Regional Terminus

[fegguk]

 

I would appreciate some comment on this design for a regional terminus. Two longer platform for long distance traffic with 2 small one for short local trains. Set in end of steam era. The idea for on platform with and one without a run round came for Bath Green Park. The 3rd road at the end is essentially a siding.

[forest2807]

I would replace the diamond crossing with a single slip (with the slip to the north side). Then you don't need the 2 points currently either side of the crossing.

[Satan's Goldfish]

Question; are the 2 lines approaching supposed to be a 2 track 'mainline' or 2 separate branch lines?

[Ray H]

Assuming the approach tracks are conventional double track, you have no direct access from the arrival line to the two short platforms.

[fegguk]

It's a double track approach. This may be an improvement

Edited March 7, 2017 by fegguk

[Flying Pig]

Based on your original plan, think I would do it as below, which avoids the double wiggle for trains running into the top platform. The reverse curve out of the main departure platform seems to be unavoidable but could be eased by using a long Y point at the platform end. Note that shunts between either of the main platforms and the middle roads can happen without blocking the other platform completely.

 

There's no access for trains to arrive directly into the middle roads, but I'm not sure why you would want that. It could be provided if absolutely necessary by changing the single slip into a double slip.

 

Bays without access for arriving trains seem to be a pretty common arrangement on the prototype so I've left them as they were.

 

Edit: very similar to your revised version; delayed waiting for a battery to charge before taking the photo!

 

[Joseph_Pestell]

Assuming the approach tracks are conventional double track, you have no direct access from the arrival line to the two short platforms.

 

I think that adds to the interest of the plan. Not an uncommon feature in real life.

[Grovenor]

I think that adds to the interest of the plan. Not an uncommon feature in real life.

Not if they are intended for short distance (suburban) trains as the OP stated, late steam era they could be steam worked, which needs provision for arrival and for an engine siding where the loco waits that is going to take the train out again, or dmu worked by which time the engine siding would be disused. Either way you don't want the suburban trains to have to arrive in the long distance platform then get shunted. Especially as those platforms will have longer occupation times while the longer distance trains are serviced etc.

Regards

[Joseph_Pestell]

Not if they are intended for short distance (suburban) trains as the OP stated, late steam era they could be steam worked, which needs provision for arrival and for an engine siding where the loco waits that is going to take the train out again, or dmu worked by which time the engine siding would be disused. Either way you don't want the suburban trains to have to arrive in the long distance platform then get shunted. Especially as those platforms will have longer occupation times while the longer distance trains are serviced etc.

Regards

Era does matter in this case. Back in the day, services were not so frequent and even quite a large town (Bath Queen Sq, Chester Northgate) could cope with just two platforms. So two platforms plus two departure-only bays is a perfectly realistic prospect. In the real world, the bays would mostly be used by parcels trains with passenger trains only in the rush hour.

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

I always suggest looking to the prototype - made up track plans tend to be problematic, it's far easier to let the Big Railway solve all the problems for you.

 

Here are a couple of examples with double track approaches.

 

 

 

New Brighton would be do-able in a reasonable length, and doesn't use any tricky track - it's all straight turnouts.  Very flexible layout to operate I would think.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Cheltenham St James' is an example of those stations that I mentioned earlier where trains can only arrive on two of the four platforms. (The OS seems to show a double slip at a location where there was in fact only a single slip for access into the goods yard.)

 

New Brighton, as a suburban station, had a more frequent service than is perhaps suggested by the OP. It is almost too easy to operate to make it much fun as a model railway layout.

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

The signalling diagram shows what a flexible little terminus Cheltenham was.

 

 

You could probably model this alone, and leave off the extensive freight facilities...

Edited March 8, 2017 by Dr Gerbil-Fritters

[BobM]

Another for the 'melting pot' from signalling park street rm blog....

Regards

Bob

[DCB]

The difference between Cheltenham St James and the OP is the OP has two short platforms and two long ones.  St James had slightly longer arrival platforms than departure but everything from Honeybourne Auto Trains to 8 coach or more London Expresses used these platforms.  

After 1957 it also had a quick turn round of Southampton trains allowed around an hour between arrival and departure including turning the loco.

This idea of short platforms at the country end of terminal stations, and short arrival bays for auto trains is largely a model feature, lets face it nobody in their right mind would expect passengers to walk an extra 400 yards along a platform from a bay compared to pulling up to the buffers near the concourse.

Kings Cross etc had short suburban platforms but this is due to the cramped site.

Post war Weymouth is a better example of short and long platforms, at some stage the present long "Island" platform principally for excursion traffic was added to a rather weird station of short awkward platforms which had evolved rather than been designed.   The present Weymouth had a short platform at the buffer stop end last time I was there, but the short platforms at the country end would usually be a result of a very constricted site.

Bath Green Park was mentioned.  Few trains terminated there, many came off the Somerset and Dorset had a fresh loco attached to the back and departed again towards Bristol or Birmingham.  An excellent terminus to model, and not unlike the OP if it lost those country end short bays.  To reiterate, lose the bays.

[DCB]

I have just been looking at the Loco Rosters for the Kingham branch out of Cheltenham St James in 1955.  Two 45XX locos operated the system but both were at St James at times, one arriving 5 minutes before the other departed.  Departure was typically an hour after arrival but trains were timed to suit travel needs rather than the 2017 situation of trains shuttling backwards and forwards as fast as the infrastructure will allow.   An hour to take water, run round, pull the coaches from the arrival platforms and push back into the departure platform.    Generally modellers would have the train arrive, loco run round and then depart from the arrival platform rather than having two almost identical trains in the same station together.

 

Andoversford a few miles East, double track dividing into 2 single track branches saw 14 trains each way. 6 Kingham locals, (2 x 45XX locos 3 times each)  3 Southampton passenger trains 43XX, U and Manor, 3 Southampton Goods, 43XX and U and a Kingham Goods with a 57XX , so you need 10 locos for a days service, and with 2 Eastleigh turns, 6 Cheltenham and 2 Swindon you might see 24 or more locos at Andoversford in a week, and this with the line in decline.

 

I fear too many modellers struggle to grasp that a 14XX and Auto trailer would arrive and leave from the same platform as a 8 coach London express, Ok at Cheltenham St James the 8 coach London Express might be taken to Gloucester by a 94XX pannier tank while in the last years of the MSWJR a Manor on a 3 coach train stopping at all stations might be at the opposite platform face to the 94XX on an Express both waiting to depart, and that is the same 94XX which hauled a single Autocoach on a local to Honeybourne later the same day.  

[Karhedron]

Bournemouth West sounds like it might be suitable. It is slightly larger than you have planned but a little pruning of the outer platform faces would give you something close.

 

[Flying Pig]

...To reiterate, lose the bays.

Or simply make them longer to produce a more balanced four platform station, which would be entirely equivalent to Cheltenham St James.

[DCB]

Bournemouth West without the carriage sidings is an excellent choice if you like SR and BR std locos. Or Pre war LMS and SR locos.

It was short in that I think the platforms only took 8 coaches though 10 coach trains were common.

 

In steam days it served  Somerset and Dorset trains from Bath and the terminating portions of Southern expresses including the Bournemouth Belle.  The tail of these trains usually ran to Weymouth.  Short (ish) trains big locos, 9Fs in 61/2/3,   The famous "Pines Express" started here, often 10 coaches with a std 5 which had to be flag signalled away as it was too tong for the platforms and the track circuits protecting the platform starter signal.   

[Nearholmer]

Worth considering that real two-track termini served a vast range of service intensities, and had a variety of track arrangements to suit.

 

There were those, frankly rather pointless, stations that arrived as "third company in town" and had barely any traffic, maybe one train every couple of hours in each direction, the midland station in Northampton was such a 'white elephant' ( six trains in each direction per DAY, on a two track line!), and at the other extreme very busy places like Ryde Pier Head, and even more so Baker Street (Met). The latter was actually half terminus, half through, but it handled a service of up to about twenty trains each hour, in each direction, and even after it was electrified about a third of those were loco hauled. Brixton on the Victoria Line manages 36 trains per hour in each direction using only two platform faces, but that is automated, and emus. About the best achievable with two platforms using emus manually driven is 24tph in each direction, as per elephant and castle and many others. The London railways got very close to this with steam at several places - 18-20tph on two platforms being achievable with steam and slam door stock, although 12tph would probably be a bit less mad.

 

Factor-in also the type of train. As above, urban and suburban trains don't hang about, but mainline ones certainly did. In some cases the whole, time consuming g taradiddle of unloading and loading the vans, cleaning the loos Nd refilling the tanks, replenishing the restaurant car etc took place at the platform, and even where some of that happened at carriage sidings, the embarking of passengers was a lie surely process, with tons of luggage, dogs, bicycles, and peerambulators. One train could hog a platform face for upwards of a hour!

 

I'm often surprised by how few trains some termini had, especially in those towns where there was more than one company in town, until Dr Beeching got wise to the problem.

 

Kevin

Edited March 9, 2017 by Nearholmer

[Karhedron]

Bournemouth West without the carriage sidings is an excellent choice if you like SR and BR std locos.

And GWR locos too. Halls and Granges were common on through trains from places like Wolverhampton. In the twilight years of the S&D, you also had classes like the 2251s working down.

 

[Joseph_Pestell]

I had not known that GW types got to Bournemouth. Very interesting.

[The Great Bear]

How about Swansea Victoria (LMS/LMR) - fits with Nearholmer's suggestion

 

 

 

For added interest you can have the elevated line to the docks that ran next door

 

A really good take based on this is this in Ian Rice's Designs for Urban Layouts, including engine shed and potential for continuous run on the elevated line in something moderate garden shed size, cannot recall off-hand.

[Karhedron]

I had not known that GW types got to Bournemouth. Very interesting.

Just came across another photo and remembered this thread. Wooton Hall at New Milton on its way to Bournemeouth in 1962.

 

https://railway-photography.smugmug.com/GWRSteam-1/Collett-Locomotives/Collett-460-designs/Collet-Hall-4900-Class-4900695/Collett-Halls-Pre-1968/49714981-Built-1930/i-VwZmdn5