sell.

 

Then there's the business van, tax, insurance, running costs, phone, office, lights, accounts, overheads...It's not cheap running a small business, I've been there and done it and lost money doing it.

[hayfield]

Having skim-read a lot of this, has anyone out there done a rough costing of running a business? A full time employee will cost around £18k a year, that's a 40 hour week, 52 weeks a year at minimum wage of say £8.70 an hour. There's employer's NI contributions, employer's statutory pension contributions, the annual price includes statutory holiday pay, so you effectively lose that employee for 5 weeks a year plus bank holidays, so you're only getting 46 weeks work out of that person. Time 4 employees, that's an additional half an employee to cover staff holidays. So £81k a year on basic staff costs alone without NI and pensions. If you include the business owner in that, it's another £18k...so well over £100k a year, or about £2k a week just to employ people. That is an awful lot of chairs and bits of rail to sell every week. If you reduce that to one employee, the owner, it boils down to a more affordable £400 a week, but still a lot of small product to sell.

 

Then there's the business van, tax, insurance, running costs, phone, office, lights, accounts, overheads...It's not cheap running a small business, I've been there and done it and lost money doing it.

 

You have really hit the nail on the head, plus if you employ staff you cannot run a business from home without planning consent. These were the financial problems the previous owner suffered, namely business rent and rates which were astronomical added to the ever increasing costs associated with employing staff.

 

You have either get yourself up and running with a large profitable cash flow quickly, or for the want of a better description "stay as a cottage industry"

 

Not relating to C&L one of the problems we as consumers now face is the costs businesses face, which are down to the change in business rates over the last 30 years and the cost of employing staff due to the regulations on employing workers now. Just look at the cost of labour if you have your car repaired, or work done on your house against what you paid 30 years ago.

 

Before anyone tries to make political capital out of this, I am not having a go at workers rights just saying there is a cost implication to everything. Example reduction in domestic rates equalled a big hike in business rates

[RBAGE]

Having skim-read a lot of this, has anyone out there done a rough costing of running a business? A full time employee will cost around £18k a year, that's a 40 hour week, 52 weeks a year at minimum wage of say £8.70 an hour. There's employer's NI contributions, employer's statutory pension contributions, the annual price includes statutory holiday pay, so you effectively lose that employee for 5 weeks a year plus bank holidays, so you're only getting 46 weeks work out of that person. Time 4 employees, that's an additional half an employee to cover staff holidays. So £81k a year on basic staff costs alone without NI and pensions. If you include the business owner in that, it's another £18k...so well over £100k a year, or about £2k a week just to employ people. That is an awful lot of chairs and bits of rail to sell every week. If you reduce that to one employee, the owner, it boils down to a more affordable £400 a week, but still a lot of small product to sell.

 

Then there's the business van, tax, insurance, running costs, phone, office, lights, accounts, overheads...It's not cheap running a small business, I've been there and done it and lost money doing it.

So how did Phil's predecessors manage?

It's changed hands a couple of times in the last decade. I'm sure that neither Phil nor Pete would have blindly invested in something that was bleeding money.

 

I've read the sorry tales in this thread and have been affected by the delays myself. I've been helped out by others on the thread and I'm very grateful.

However, the business was not open for business for some months following the sale in order to ensure this sort of thing did not happen.

The explanations we hear now are the same as in May and June, when I was affected. If things aren't resolved by now, I'm worried that they will never be resolved.

I met Phil at the show in Gaydon and have spoken to him a few times by telephone. He is genuinely a very nice bloke but he clearly needs some help.

 

It was mentioned a couple of post ago that he has no show commitments in the immediate future and is concentrating on dealing with the backlog of orders. Would it not have been more appropriate for Phil to have concentrated on those confirmed orders before now and not have committed to so many shows?

Maybe he should focus either on the mail order, or show sales, until it is operating reliably but not both.

 

I am sure that there will be responses reminding me that it's Phil's business and he can run it the way he want but the fact is, considering customer satisfaction, it's not working the way Phil or many other would like.

[hayfield]

So how did Phil's predecessors manage?

It's changed hands a couple of times in the last decade. I'm sure that neither Phil nor Pete would have blindly invested in something that was bleeding money.

 

I've read the sorry tales in this thread and have been affected by the delays myself. I've been helped out by others on the thread and I'm very grateful.

However, the business was not open for business for some months following the sale in order to ensure this sort of thing did not happen.

The explanations we hear now are the same as in May and June, when I was affected. If things aren't resolved by now, I'm worried that they will never be resolved.

I met Phil at the show in Gaydon and have spoken to him a few times by telephone. He is genuinely a very nice bloke but he clearly needs some help.

 

It was mentioned a couple of post ago that he has no show commitments in the immediate future and is concentrating on dealing with the backlog of orders. Would it not have been more appropriate for Phil to have concentrated on those confirmed orders before now and not have committed to so many shows?

Maybe he should focus either on the mail order, or show sales, until it is operating reliably but not both.

 

I am sure that there will be responses reminding me that it's Phil's business and he can run it the way he want but the fact is, considering customer satisfaction, it's not working the way Phil or many other would like.

 

 

I am sorry you feel this way but you are clearly unaware of the past history of C&L, K&L and Exactoscale

 

You are quite correct Phil is a nice bloke and as well as this he is the type of person who does not give up easily, which is good for us fellow modellers who want the ranges to continue. Please remember he put his cash up to keep the products available, something no one else would do.

 

The situation is nothing like it was in May and June, We all were warned well in advance that the business would be temporally closed during the hand over. If you failed to take notice its not their fault.

[roythebus]

Whilst business rates can be a huge cost for small businesses, there is currently small business rates relief which ok could be withdrawn at any time, but if a business occupies less than I think under 200 sq/m, it is exempt from paying business rates. Local authorities do not directly gain from this which is set and collected by central government.

 

It is quite permissable to use a room in your house for business purposes and not have to pay business rates on that room. If you have a large shed in the garden "for your hobby" then it's a shed for your hobby. Providing you haven't got 40 tonne lorries coming and going every day who is to know? We had 2 40'x40' sheds built in the garden to house our collection of vintage buses as part of "our hobby".

 

Maybe if any of us lives in the area where C&L is now based would like to offer to help on a voluntary basis that may be appreciated by the new owner?

 

I would add that I have been the owner of such a business in the past, I used to produce GS Models cast bus kits and the plastic VGA wagon so know exactly what is involved. The evening before my first son was born my wife and I were up until about 2 in the morning packing bus kits! Lots of people bravely decide to produce specific specialist items and none of these are cheap to set up, and for a very limited market have to cover their set up costs and overheads over very few units. My present "hobby" business is running vintage buses. these typically go out 15 times a year each bus, so have to cover their standing charges of annual insurance/road tax/MoT test fees and the like over 15 days which works out at about £300 per trip before we take into account driver and conductor wages and variable costs such as fuel. I mention this just to give those who don't have an idea of running a small business what is involved.

Edited December 12, 2017 by roythebus