DVT used as test bed for new transmission

[newbryford]

Mk3 DVT 82113 is at Bo'ness being converted into a test bed for a new transmission system

 

http://www.artemisip.com/artemis-set-test-alternative-traction-system/

https://www.rssb.co.uk/industry-news/rssb-funds-powertrain-demonstrator

 

Is this a re-invention of hydrostatic drive for rail use?

 

Originally trialled on the Cravens parcel car "Hydra".

 

Cheers,

Mick

 

 

 

Edited December 14, 2017 by newbryford

[jjb1970]

That must be a properly high tech arrangement - its digital!

 

Hydrostatic transmissions have been around for probably as long as diesel engines and in the right application are an excellent technology.

[D854_Tiger]

In my book that's a Western.

 

Surely, modern three phase drives coupled with three phase motors have pretty much negated all the down sides nowadays to diesel electric transmission.

 

 

[jjb1970]

Weren't the diesel hydraulic locomotives fitted with hydrokinetic transmissions? That's a different technology to a hydrostatic transmission.

[D854_Tiger]

Weren't the diesel hydraulic locomotives fitted with hydrokinetic transmissions? That's a different technology to a hydrostatic transmission.

 

Yes, their transmission was largely mechanical except for the fluid drives and torque converters.

 

This kind of transmission involves transmitting power by pumping fluid through pipes, I'm not sure such an approach would stand up to the levels of transmitted power required for locomotives.

 

To give some idea, the most common application of it is for lawn mowers, the type you sit on.

 

I guess the thinking is more for rail car applications.

[Fat Controller]

Yes, their transmission was largely mechanical except for the fluid drives and torque converters.

 

This kind of transmission involves transmitting power by pumping fluid through pipes, I'm not sure such an approach would stand up to the levels of transmitted power required for locomotives.

 

To give some idea, the most common application of it is for lawn mowers, the type you sit on.

 

I guess the thinking is more for rail car applications.

Whilst the most common use may be for ride-on mowers, you'll find hydrostatic transmission is used on large farm machinery and some earthmoving equipment, most usually on vehicles with 4-wheel steering, You can generally tell if it's this sort of drive by the whine from the drive train.

The reason for the hydrostatic transmission in these DVT trials is that there are hydraulic accumulators on board, which store energy from braking to use during acceleration. The first of the two links shows the accumulators clearly:- http://www.artemisip.com/artemis-set-test-alternative-traction-system/

[jjb1970]

Hydrostatic transmissions were quite widely used in marine applications, they offered very high levels of speed control and good torque characteristics. Before AC variable speed drives were so cheap hydrostatic transmissions were very popular in applications where variable speed was needed. The advent of cheap AC VSDs has made them less popular.

 

The weird thing about hydrokinetic transmissions given the experience on BR is that in other applications the technology's main selling point is reliability. I've worked with torque converters in quite a few applications including gas turbine starters and thrusters and I can honestly say I never saw one fail. 

[keefer]

Rail use is rough on a lot of technologies that can otherwise be very reliable in constant speed/load applications.

Some of the hydraulic drive DMUs for example, were particularly prone due to the fact that they were used on routes/services which meant they never going fast enough to get out of convertor drive, leading to overheating and failure

[Foulounoux]

Hydrostatic transmissions were quite widely used in marine applications, they offered very high levels of speed control and good torque characteristics. Before AC variable speed drives were so cheap hydrostatic transmissions were very popular in applications where variable speed was needed. The advent of cheap AC VSDs has made them less popular.

 

The weird thing about hydrokinetic transmissions given the experience on BR is that in other applications the technology's main selling point is reliability. I've worked with torque converters in quite a few applications including gas turbine starters and thrusters and I can honestly say I never saw one fail.

 

That reliability goes for hydraulics in general. I run the European Warranty dept for a major hydraulics company We get parts back for repair that can be 50 years old and only need minor refurbishment, at a reasonable price of course

[DCB]

What will it do?  Pull 5 Mk 3s and a 67 top tail style?

[D854_Tiger]

What will it do?  Pull 5 Mk 3s and a 67 top tail style?

 

Whilst still being a DVT.

 

Presumably, the idea is that all that kit fits underneath, the clue being in the name Artemis Railcar.

 

I assume the idea is to provide a way to use braking energy (energy storage) on diesels trains that are not diesel electric and that's somewhat more efficient than plonking resistors on the roof, to warm up the atmosphere, and thus reduce the kind of emissions that are doing enough of that already.

 

Then the fact that diesel electric trains, like Voyagers and the new IEP, do so suggests using batteries is not considered as a viable way to store braking energy, begging the question as to why we see so many of those hybrid cars on our roads nowadays, other than to save tax and politician's green credentials.

 

I would imagine this technology is designed to sit somewhere between a Parry (fly wheel) railcar and a full blown diesel electric train, on something like the equivalent of a class 150 or a Turbostar.

 

Then considering how so much of what moves on the railway is mostly just that and is likely to be so for many years yet, the railway potential could be huge, if it can be made to work.

[frobisher]

Then the fact that diesel electric trains, like Voyagers and the new IEP, do so suggests using batteries is not considered as a viable way to store braking energy, begging the question as to why we see so many of those hybrid cars on our roads nowadays, other than to save tax and politician's green credentials.

In the case of the IEP, the extra weight of the batteries would probably make the diesel performance less viable to keep to 100mph timings, but given Hitachi's interest in hybrids it would have been considered. The Voyagers are probably even less well suited to it as they don't have a power bus (which is what knocked project Thor on the head).

 

The effective reduced performance of hybrid cars is acceptable to a lot of people (reduced range compared to pure fossil fuelled cars of the same weight), despite the fact that they also produce more particulate pollution than fossil fuelled cars due to increased tyre and brake wear compared to vehicles of the same size class.

[Edwin_m]

In the case of the IEP, the extra weight of the batteries would probably make the diesel performance less viable to keep to 100mph timings, but given Hitachi's interest in hybrids it would have been considered. The Voyagers are probably even less well suited to it as they don't have a power bus (which is what knocked project Thor on the head).

 

The effective reduced performance of hybrid cars is acceptable to a lot of people (reduced range compared to pure fossil fuelled cars of the same weight), despite the fact that they also produce more particulate pollution than fossil fuelled cars due to increased tyre and brake wear compared to vehicles of the same size class.

I saw something about that earlier today, and increased tyre wear on hybrid/electric cars sounds like something of a concern.  However hybrid and electric cars have electric transmission including regenerative braking into the batteries, so should have less wear on the brakes and therefore fewer particulates from this source than other cars.  The same is true of electric trains and even diesel-electrics with rheostatic braking (which I assume the IEP has even in diesel mode). 

Edited March 27, 2017 by Edwin_m

[black and decker boy]

Whilst still being a DVT.

 

Presumably, the idea is that all that kit fits underneath, the clue being in the name Artemis Railcar.

 

.

So that's the replacement for the Aylesbury bubble cars in May, two hydraulic powered DVTs (should that now be DMV) sandwiching a mk3 TSO.

 

Should be fun climbing out of Risborough

[jjb1970]

I tend to think that battery technology may render the diesel engine obsolete in the near future for many applications. One of the perrenial questions in power futurology is whether batteries or hydrogen fuel cells will be the technology of the future but either way I think the diesel engine will become increasingly endangered. On recuperation and energy recovery, there are lots of ways of doing that, many of them very old.

[MarshLane]

Whilst still being a DVT.

 

Presumably, the idea is that all that kit fits underneath, the clue being in the name Artemis Railcar.

 

I would imagine this technology is designed to sit somewhere between a Parry (fly wheel) railcar and a full blown diesel electric train, on something like the equivalent of a class 150 or a Turbostar.

 

Having talked to a colleague in the industry about this project yesterday, my understanding is that the kit is being fitted within/under the DVT - which will then be used as part of the normal 68/Mk3 sets.  During braking, energy is stored onboard, which is then used to enhance acceleration from station/signal stops etc.  Its not intended to replace the loco, nor is it intended to be standalone power for a train - while improvements in technology *may* mean it gets to those stages in the future.

 

At present, the aim is to get back to line speed quicker, with cleaner emissions as the 68 isn't working as hard, which also saves fuel.  Also there is the possibility, depending on how good it works, that station departures could mean that the initial movement comes from the DVT, with the diesel loco only starting to notch up when out of the immediate station area, reducing fumes and improving air quality - although I think that is aspirational depending on the trial.  There's a lot of background reference from JCB in this apparently.

 

Rich

[DavidLong]

This is related to a short news item in the December issue of Today's Railways UK (TRUK). It reports that a company named Artemis Intelligent Power is undertaking work on an Arrive Trains-owned DVT 82113 which will include the fitting of a 900hp JCB diesel engine. The project is being jointly funded by the RSSB and Chiltern Railways. When complete 82113 is expected to be renumbered into the Type 1 classification as Class 19.

 

It further mentions that the gangway end is to be fitted with a second cab similar to the 'blunt' end of a Class 91.

The report is accompanied by a small photograph of 82113 at Artemis' site which shows new grilles cut into the bodyside as air intake for the engine. After completion the loco will spend three months on test at the Bo'ness and Kinneil Railway.

 

This is the first report that I have seen of this project as it doesn't seem to have appeared in either Modern Railways, Rail or, previously, in TRUK and I wondered if anyone had any further knowledge about what appears to be an intriguing project.

 

David

 

[uax6]

There's a bit more on this on Artemis's site:

https://www.theengineer.co.uk/hydraulic-transmission-aimed-at-easing-emissions-on-non-electrified-rail/

 

Andy G

[black and decker boy]

Been in the public domain since the summer.

 

Plenty of info and some insight here

 

http://www.wnxxforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=17439

 

The DVT is being converted at Bo’ness so any photos are there not at Artemis factory.

[Wild Boar Fell]

The Class 19 bit along with the second cab is as far as I am aware only rumours, having questioned one of the stakeholders in this trial earlier this year.

An interesting project all the same.

 

Wild Boar Fell

[corneliuslundie]

Is this intended as a "last mile" or "get you out of trouble" loco? I can't imagine 900 hp going very far very fast, or even coping with long "off the wire" diversions.

Jonathan

[49395]

Is it intended as a proof of concept loco to see if the technology works?

[woodenhead]

It's not intended as a loco - it's to prove technology for something to go alongside the 230 or the Parry People Mover as an alternative to heavy diesel traction on small lines unsuitable for electrification.

 

Think a 153 or 150 replacement.

[frobisher]

Presumably, the MK3 DVT has been selected because it already has a cab and a safety case to allow mainline running, but I'd presume that the idea was not to wholesale rebuild DVTs into DMUs, unless they're eyeing up all the East Anglian rakes that are about to be displaced?

[BernardTPM]

Hydrostatic drive - TRC tried that on Hydra, an ex-Cravens DMU back in 1980.