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Ownership of LSWR T3 no. 563 transfered to Swanage Railway


Paul.Uni
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The T3 is a very attractive locomotive, but it can't really be thought of as a significant item in the NRM's inventory, can it?

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Not any more, it can't.

 

Significance is a subjective thing, but if they change their mind they can't get another one. The NRM have a duty to look after their exhibits, not give them away. As a matter of interest, how much is the T3 worth, I wonder?

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The T3 is a very attractive locomotive, but it can't really be thought of as a significant item in the NRM's inventory, can it?

 

Regards

 

One of the things I loved about the old NRM was that when you walked into what was the MPD you were met by a magnificent array of well polished and mostly pre-grouping locomotives arranged around the turntable. The conversion of the MPD buildings into something resembling a shopping centre nearly 30 years ago didn't change that impressive spectacle, which I suppose could well be considered iconic for the NRM and perhaps it's best advertisement.

Now it's all gone; with empty roads, naff exhibition hoardings taking up other roads, a dearth of any information adjacent to exhibits which isn't designed for 8 year olds and yet more catering space and stalls selling 'Scotsman tat.

Given their direction and disposals of late (as outlined in previous posts) I tend to the think those in upper management need a real shake as to the founding purpose of the NRM.

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. The conversion of the MPD buildings into something resembling a shopping centre nearly 30 years ago.

Well that's better than I thought when I went there not long after it first opened - made me think more like a mausoleum, not been back since. :sungum:

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The T3 is a very attractive locomotive, but it can't really be thought of as a significant item in the NRM's inventory, can it?

 

Regards

 

As important as anything else in the collection, including the myriad of NER and LNER locomotives. But I doubt they'll be parting with any of those.

 

It's a bit like the National Gallery parting with a Turner because they've got one by him. They shouldn't be parting with anything permanently. Loans yes. As long as it's not into someone's back garden like they did with Bressingham a few years ago.

 

I won't mention the total waste of money on a certain locomotive whilst parting with the family silver and making people redundant.

 

 

 

 

Jason

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The T3 is a very attractive locomotive, but it can't really be thought of as a significant item in the NRM's inventory, can it?

 

Regards

I think, if memory serves me correctly, that A.B. MacLeod told me the T3 was set aside by the Southern Railway in the 1930s as the nucleus of a museum that was to be established at Eastleigh. The IOW 2-4-0T Ryde was also restored for display in that museum but the war stopped any further progress and Ryde got scrapped. The T3 is just as significant as any of the other pre-Grouping passenger locomotives in the NRM collection and its preservation is on a similar basis - that people who were around at the time of its withdrawal thought it was significant. The real danger in giving it to a working preservation group is that it will be either stored or, used and then stored, once it's out of ticket. And storage tends to mean dumped up a siding and forgotten about to quietly rust away while other more interesting projects are on the go. Sorry to be critical, but I've seen it repeatedly on preserved railways, even with locomotives that were just on loan from the NRM, not given away. (CJL)

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Perhaps the Swanage railway have a plan for something like the Engine House that this could go into.

If the plan is a tarpaulin at Norden then I'm not sure what anyone was thinking, but why would they take on a liability like this with no plan?

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One of the things I loved about the old NRM was that when you walked into what was the MPD you were met by a magnificent array of well polished and mostly pre-grouping locomotives arranged around the turntable. The conversion of the MPD buildings into something resembling a shopping centre nearly 30 years ago didn't change that impressive spectacle, which I suppose could well be considered iconic for the NRM and perhaps it's best advertisement.

Now it's all gone; with empty roads, naff exhibition hoardings taking up other roads, a dearth of any information adjacent to exhibits which isn't designed for 8 year olds and yet more catering space and stalls selling 'Scotsman tat.

Given their direction and disposals of late (as outlined in previous posts) I tend to the think those in upper management need a real shake as to the founding purpose of the NRM.

Having visited both a couple of summers ago, I'd take NRM Shildon over NRM York if I were only going to one of them.

 

John

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I have never been a lover of stuffed and mounted railway equipment, steam or otherwise, but Train Story on the Isle of Wight Steam Railway and the Engine House on the Severn Valley do a very good job of displaying items that cannot be used and keeping them away from weather that will rot them if stood in a siding. It is very important that preserved lines find a way to keep most of their stock undercover to reduce the cost of restoration and also to give visitors more to see than just what is running on the day of your visit. Let's hope that the Swanage Railway can store and display under the right conditions very soon.

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I won't mention the total waste of money on a certain locomotive whilst parting with the family silver and making people redundant.

 

 

The thousands of ordinary people up and down the country (many of whom have caused a real headache for NR when they decide that standing in the middle of the ECML is the best place to see it go by) suggest that it was NOT a waste of money. As railway enthusiast, part of me does share your sentiments - but on the other hand I am enough of a realist to understand that if railway preservation is to continue to attract Mr & Mrs average, then the FS brand is an immensely powerful tool that needs to be harnessed and used to generate interest / revenue / visits in the years to come*. Yes it is a money pit - but a large chunk of the monies raised to cover its overhaul would simply have not been donated if the NRM had been raising money for anything else.

 

FACT:- The only steam locomotive most ordinary people have ever heard of when asked is "Flying Scotsman"

FACT:- No other steam locomotive generates as much media hype as "Flying Scotsman"

FACT:- The "Flying Scotsman" 'brand' raises massive amounts of money from the non enthusiast market (I refer you to those tacky clocks etc that lots of people buy for their relatives "because so and so likes trains")

 

* Hence why a sense of perspective is needed as regards the rather controversial restrictions placed on the membership of some heritage Railways during its visit, as the primary reason of hosting it is not really to have the sole surviving A3 LNER pacific loco trundling up and down the line for a week - its to use the FS 'brand' to attract all those who don't really care that much about railways - but do want to be able to tell their friends they have been on the "Flying Scotsman steam train".

 

You never know, some  might even enjoy the experience so much they then decide to make repeat visits once FS has moved on and things are back to normal.

Edited by phil-b259
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Perhaps the Swanage railway have a plan for something like the Engine House that this could go into.

If the plan is a tarpaulin at Norden then I'm not sure what anyone was thinking, but why would they take on a liability like this with no plan?

 

Thats the problem - all the Swanage Railway have said is they have acquired the loco. Had they also presented a suitable plan to keep it in its currently good 'showroom' condition then people would be a LOT more happy with the decision by the NRM to dispose of it in the first place.

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Thats the problem - all the Swanage Railway have said is they have acquired the loco. Had they also presented a suitable plan to keep it in its currently good 'showroom' condition then people would be a LOT more happy with the decision by the NRM to dispose of it in the first place.

That's all they've said publicly, and maybe that's all there is.

But the Swanage railway doesn't seem to be the kind of outfit that would agree to take on something like this without having given some thought to what they'll do with it.

And maybe the NRM are a bunch of clowns who I'm overestimating, but I doubt they'd have signed off the move without any indication of what the future holds either.

I can understand the questions being asked, and want to know the answers myself. I'm just not automatically assuming the worst - not yet.

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That's all they've said publicly, and maybe that's all there is.

But the Swanage railway doesn't seem to be the kind of outfit that would agree to take on something like this without having given some thought to what they'll do with it.

.

 

Actually my experience of the Swanage railway is that they have a long track record of starting projects without having thought them through, my personal pet gripe being the carriage shed that eventually received planning permission, the ground was cleared and embankment cut back and then work stopped - the in house mag reporting that their own operating dept had objected to its location for signal sighting reasons!

 

The ONLY reason Swanage should have the T3 is if they are to return it to steam, there is no 'engine house' plan, nor is it realistic to expect one, however its a much better use of SR funds to spend them on a loco that they own, then restoring someone else's locos 

 

Jon (a Swanage Life Member)

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The thousands of ordinary people up and down the country (many of whom have caused a real headache for NR when they decide that standing in the middle of the ECML is the best place to see it go by) suggest that it was NOT a waste of money. As railway enthusiast, part of me does share your sentiments - but on the other hand I am enough of a realist to understand that if railway preservation is to continue to attract Mr & Mrs average, then the FS brand is an immensely powerful tool that needs to be harnessed and used to generate interest / revenue / visits in the years to come*. Yes it is a money pit - but a large chunk of the monies raised to cover its overhaul would simply have not been donated if the NRM had been raising money for anything else.

 

FACT:- The only steam locomotive most ordinary people have ever heard of when asked is "Flying Scotsman"

FACT:- No other steam locomotive generates as much media hype as "Flying Scotsman"

FACT:- The "Flying Scotsman" 'brand' raises massive amounts of money from the non enthusiast market (I refer you to those tacky clocks etc that lots of people buy for their relatives "because so and so likes trains")

 

* Hence why a sense of perspective is needed as regards the rather controversial restrictions placed on the membership of some heritage Railways during its visit, as the primary reason of hosting it is not really to have the sole surviving A3 LNER pacific loco trundling up and down the line for a week - its to use the FS 'brand' to attract all those who don't really care that much about railways - but do want to be able to tell their friends they have been on the "Flying Scotsman steam train".

 

You never know, some  might even enjoy the experience so much they then decide to make repeat visits once FS has moved on and things are back to normal.

 

Well maybe the NRM should be using it's remit to educate those people. That's what it's supposed to be for. Not a theme park and souvenir shop.

 

I remember Rocket 150 which was shown on television with locomotives that were equally as famous. Many of them household names at the time.

 

Why not hype those up as well? Evening Star, Duchess Of Hamilton, Rocket, Hardwicke, Oliver Cromwell, etc.. Even Mallard is getting overlooked.

 

 

I didn't want to bring up F@&%ing Scotsman. But it makes my blood boil that they are letting historic artefacts go when they are hyping up something that wasn't even deemed worthy of preservation. 

 

 

 

 

Jason

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Well maybe the NRM should be using it's remit to educate those people. That's what it's supposed to be for. Not a theme park and souvenir shop.

 

I remember Rocket 150 which was shown on television with locomotives that were equally as famous. Many of them household names at the time.

 

Why not hype those up as well? Evening Star, Duchess Of Hamilton, Rocket, Hardwicke, Oliver Cromwell, etc.. Even Mallard is getting overlooked.

 

 

I didn't want to bring up F@&%ing Scotsman. But it makes my blood boil that they are letting historic artefacts go when they are hyping up something that wasn't even deemed worthy of preservation. 

 

 

 

 

Jason

 

Have you heard of the phrase "you can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink"?  because thats the reality that so many enthusiasts refuse to acknowledge when it comes to FS. If you think the likes of the Rocket etc are 'household names' today you are serious out of touch with modern attitudes where the 'cult of celebrity / being famous' has an astoundingly strong influence on what people think. All your and other enthusiasts agenda would do is make the NRM poorer financially and less visible on the national stage so to speak, where (much like Olympic sports have to keep wining medals to keep their funding) popularity with the masses counts far more with the Whitehall department that provides the museums funding than catering for enthusiasts does. Just as the brand name 'Hover' has become associated with all vacuum cleaners, or to "Google something" has become a byword for using an internet search engine to look up stuff, so it is that that "Flying Scotsman has come to represent the the 'greatest' and 'best' steam locomotive in the world in the minds of the public.

 

As a result the brutal truth is the general public or the media are simply not interested in any other locomotive however much the NRM may hype them up. Its something that becomes blindingly obvious if you volunteer at most heritage railways - to Mr & Mrs Joe public (and their families) one steam train is much like another - unless it is called "Thomas" or "Flying Scotsman". Even before they bought it apparently one of the top questions asked by visitors to the NRM was "where is Flying Scotsman" (which I believe they got round sometimes by pointing visitors to Mallard wearing a "Flying Scotsman" headboard with no complaints from said visitors).

Edited by phil-b259
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None of which explains or excuses so much of the rail capacity in the main hall remaining unoccupied for much of the time. The impression I gained on my most recent visit was that it is gradually being transformed from the public core of the museum, designed to encourage visitors into further investigation of the subject, into a rail-themed eatery.  

 

As for 563; much as I admire the Swanage Railway and trust it to take good care of its gift, I'm dubious about what might set a precedent leading to the effective break-up of the National Collection. A long-term loan arrangement, as has been done successfully in many previous instances, would be more satisfactory IMHO.

 

Those who aren't too bothered about this particular loco should ponder what might be disposed of next.

 

John

Edited by Dunsignalling
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The general state of the NRM is probably because they have a finite amount of money, and bills to pay. They need to sell expensive cakes and tacky FS shaped tins of toffee to cover the cost of keeping the collection in a reasonable state.

The money spent on FS is no doubt part of that, but having it around to pull the hype train is probably a good long term idea IMO. Saying that, I wonder if they would have embarked on bringing it back if they'd known at the start what it would eventually cost.

Edited by Zomboid
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In line with their new policy, the NRM has today (April 1st) agreed to transfer ownership of the sole surviving EM1, 26020 (which, let's face it, is never going to run again) to myself. I am now working up a plan to extend my garden shed to house the loco, and maybe get a couple of MGR wagons to go with it. Then I will be able to offer Woodhead-themed christenings, birthday parties, weddings and funerals.

 

On a more serious note, surely before relinquishing the T3 the NRM has ensured that the loco will will kept in a secure and protected environment, while being available for the public to view ?

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The alternative to the extensive café areas in the museum is charging at the turnstiles. In an age of austerity the NRM's budget is not keeping up with its expenses, so it needs to look at other ways of keeping solvent. I'm sure the 'Scotsman' debacle hasn't helped matters, though.

 

The Swanage Railway will look after the T3 and perhaps restore to it working condition. Better that than pushed out to Shilden which was where I last saw it.

 

Regards

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On a more serious note, surely before relinquishing the T3 the NRM has ensured that the loco will will kept in a secure and protected environment, while being available for the public to view ?

 

The T3 has spent the last ?40? or more years in a secure museum building, its now on a railway which has just two structures that offer undercover storage, an engine shed not long enough to cover both loco and tender, and a goods shed that is currently the only carriage workshop, and is only long enough for 1 coach and one wagon, if they use it for the T3 they won't be able to get a coach in there as well - how is that going to be a 'protected environment' ?

 

Swanage's focus is very much on running families to the seaside and pushing for the mainline connection at Wareham, precious little 'preservation' is occurring - I can see a future announcement along the lines of we won't restore the T3 because there isn't anywhere to put the TPWS (or whatever) signalling system.

 

Jon

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