Car trains - potential for achieving greater realism

['CHARD]

Oxford's Carflats are expected later this year, and Bachmann has announced its intention to produce them as well.  Back in the day we had Triang Tierwags and their Cartic-2, whilst the later toylike Hornby Carflat is perhaps best forgotten.  It looks like we may be entering a modelling 'golden age' for recreating car trains.  My intention with this topic is to attempt to explore methods and techniques that might be applied in future, using the available RTR 'vehicles' principally, to achieve greater realism, and decent running characteristics.

 

I'll set out my stall at this point.  My interest is in modelling the Waverley route in its twilight years.  Car traffic from Merseyside to East Lothian was a prodigious user of the line, with observers' anecdotes recalling rakes in excess of twenty flats, which would itself represent a payload of 80 motor cars.  The new cars being conveyed, and therefore in my sights, were Ford or Vauxhall products from Halewood or Ellesmere Port.  The back-workings of the flats would sometimes be as empties, or carrying products from the BLMC truck plant at Bathgate, usually chassis or plain 'stock' commercial vehicles.

 

This set of requirements creates three modelling parameters and a fourth operating question for me:

1. unladen rake of empties - how to 'dress' the wagons appropriately and convincingly - weathering, positioning of loose wheel-chocks etc
2. laden with late sixties Fords/ Vauxhalls whilst keeping the consist within the weight a Bachmann 45 can handle 
3. laden with late sixties BLMC commercial vehicles/ chassis 
4. how to handle the logistics of running some stock laden and unladen, covering each above scenario, with the minimum number of wagons

Operationally, I have considered a maximum set length of 10 or 12 flats (Ford) or 8 (Vauxhall).  The short set could work the southbound Bathgate train.  But the long Ford set would still have to return as empties (unless the return is timed to run in the early hours, and simply not modelled).

 

For my Ford set, I am proposing a payload of Minix Anglias and Corsairs with some cosmetic work; Vauxhalls will be Minix Viva HAs and Victor FCs.  The reason for this is weight, and because I find that the crucially most numerous vehicle, the Anglia, is better served in model form by the plastic Minix than (to my eyes) the oddly-proportioned die cast alternatives.  This can also be said of the Viva, whilst there's no choice of ready to roll versions of the larger saloons apart from Minix.

 

I have researched the appropriate paint colours offered for the real cars and recognise that some respraying will be needed to achieve the relatively bland actual situation.  I would contend, however, that an Oxford Anglia or Corgi Viva needs toning down and having its stance altered anyway, and these cars are far harder to open and repaint.

 

While recognizing that I'm possibly the only person contemplating this challenge, it would nonetheless be very interesting to read others' thoughts.  Apologies if it's been a bit of a rambling OP, but I've been sleep-deprived for a few days 

Edited March 24, 2017 by 'CHARD

[colin penfold]

Hi Chard, very interesting post and I will follow with interest.

 

Just to add to your musings, I believe that new cars left the factory with a fair bit of "protection" attached which remained in place until removed by the dealership as part of the Pre Delivery Inspection. I suspect the railway also took action to protect the vehicles from railway related hazards.

 

For the former, photos of cars leaving the factory may be useful.

 

A quick google revealed a modern example of what I mean and an older photo suggesting that they may not have bothered at all!

 

 

[Talltim]

I saw a car being delivered this week that had a full cover over all of it, including a clear panel over the windscreen and covers over the wheel centres. Even had zipped sections for the drivers door and petrol cap.

[Enterprisingwestern]

You are obviously aware of the other carflat threads, having posted on them yourself, and have seen what the rest of us are doing, so you are up to speed with he hardware side of things, but what exactly are you, in your sleep derived state, asking us now exactly?

 

Mike.

['CHARD]

You are obviously aware of the other carflat threads, having posted on them yourself, and have seen what the rest of us are doing, so you are up to speed with he hardware side of things, but what exactly are you, in your sleep derived state, asking us now exactly?

 

Mike.

 

LOL - you're spot on about the sleep derived state, and I may ask to have this merged in with one of the others!  

 

The core of what I'm looking for really centres on how people intend to manage their miniature operation and on the wagon loads themselves.  I will happily renumber the RTR wagons, their production has solved a massive part of the need, but how to get cars that are equally convincing, and is anyone else planning to run company block trains - if so, what are your plans to fill the trains?  This is going to take a fair amount of space, and handling dozens of cars.

 

Is anyone planning a loading terminal?  I'd love to model Sutton Coldfield circa 1968, as I remember it - it just so happens to be my local station.  The 'play value' of brumming cars up a ramp feels like a guilty pleasure for a bloke aged 17, though, let alone 17(x3)!  Is there much of an appetite for a loading yard as a generally static cameo?  I'm thinking about such a thing just to try out ideas, practice and hone appropriate skills on. 

 

How to secure the vehicles (plastic or die-cast) whilst retaining flexibility to run empties would be another area.  And is anyone else harbouring notions of suspending disbelief and running laden Cartic-2s with extra detailing - I know I am, as I seem to be amassing plenty of both wagons (Tierwag and Cartic2) and little cars!

Edited March 24, 2017 by 'CHARD

[Phil Bullock]

So am thinking of two scenarios myself....

 

New Ford vans - from Southampton IIRC - have already acquired enough era appropriate Transit vans to populate two flats

 

http://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=RGID4Pzz&id=C6707B96FFEFFE367B8AC86E847D1BA6F3D02093&q=Oxford+4mm+transit+vans&simid=608023867067596999&selectedIndex=0&ajaxhist=0

 

Just planning on removing the registration plates....

 

Empties also needed as Chard points out but as I am only aiming for a couple of wagon loads to go in other trains not such an issue - am probably going to use the Oxford LMS versions for this traffic

 

And then theres motorail....loaded in both directions so no need for empties. An eclectic mix of vehicles - again period appropriate - planned. The Bacchy Mk1 based version probably for these - GUVs and Newton Chambers double deckers are alternatives for my location/period too

 

So for me the issues are around chocks and ties.....

 

Phil

Edited March 24, 2017 by Phil Bullock

[Wheatley]

I believe (at least some of) the trains ran whether there was a load for them or not. Given the state of industrial relations in the car industry at the time* you might get away with empties in both directions.

 

(* Or was that all a bit later ? I was 4 months old when the Waverley closed)

 

 

['CHARD]

Out of interest, I just went on the Oxford website, and there's no mention of multi-packs of cars to populate the carflats.  Does anyone have an inkling of whether these are aimed at company block trains or public Motorail services?

 

 

 

So for me the issues are around chocks and ties.....

 

Phil

 

This is certainly something I need to understand.  

 

I believe (at least some of) the trains ran whether there was a load for them or not. Given the state of industrial relations in the car industry at the time* you might get away with empties in both directions.

 

(* Or was that all a bit later ? I was 4 months old when the Waverley closed)

 

It's certainly possible, although I would rather keep the exceptional workings to an absolute minimum.  This includes possible diversions from East and West coast routes, which may have involved Motorail services during times of diversion.

Edited March 24, 2017 by 'CHARD

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

 

So for me the issues are around chocks and ties.....

 

Phil

 

I was going to do some etched ones, but as the Oxfordrail models seem to have them, there are possibilities. so it's currently on the back burner.

My plans are to use Oxford, Bachmann, TruScale, and, if I live long enough, scratchbuilt/converted flats to make up rakes for both Motorail and car delivery, as in my period, blue flats weren't so prevelant. this allows me to use the same brown flats for both services, so, with a little inventive fiddle yard shunting, the same wagons can be used for both traffics until I get enough built.

As for vehicles, I'm thinking if the die cast loads are too heavy, then before long, someone will be along with 3D printed cars.

 

Mike.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

 

4. how to handle the logistics of running some stock laden and unladen, covering each above scenario, with the minimum number of wagons

 You want the road vehicles to stay put while the train is in motion, but also easily removeable. Stop all the road vehicle wheels rotating is the first thing, and assess. If they don't stay put when the train is in motion  I'd think magnetic for this application; ideally iron strip on or under the load deck, small magnets under the road vehicles, so you have complete freedom to position the vehicles..

2. laden with late sixties Fords/ Vauxhalls whilst keeping the consist within the weight a Bachmann 45 can handle 

 For your proposed eight to twelve carflat trains, on a level layout: since that loco will easily shift 4kg, the carflats can gross 250g each on the longest proposed train. Body mounted couplers would be better if you get up to that sort of weight. There's also the little matter of plastic bogie frames spreading under load on the pinpoints, just have to assess that in operation.

['CHARD]

 You want the road vehicles to stay put while the train is in motion, but also easily removeable. Stop all the road vehicle wheels rotating is the first thing, and assess. If they don't stay put when the train is in motion  I'd think magnetic for this application; ideally iron strip on or under the load deck, small magnets under the road vehicles, so you have complete freedom to position the vehicles..

 

 For your proposed eight to twelve carflat trains, on a level layout: since that loco will easily shift 4kg, the carflats can gross 250g each on the longest proposed train. Body mounted couplers would be better if you get up to that sort of weight. There's also the little matter of plastic bogie frames spreading under load on the pinpoints, just have to assess that in operation.

 

Now then - magnetic securing is a very interesting idea.  May even get away with rotating wheels I would have thought, depending on relative mass of cars and strength of magnets.  As normal viewing aspect is unlikely to be horizontal at carflat deck level, then little round magnets under the cars' chassis sounds very viable.

[Phil Bullock]

And was having the same thoughts about magnets....

 

http://e-magnetsuk.com/neodymium_magnets/products/adhesive_backed_discs.aspx

 

Only question is - do we have to change polarity dependant on direction of travel? Hee hee

 

Phil

[BernardTPM]

My interest is in modelling the Waverley route in its twilight years.  Car traffic from Merseyside to East Lothian was a prodigious user of the line, with observers' anecdotes recalling rakes in excess of twenty flats, which would itself represent a payload of 80 motor cars.  The new cars being conveyed, and therefore in my sights, were Ford or Vauxhall products from Halewood or Ellesmere Port.

1. laden with late sixties Fords/ Vauxhalls whilst keeping the consist within the weight a Bachmann 45 can handle 

For my Ford set, I am proposing a payload of Minix Anglias and Corsairs with some cosmetic work; Vauxhalls will be Minix Viva HAs and Victor FCs.  The reason for this is weight, and because I find that the crucially most numerous vehicle, the Anglia, is better served in model form by the plastic Minix than (to my eyes) the oddly-proportioned die cast alternatives.  This can also be said of the Viva, whilst there's no choice of ready to roll versions of the larger saloons apart from Minix.

Strictly the HA and FC will cover the years 1964-66 (HA '63-66, FC '64-67, but with a facelift for '66-7). The Anglias run to '68, the Corsairs '65-'70 assuming you have the V4 variant (which have tow hooks). The Minix are basic but nice models though and 'bull up' well. Of those four only the Victor comes with seats.

['CHARD]

Strictly the HA and FC will cover the years 1964-66 (HA '63-66, FC '64-67, but with a facelift for '66-7). The Anglias run to '68, the Corsairs '65-'70 assuming you have the V4 variant (which have tow hooks). The Minix are basic but nice models though and 'bull up' well. Of those four only the Victor comes with seats.

 

The Vauxhalls give me an excuse to doublehead with steam, of course - ironic for the shorter planned train.  That is, shorter based on supply of Minix Vauxhalls, added to the fact that post-'67 is my emphasis, and these cars may be light, but they make your wallet lighter.

 

The Ford set, much more comprehensively photographed, gets my fullest attention.  The only pity being there's no Minix MkI Escort - but who knows, maybe a 3D print is viable.

 

As for interiors, I will check out - on a couple of scrap cars - the effect of spraying the insides in a neutral dark colour.  These are intended to be viewed as passing trains in the landscape, and not scrutinised for hours in an unforgiving photograph.

[APOLLO]

I have eight Cartic 2 sets (16 wagons) each wagon loaded with 4 metal Ford Anglias as supplied by Hornby. They run very well indeed, probably due to the weight and I can reverse the whole rake over Peco points & crossovers without derailment (provided the points are set right !!). There should be 6 Anglias per wagon though. Weight is no problem hauled by a Lima / Bachmann / Heljan Brush 4 (class 47).

 

 

I run my rake with a brake van at the rear - my layout is set around 1966. Did the real Cartic trains run with / without a brake van back then ?. I presume also back in 1966 or so they would be Vacuum braked.

 

I must change the "Motorail" insignia to "Ford" one day.

 

Brit15

 

 

[Fat Controller]

I have eight Cartic 2 sets (16 wagons) each wagon loaded with 4 metal Ford Anglias as supplied by Hornby. They run very well indeed, probably due to the weight and I can reverse the whole rake over Peco points & crossovers without derailment (provided the points are set right !!). There should be 6 Anglias per wagon though. Weight is no problem hauled by a Lima / Bachmann / Heljan Brush 4 (class 47).

 

DSCF1304resized.jpg

 

I run my rake with a brake van at the rear - my layout is set around 1966. Did the real Cartic trains run with / without a brake van back then ?. I presume also back in 1966 or so they would be Vacuum braked.

 

I must change the "Motorail" insignia to "Ford" one day.

 

Brit15

Only the prototype set was vacuum-braked, the other original Motorail sets were air-braked only. There were only a small number of sets, those built by BR for its Motorail services, that carried Rail Blue- half a dozen or so at most. They would have had to have had a van in the early days, but as they were rated at 75 mph max, this would probably been a Full Brake.

Many Cartic-4s were built by Rootes at Linwood, IIRC, so might have been delivered via the WR.

[Enterprisingwestern]

To hold the cars, and their chocks, on the deck, Tacky Wax should suffice.

All the talk of magnets doesn't attract me!

 

Mike.

[APOLLO]

I use a blob of Poundland "Power tack" or "Blue Tack" under each car. No problems.

 

Brit15

[brianusa]

How about the St Austell/Kensington car ferry? Not so many cars needed, not so heavy trains and no elaborate terminals; just a couple of sidings, at least at St A. Perhaps its been done already!

[grahame]

 

All the talk of magnets doesn't attract me!

 

 

You're right - it's repellent.

 

G.

[BernardTPM]

The Ford set, much more comprehensively photographed, gets my fullest attention.  The only pity being there's no Minix MkI Escort - but who knows, maybe a 3D print is viable.

The newest car in the Minix range is the 1964 Victor, though a Ford D lorry (intro.1965) was planned. The Corgi Trackside Escort is 4mm scale, has an interior, isn't too heavy and was available in undercoat form in a 'paint-it-yourself' pack where the model was screwed together rather than riveted. The pack had the Escort, Escort van, Mini and (in 1:72) Mk.I Transit and Bedford CA.

['CHARD]

Hi Chard, very interesting post and I will follow with interest.

 

Just to add to your musings, I believe that new cars left the factory with a fair bit of "protection" attached which remained in place until removed by the dealership as part of the Pre Delivery Inspection. I suspect the railway also took action to protect the vehicles from railway related hazards.

 

For the former, photos of cars leaving the factory may be useful.

 

A quick google revealed a modern example of what I mean and an older photo suggesting that they may not have bothered at all!

 

images-1.jpg

 

images.jpg

 

The Imp trains would be great to model, and represent an even bigger challenge to the modeller - five cars per wagon!  Piece of cake for a pair of EE Type 1s to drag though!!!

[Phil Bullock]

The Imp trains would be great to model, and represent an even bigger challenge to the modeller - five cars per wagon!  Piece of cake for a pair of EE Type 1s to drag though!!!

 

And I bet a pair of the models would have no problem shifting a prototypical load too...

 

Phil

['CHARD]

And I bet a pair of the models would have no problem shifting a prototypical load too...

 

Phil

 

I've somehow reached a total of 17 Imps Phil, as collateral 'damage,' from harvesting all these Minix-filled Tierwags and Cartics!  

 

Now as I plan a cheeky homage to Carlisle Citadel's through lines, albeit only a glimpse, on the planned layout, I'm thinking about keeping the cheeky Imps so I could occasionally replicate the GSW-routed Linwood - Canley service!

[Phil Bullock]

So have ordered some of those self adhesive magnetic discs - will let you know how we get on with them on a lowfit for starters....

 

Phil