A DCC Sound Newbie

[classy52]

Hi,

 

I now have a fully setup test track for both digital & analogue loco testing and got a cheap used GaugeMaster Prodigy Advance 2 on eBay, £160...not bad, like new and really like it.

I have started to run all my 13 sound loco's feeling like a kid in a candy shop thus have had a couple of nights of fun albeit on a test track and not on a proper layout but also learning how to use the Prodigy Advance...its quite addictive.

 

The one thing that has struck me with all this is the difference in quality from one sound loco to another depending where you have purchased them from, examples as follows;

1. Loco's too loud or not loud enough

2. The loco sound file quality or reproduction i.e. from one Class 37 to another

3. Speaker quality, this is a big issue for me atm especially when you look at the cost these items i.e. speaker crackle, hiss or static sounds for me are unacceptable especially on brand new expensive loco's

4. No issues with sound decoders, either Zimo or ESU fitted to all my loco's.

 

As of now the best sound loco's I have which are spot on are as follows;

1. ViTrains Class 47's DRS & Northern Belle Rail Exclusives, have all 5 of them and they are superb. Sound quality & reproduction off the Zimo 645R are sublime and the volume perfect, speaker quality very good...top marks.

2. Bachmann Class 66 EWS Energy & Dapol Class 68005 both with LegoBiffo sounds...awesome. Volume perfect & speakers very good...top marks

3. Hornby Colas 56094 with sound, pretty good from Hornby...well done but LegoBiffo may beg to differ lol

4. Bachmann Class 37 Lord Hinton with sound. Not bad from Bachmann but volume a little too low...no cigar

5. I have another Class 37 just purchased and the sound reproduction is spot on but the speaker is knackered...crackle, hiss and static all over the place but dealing with retailer to have it replaced.

 

Now for the worst;

1. Olivia's Trains sound fitted Class 37 37402. Extremely loud and tinny bordering on unbearable when you crank up the loco thus really need this to be re-blown and speaker re-fitted.

2. Olivia's Trains sound fitted Class 67. Ok got this cheap on eBay but again too loud but speaker is fine and not tinny like the DRS 37...acceptable and like it but need to reduce the volume.

3. Olivia's Trains re-blown sound fitted Class 66 32-728DS. Ok again got this cheap on eBay but comes nowhere near my Biffo EWS Class 66...re-blow needed.

 

So yes the sound quality and reproductions vary wildly depending where you get your sound loco's from which for me is now a learning experience but personally feel for the price being charged the quality needs to improve from everyone or am I being too picky???

I would like to say LegoBiffo is pretty much leading the pack to what I have and seen and heard within the railway modeling community and Charlie will more than likely get more of my business in the future when I purchase more sound loco's or seek those retailers who use his sound projects.

 

 

Anyway, how easy is it to change the sound volumes on decoders as I wouldn't mind trying this using my Prodigy Advance, understand it is via CV's but I was looking at getting the USB Cable for the Prodigy to connect to my PC and use the computer interface to play around, has anyone used this USB interface and if so is it of any value???

I wouldn't mind getting anybody's views on this or any advice would be great, especially on how to increase or decrease the sound volumes on these decoders which are all from ZIMO or ESU from what I can gather from the associated documentation for each loco.

 

Cheers

 

Steve

 

[Nick G]

Sound volume is CV63 BUT depends on the decoder version.  V3.5 volume is 0-64 and a V4 decoder volume is 0-192.

 

Speakers can be improved by making sure they are sealed and airtight in the enclosure. I use PVA for this.

[classy52]

Sound volume is CV63 BUT depends on the decoder version.  V3.5 volume is 0-64 and a V4 decoder volume is 0-192.

 

Speakers can be improved by making sure they are sealed and airtight in the enclosure. I use PVA for this.

 

Excellent thanks for the advice.

[pauliebanger]

Sound volume is CV63 BUT depends on the decoder version.  V3.5 volume is 0-64 and a V4 decoder volume is 0-192.

 

Speakers can be improved by making sure they are sealed and airtight in the enclosure. I use PVA for this.

 

Not with ZIMO decoders it isn't.

 

ZIMO overall sound is CV266

 

Paul

[pauliebanger]

Hi,

 

I now have a fully setup test track for both digital & analogue loco testing and got a cheap used GaugeMaster Prodigy Advance 2 on eBay, £160...not bad, like new and really like it.

I have started to run all my 13 sound loco's feeling like a kid in a candy shop thus have had a couple of nights of fun albeit on a test track and not on a proper layout but also learning how to use the Prodigy Advance...its quite addictive.

 

The one thing that has struck me with all this is the difference in quality from one sound loco to another depending where you have purchased them from, examples as follows;

1. Loco's too loud or not loud enough

2. The loco sound file quality or reproduction i.e. from one Class 37 to another

3. Speaker quality, this is a big issue for me atm especially when you look at the cost these items i.e. speaker crackle, hiss or static sounds for me are unacceptable especially on brand new expensive loco's

4. No issues with sound decoders, either Zimo or ESU fitted to all my loco's.

 

As of now the best sound loco's I have which are spot on are as follows;

1. ViTrains Class 47's DRS & Northern Belle Rail Exclusives, have all 5 of them and they are superb. Sound quality & reproduction off the Zimo 645R are sublime and the volume perfect, speaker quality very good...top marks.

2. Bachmann Class 66 EWS Energy & Dapol Class 68005 both with LegoBiffo sounds...awesome. Volume perfect & speakers very good...top marks

3. Hornby Colas 56094 with sound, pretty good from Hornby...well done but LegoBiffo may beg to differ lol

4. Bachmann Class 37 Lord Hinton with sound. Not bad from Bachmann but volume a little too low...no cigar

5. I have another Class 37 just purchased and the sound reproduction is spot on but the speaker is knackered...crackle, hiss and static all over the place but dealing with retailer to have it replaced.

 

Now for the worst;

1. Olivia's Trains sound fitted Class 37 37402. Extremely loud and tinny bordering on unbearable when you crank up the loco thus really need this to be re-blown and speaker re-fitted.

2. Olivia's Trains sound fitted Class 67. Ok got this cheap on eBay but again too loud but speaker is fine and not tinny like the DRS 37...acceptable and like it but need to reduce the volume.

3. Olivia's Trains re-blown sound fitted Class 66 32-728DS. Ok again got this cheap on eBay but comes nowhere near my Biffo EWS Class 66...re-blow needed.

 

 

So yes the sound quality and reproductions vary wildly depending where you get your sound loco's from which for me is now a learning experience but personally feel for the price being charged the quality needs to improve from everyone or am I being too picky???

I would like to say LegoBiffo is pretty much leading the pack to what I have and seen and heard within the railway modeling community and Charlie will more than likely get more of my business in the future when I purchase more sound loco's or seek those retailers who use his sound projects.

 

 

Anyway, how easy is it to change the sound volumes on decoders as I wouldn't mind trying this using my Prodigy Advance, understand it is via CV's but I was looking at getting the USB Cable for the Prodigy to connect to my PC and use the computer interface to play around, has anyone used this USB interface and if so is it of any value???

I wouldn't mind getting anybody's views on this or any advice would be great, especially on how to increase or decrease the sound volumes on these decoders which are all from ZIMO or ESU from what I can gather from the associated documentation for each loco.

 

 

Cheers

 

Steve

 

Steve,

 

Glad to hear that the RE ViTrains locos meet with your approval. Sublime and perfect in the same sentence. Hard to beat comments like that, thank you.

 

Your Class 47 overall sound volume can be changed with CV266 if you wish, but these custom ZIMO sound projects have live volume control on F27 (reduce volume) and F28(raise volume). See the Functions List in the User Notes.

 

Each individual sound can also be raised or lowered in relation to the others so you can achieve the balance of sounds which suits your needs. There are sevreal mthods which you can use to do this, but the simplest way is to use the volume CV assigned to each F key. It does not matter what the sound is, if you know the number of the F key.

 

Kind regards,

 

Paul

[classy52]

Steve,

 

Glad to hear that the RE ViTrains locos meet with your approval. Sublime and perfect in the same sentence. Hard to beat comments like that, thank you.

 

Your Class 47 overall sound volume can be changed with CV266 if you wish, but these custom ZIMO sound projects have live volume control on F27 (reduce volume) and F28(raise volume). See the Functions List in the User Notes.

 

Each individual sound can also be raised or lowered in relation to the others so you can achieve the balance of sounds which suits your needs. There are sevreal mthods which you can use to do this, but the simplest way is to use the volume CV assigned to each F key. It does not matter what the sound is, if you know the number of the F key.

 

Kind regards,

 

Paul

 

Hi Paul,

 

I assume you have something to do with RE???

Honestly I do love my ViTrains exclusives and apart from the Zimo sound the loco's to me are very underrated limited editions based on their quality and finish which is hard to fault and a pity ViTrains don't re-enter the UK market and start producing bang up to date 37's & 47's to give Bachmann a run for their money...but yes they would have to limit the amount of detailing required which they did on the RE's.

 

Anyway, thanks for the info on the Zimo but must say I did try the live volume control using F27 & F28 but I think on using F28 it went out of control and max'ed out with a loud crackling sound at the end which at that point I thought I had blown the decoder or speaker as I couldn't get the sound back, this was on 47810 Peter Bath. For some reason when I pressed F28 the sound quickly went progressively louder but I couldn't control it but the next day played with it again using F27 also and suddenly it all came back which thankfully it did but I am very reluctant to use it again unless I am doing something wrong???

 

Cheers

Steve

[pauliebanger]

Hi Paul,

 

I assume you have something to do with RE???

Honestly I do love my ViTrains exclusives and apart from the Zimo sound the loco's to me are very underrated limited editions based on their quality and finish which is hard to fault and a pity ViTrains don't re-enter the UK market and start producing bang up to date 37's & 47's to give Bachmann a run for their money...but yes they would have to limit the amount of detailing required which they did on the RE's.

 

Anyway, thanks for the info on the Zimo but must say I did try the live volume control using F27 & F28 but I think on using F28 it went out of control and max'ed out with a loud crackling sound at the end which at that point I thought I had blown the decoder or speaker as I couldn't get the sound back, this was on 47810 Peter Bath. For some reason when I pressed F28 the sound quickly went progressively louder but I couldn't control it but the next day played with it again using F27 also and suddenly it all came back which thankfully it did but I am very reluctant to use it again unless I am doing something wrong???

 

Cheers

Steve

 

Steve,

 

I'm not directly connected with RE, but I created the sound projects for RE's Class 47s, amongst others. May not be your period, but check out the SLW Class 24 from the same stable - there's a long thread on here.

 

F27 and F28 work like this. Press one or other of the keys and the sound volume moves in the appropriate direction. When you are satisfied with the result, you must then cancel the function by pressing the F key again. If not, the sound will either continue to ramp up to maximum or down to zero volume. That's one of the drawbacks of DCC systems which do not allow you to select 'momentary' or 'latching' action on the F keys, resulting in multiple key presses. (Most US designed systems are like this).

 

The exception for most systems is F2 which can usually be set to Momentary (push to start, release to stop) and is why the Working Brake key in these projects (and all my ProtoDrive projects for ZIMO) is on F2.

 

As well as producing a brake application sound, this feature also actually slows or stops the model, depending upon the duration that the Brake Key is held 'on', like a real loco. (remember to reduce speed steps before applying brakes).

 

Kind regards,

 

Paul

Edited March 17, 2017 by pauliebanger

[classy52]

Steve,

 

I'm not directly connected with RE, but I created the sound projects for RE's Class 47s, amongst others. May not be your period, but check out the SLW Class 24 from the same stable - there's a long thread on here.

 

F27 and F28 work like this. Press one or other of the keys and the sound volume moves in the appropriate direction. When you are satisfied with the result, you must then cancel the function by pressing the F key again. If not, the sound will either continue to ramp up to maximum or down to zero volume. That's one of the drawbacks of DCC systems which do not allow you to select 'momentary' or 'latching' action on the F keys, resulting in multiple key presses. (Most US designed systems are like this).

 

The exception for most systems is F2 which can usually be set to Momentary (push to start, release to stop) and is why the Working Brake key in these projects (and all my ProtoDrive projects for ZIMO) is on F2.

 

As well as producing a brake application sound, this feature also actually slows or stops the model, depending upon the duration that the Brake Key is held 'on', like a real loco. (remember to reduce speed steps before applying brakes).

 

Kind regards,

 

Paul

 

Lol that explains why when I pressed F28 the sound kept increasing until it hits its peak & stopped scaring the crap out of me.

Really appreciate your advice and information which has really helped, I can see why a lot of diehards are cautious to convert from DC to DCC.

Yes I had previously checked out the Class 24 and was really impressed but unfortunately not my era as I will model from 2014 onwards, shame RE haven't done anything major since the ViTrains release and like I said your sound project for those DRS 47's put a major smile on my face, they were the first sound loco's I fired up on DCC thus a lasting impression and items I will keep for good.

[legomanbiffo]

Steve,

 

Many thanks for the thumbs up, it's much appreciated. It's no coincidence that the sounds produced by two parties who are both keen modellers and passionate about sound (Paul and I) make special mention on your list. We are both doing our best to push up standards across the board. It's a slow process when commercial considerations come into play, but as the Dapol 68 and SLW 24 have demonstrated, progress is being made.

 

Bif

[classy52]

Steve,

 

Many thanks for the thumbs up, it's much appreciated. It's no coincidence that the sounds produced by two parties who are both keen modellers and passionate about sound (Paul and I) make special mention on your list. We are both doing our best to push up standards across the board. It's a slow process when commercial considerations come into play, but as the Dapol 68 and SLW 24 have demonstrated, progress is being made.

 

Bif

 

Yep totally agree and being relatively new to model railways I appreciate the quality in the build & sound of the loco's I purchase and perhaps a bit harsh in my assessments when I run them but like you said it is no coincidence that my best sounding loco's are from yours & Paul's sound projects and too be honest I prefer to stick with stuff that is consistently high in quality but not remaining static or resting on its laurels and you have proven to be always moving forward in sound development which is great to see.

I am starting to identify the cowboys and the professionals and like I mentioned already still learning and finding my feet within this great but very expensive hobby hence I set the standard bar pretty high or beginning to do so.

So when I'm brave enough to open up my loco's and take out the decoder then I'll send these to you for a re-blow as I currently have 2 Class 37's & a Class 66 that really don't cut it against your 66 & 68. I'm going to Ally Pally next week so will pop by your stand and say hello and just sit there and admire your sound locos like I have done in previous years like the sad git I am.

 

Cheers

Steve

Edited March 17, 2017 by classy52

[SRman]

Just my opinion, but I agree some of the best sounds are from Bif (ESU LokSound) and Paul (Zimo). I have experienced only one sound loco from Olivias, a class 50, and was equally disappointed in it.

One other contender for good sounds, though, is Howes; I still have several of their sound projects in use and am still happy with them, although a couple may have been eclipsed by Bif's and Paul's efforts.

With many of the factory sound installations, I have sealed the speakers or even replaced them, often with twin speaker setups if there was room. It is often the speakers that let down otherwise quite decent sound locos from the factory, but some were also let down by poor controllability - I found that was the case with many of South West Digital's earlier efforts, where sounds were great but they were unresponsive, or at least very slow to respond, to changes in the throttle.

Edited March 18, 2017 by SRman

[Albie the plumber]

Just my opinion, but I agree some of the best sounds are from Bif (ESU LokSound) and Paul (Zimo). I have experienced only one sound loco from Olivias, a class 50, and was equally disappointed in it.

 

One other contender for good sounds, though, is Howes; I still have several of their sound projects in use and am still happy with them, although a couple may have been eclipsed by Bif's and Paul's efforts.

 

With many of the factory sound installations, I have sealed the speakers or even replaced them, often with twin speaker setups if there was room. It is often the speakers that let down otherwise quite decent sound locos from the factory, but some were also let down by poor controllability - I found that was the case with many of South West Digital's earlier efforts, where sounds were great but they were unresponsive, or at least very slow to respond, to changes in the throttle.

 

Its not that Olivias sounds are bad , many of them sound quite good, to my ear at least .

Their real Achilles heel in my opinion is their sound to movement relationship which could be described as 'loose'

It needs someone to exploit the potential of the V4 in the way someone like Bif or Jamie Goodman has done .

Paul Chetter has also produced the goods with Zimo .

So put simply , some sound projects which were ok for their time, have been left behind because nobody has

attempted to improve them .  

Edited March 18, 2017 by Albie the plumber

[pauliebanger]

Lol that explains why when I pressed F28 the sound kept increasing until it hits its peak & stopped scaring the crap out of me.

 

Steve,

 

You can avoid the sound volume going too high when using F28 by setting your own 'Maximum Volume' with the value in CV395. Try setting this to something around 100.

 

Kind regards,

 

Paul

[classy52]

Steve,

 

You can avoid the sound volume going too high when using F28 by setting your own 'Maximum Volume' with the value in CV395. Try setting this to something around 100.

 

Kind regards,

 

Paul

 

Paul,

 

Have to say the sound level for my RE's are just the right level out of the box hence why I earlier said they brought a huge smile to my face, I only played with the F27/F28 keys out of curiosity on 47810 which in hindsight and my reaction to the increasing volume makes me laugh as I sort of panicked thinking I blew something.

Everything is back to normal, anyway thanks for the info on CV395 and may try it out due to my inability not to tinker lol...

 

Btw Paul will you be at Ally Pally next week or do you have a stand at exhibitions?

 

Cheers

Steve

[pauliebanger]

Paul,

 

Have to say the sound level for my RE's are just the right level out of the box hence why I earlier said they brought a huge smile to my face, I only played with the F27/F28 keys out of curiosity on 47810 which in hindsight and my reaction to the increasing volume makes me laugh as I sort of panicked thinking I blew something.

Everything is back to normal, anyway thanks for the info on CV395 and may try it out due to my inability not to tinker lol...

 

Btw Paul will you be at Ally Pally next week or do you have a stand at exhibitions?

 

Cheers

Steve

 

Hi Steve,

 

Yes, I noted that from your original posting, but I thought you and others might like to know how it works and how to set the upper limit.

 

As Bif mentioned earlier, some of us try that little bit extra for great sound (with realistic balance between sounds) and prototypical relationships between movement and sound. This latter is probably the single most important improvement in recent years.

 

The 68 and 24 are the product of each of us (Bif and I respectively) having access to the target model during the development phase, which means that all the variables (which decoder, which speaker, what functions will be available and so on) are 'settled' before the sound project is finalised. This knowledge and development time gives the greatest chance that the custom sound project for that model will be as close to optimal as it is possible to achieve with the current hardware and software.

 

I will not be at Ally Pally this year, though Digitrains, who supply my projects loaded to ZIMO decoders, will be attending as usual.

 

Kind regards,

 

Paul

[classy52]

Like to say a big thanks to Biff for re-blowing my loco's on Saturday at Ally Pally, what a world of difference he has made to my DRS 37402 & 37409, Colas 56094 & Royal 67005.

Fully tested and obviously all working perfectly...Biff, Charlie are the best sound guys in the business as well as Paul Chetter.

 

Many Thanks.

[Revolution Mike B]

Like to say a big thanks to Biff for re-blowing my loco's on Saturday at Ally Pally, what a world of difference he has made to my DRS 37402 & 37409, Colas 56094 & Royal 67005.

Fully tested and obviously all working perfectly...Biff, Charlie are the best sound guys in the business as well as Paul Chetter.

 

Many Thanks.

 

Bif's 37/4s are awesome.....even better with an EM2 on board!

 

I've got an Oliva's Super Voyager with 2 chips and 4 speakers.....every time I ran it, the neighbours from the next street came round and complained that I was driving their dog up the wall!    Upon further inspection, the speakers were held in with blacktack and had no enclosures at all!

 

I've got a few sound projects from various different people and they all differ......the difference I've found is the back up service....which from Bif is exceptional. 

[classy52]

Bif's 37/4s are awesome.....even better with an EM2 on board!

 

I've got an Oliva's Super Voyager with 2 chips and 4 speakers.....every time I ran it, the neighbours from the next street came round and complained that I was driving their dog up the wall!    Upon further inspection, the speakers were held in with blacktack and had no enclosures at all!

 

I've got a few sound projects from various different people and they all differ......the difference I've found is the back up service....which from Bif is exceptional. 

 

Just had a look at your post fitting an EM2 to a 37, my goodness you guys are hardcore   ...but love it

[classy52]

Just got some further questions on the EM2 speakers as follows;

 

Are they restricted to use with ESU Loksound v4's only or can they be paired up with other compatible sound decoders such as Zimo?

Does it matter who's sound project is on the sound chip when an EM2 is fitted?

Is an EM2 suited to all diesel sound projects or just the Class 37 and Class 68 which I have seen & heard so far?

Have read that a Class 66 doesn't sound good with an EM2?

 

Very much appreciate anyone's feedback to which sound chips/sound projects EM2's can be used with successfully and productively.

Cheers.

Steve

[legomanbiffo]

Steve,

 

The EM2 can be used in any application where a 4 ohm speaker is called for, including chips from manufacturers other than ESU. In the vast majority of cases the EM2, by virtue of its extended bass response, will greatly improve the sound from any sound chip. However, we've found that the results from the Hymek and 66 are not pleasing so in those cases we recommend other alternatives. We have used EM2's to great effect in 24, 25, 26, 27, 33, 37, 40, 45, 47, 55, HST, & 91 so far.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Bif

[Albie the plumber]

Steve,

 

The EM2 can be used in any application where a 4 ohm speaker is called for, including chips from manufacturers other than ESU. In the vast majority of cases the EM2, by virtue of its extended bass response, will greatly improve the sound from any sound chip. However, we've found that the results from the Hymek and 66 are not pleasing so in those cases we recommend other alternatives. We have used EM2's to great effect in 24, 25, 26, 27, 33, 37, 40, 45, 47, 55, HST, & 91 so far.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Bif

 

Hi Bif

 

Glad you mentioned the Hymek as it was on my EM2 to do list .

If space wasn't an issue , what speaker or speaker combination would you use ?

 

Alberto

[classy52]

Steve,

 

The EM2 can be used in any application where a 4 ohm speaker is called for, including chips from manufacturers other than ESU. In the vast majority of cases the EM2, by virtue of its extended bass response, will greatly improve the sound from any sound chip. However, we've found that the results from the Hymek and 66 are not pleasing so in those cases we recommend other alternatives. We have used EM2's to great effect in 24, 25, 26, 27, 33, 37, 40, 45, 47, 55, HST, & 91 so far.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Bif

 

Thanks Bif, just worked out I will need about 11 EM2's to replace my existing speakers and loads of spare time...looking forward to it

Also noticed the Class 56 isn't mentioned, any particular reason for this?

 

Cheers

[charliepetty]

Thanks Bif, just worked out I will need about 11 EM2's to replace my existing speakers and loads of spare time...looking forward to it

Also noticed the Class 56 isn't mentioned, any particular reason for this?

 

Cheers

 

We have not done one yet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   Charlie

[classy52]

We have not done one yet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   Charlie

 

We wait with, 'like a kid in a candy store', anticipation

[dasatcopthorne]

We wait with, 'like a kid in a candy store', anticipation

 Steve.

 

Have you considered joining a local Club to get help and inside into DCC / Sound. You'll find members there that have already been through what you are going through now.

 

I understand Wimbledon has a circular test track with DCC and a few members using DCC. http://www.wimbledonmrc.org

 

Carshalton & Sutton also has a circular test track with DCC as well as a Modern Image DCC layout.  www.csmrc.co.uk

 

Dave