Ownership of LSWR T3 no. 563 transfered to Swanage Railway

[dibber25]

Have you heard of the phrase "you can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink"?  because thats the reality that so many enthusiasts refuse to acknowledge when it comes to FS. If you think the likes of the Rocket etc are 'household names' today you are serious out of touch with modern attitudes where the 'cult of celebrity / being famous' has an astoundingly strong influence on what people think. All your and other enthusiasts agenda would do is make the NRM poorer financially and less visible on the national stage so to speak, where (much like Olympic sports have to keep wining medals to keep their funding) popularity with the masses counts far more with the Whitehall department that provides the museums funding than catering for enthusiasts does. Just as the brand name 'Hover' has become associated with all vacuum cleaners, or to "Google something" has become a byword for using an internet search engine to look up stuff, so it is that that "Flying Scotsman has come to represent the the 'greatest' and 'best' steam locomotive in the world in the minds of the public.

 

As a result the brutal truth is the general public or the media are simply not interested in any other locomotive however much the NRM may hype them up. Its something that becomes blindingly obvious if you volunteer at most heritage railways - to Mr & Mrs Joe public (and their families) one steam train is much like another - unless it is called "Thomas" or "Flying Scotsman". Even before they bought it apparently one of the top questions asked by visitors to the NRM was "where is Flying Scotsman" (which I believe they got round sometimes by pointing visitors to Mallard wearing a "Flying Scotsman" headboard with no complaints from said visitors).

Museums should not be about 'entertaining' the general public. That's the job of theatres and cinemas. Museums exist to conserve historic artefects for education, study and understanding by those who are interested. If that includes educating schoolchildren so that, one day, a few of them might become interested, or learned, or want to study more deeply, then that's all we can hope for. 'Scotsman' can do a great PR job for the museum. It is not and should never become, the only thing that matters to the NRM - that and 'income'. 

[37038]

I have held back replying to this topic as I have first-hand experience of taking on a former NRM exhibit - so the following is purely my personal thoughts / observations, not in my position as Chairman of Friends of the 502 Group:

 

As others have indicated, the NRM needs money. Joe Public and family are more likely to spend a few quid in the cafes, shops etc at the NRM than the average enthusiast (who generally would bring their own lunch, buy models mail-order to save the extra 50p it would cost to buy from the shop next door). Although FS has obviously taken a huge amount of cash to repair/restore/rebuild/replicate (delete as you see fit!), the lack of funding has been an issue for a number of years.

 

So, to try and stop the rot, the NRM entered into various arrangements for different vehicles - long-term loans, sponsorship, transfer of ownership and disposal. The 502 was on the disposal list when the Friends of the 502 Group was formed - if we had not taken any action, it would be razor blades by now. The main reasons that the unit was on the disposal list was not because of its condition, rather that it was never claimed as part of the National Collection originally. It was due to the efforts of members of Steamport that the unit was saved by the NRM - hence when the move to Preston took place and the 502 was returned, there was nowhere for it.

 

It appears that the T3 was acquired under similar circumstances, so if it is not part of the 'core' collection, then it is understandable that the NRM have transferred ownership.

 

The bottom line is that the bottom line is more important to the survival of railway artifacts at the NRM than their individual history - which, unfortunately, will be the case until all museums are fully-funded by Government. Therefore, when you next go to York or Shildon, buy an over-priced coffee or FS key-ring and consider it a donation to the upkeep of your favourite exhibit.

[jjb1970]

Or alternatively, charge for admission. Private museums have to charge for admission and people accept it. If people want the government owned museums to thrive then they can't just say it's the governments job to pay for it and pretend we're not still running an unsustainable budget deficit and running up more debt and when government expenditure which will affect peoples lives far more than a visit to a museum is under pressure. Museums are both entertainment and educational, and the two things are not exclusive. I enjoy learning in museums but I also want it to be enjoyable and entertaining. And I suspect far more visitors are just looking for a fun day out than to educate themselves. Without all of those non-enthusiasts and non-serious visitors we wouldn't have museums in the form we currently do.

[pete_mcfarlane]

The alternative to the extensive café areas in the museum is charging at the turnstiles. In an age of austerity the NRM's budget is not keeping up with its expenses, so it needs to look at other ways of keeping solvent. I'm sure the 'Scotsman' debacle hasn't helped matters, though.

Charging at the turnstiles would avoid the attempts to strong arm you in to a donation that normally happens at the Science Museum's sites (including the NRM).

[phil-b259]

Museums should not be about 'entertaining' the general public. That's the job of theatres and cinemas. Museums exist to conserve historic artefects for education, study and understanding by those who are interested. If that includes educating schoolchildren so that, one day, a few of them might become interested, or learned, or want to study more deeply, then that's all we can hope for. 'Scotsman' can do a great PR job for the museum. It is not and should never become, the only thing that matters to the NRM - that and 'income'. 

 

Good luck ith convincing HM Treasury with that!

 

The NRM relies on an (ever reducing when costs like pensions and wages are taken into acount) grant from the DCMS to actually stay open - so yes by all means get rid if all those money making cafes, make the displays more specialist etc and see the whole thing collapse as funds dry up.

 

Just as many enthusiasts won't accept the truth that Heritage railways make far more money from the non-railway enthusiast general public than the enthusiast segment, it seems the same is true of the NRM

 

People should be realistic - we have to deal with the world as it is - NOT how we might want it to be - be it the NRM or Brexit. Until the NRM ceases to be funded by HM Government, its aims / goals / remit will heavily be influenced by what the paymasters want. In the case of Government funded museums 'success' equals more people through the door, increasing the financial contribution by secondary activities (eg. sales of food, drink and gifts) with linkages to current educational practice (which is all about interactivity rather than simply being fed a list of data) and what people want generally want from a 'day out'. These days that means being entertained - they don't want to be 'educated' as is traditionally understood (e.g. Loco X and Y are far more important to the development of Britan's railways than FS  because blah, blah, etc). Hence why stuff like "The Great British Bake Off" trumped more educational cookery programmes in the ratings  or "I'm a celebrity get me out of here" gets more viewers than Bear Grylls programmes about surviving in the wild in the TV ratings - or why railway based TV programmes in general get shown on BBC4 rather than BBC1

Edited April 1, 2017 by phil-b259

[PaulRhB]

Yes the donations at a ticket type barrier with till are daft. I object to that and say I'll donate on the way out if they do while I'll happily pay a entrance fee. I did generously at the science museum but only a £1 at the Imperial War Museum because I was so appalled at the displays lack of cohesion.

They can leave kids as free that's more than enough persuasion for most parents and makes school trips possible too.

The T3 at Swanage is a good idea as a LSWR display and although I'd love to see it in steam I don't think it would be a good engine for their service with just four drivers. It lacks the tanks of the M7 so it must be lighter on its feet and would probably struggle with a full train of heavy mk1's up the bank to Harmans Cross.

Making more of the goods shed Museum at Corfe would be my favourite location for a new glass fronted extension shed. Where they'd find the money though ??

[phil-b259]

Charging at the turnstiles would avoid the attempts to strong arm you in to a donation that normally happens at the Science Museum's sites (including the NRM).

 

It would - but then HM Government wouldn't be able to issue nice press releases about how committed they were to ensuring access to museums is not just restricted to those on middle / high incomes or bask in the feel good factor of saying "we have invested £xxxxx in supporting free access so those on low incomes are not excluded"

 

The NRM, as with all National museums funded by the DCMS has to do what its paymasters want - just as NR is duty bound not to be critical of its pay masters (the DfT).

[Torn-on-the-platform]

I'm a little surprised about the negativity towards this announcement - I was very pleased until reading any social media reaction to it! I will admit that the thoughts of 'where will Swanage keep it' immediately came into my head, but there must surely be a plan in place for the NRM to allow this to happen. I hope...

 

From the press release I got the impression that there are no plans to return it to steam at this time so little need to worry about the conservation/restoration debate (though I would personally prefer to see it running, I fully understand the other side of the coin). I find NRM to be a rather sterile, uninspiring environment and to see this particular locomotive in a more familiar setting can't be such a bad thing.

 

I saw the loco a couple of years ago in the Railway Children and it was certainly in need of a cosmetic touch up. I can't imagine trips across the Atlantic and various moves around the country have left it in tip top museum condition.

 

Quite why ownership needed to be transferred, I don't know, considering how successfully other NRM locomotives are looked after elsewhere, but I don't really see the harm either. We may be worried about how the loco will be protected from the elements, but its not like removing it from the National Collection puts it at risk of being scrapped or lost - it is still preserved and available for all to enjoy. Its now in the hands of a passionate society that will surely do their best to look after it.

Edited April 1, 2017 by Torn-on-the-platform

[stewartingram]

On a similar theme, today I've been catching up on reading my recent magazines. Of note, the NRM has now donated a GWR open wagon to the Welshpool ng railway. It will be displayed (outside) at the Welshpool terminus as a reminder of former standard gauge transhipments.

So, again, no disrespect to the W&LLR, a preserved wagon from the National Collection ( and they are sadly lacking in relationship to the number of preserved locos), has been given to another outside party. They will park it outside, not under cover. Is that conservation?

In all these cases, the new owners may have good intentions and grand ideas for the future. But there is no statutory requirement for them to actually maintain status quo. So sometime in the future, for some reason (shortage of funds, taken over by a commercial body with no interest, change of decision making directors, or anything else), these items could be disposed of with an uncertain future. Wrong in my opinion. What else is going from the NRM?

 

Stewart

[Steamport Southport]

I think people are negative towards this announcement due to the fact that a few days ago we owned it. Yet it's been given away without any consultation or proposal to the taxpaying public. I've a feeling it's just the tip of the iceberg and we'll soon see other items going. You shouldn't be able to just give away property that's not even yours. You are supposed to be looking after it on behalf of the nation.

 

If it's financial reasons then why not put steamable locomotives out for hire? I'm sure that certain railways would be knocking the door down for the loan/hire of locomotives like the Q1. D11, Black Five, Midland Compound, V2, Q7, etc. All of which have steamed previously.

 

Or even ask for donations. If they put out an SOS We Need Funds then I'm sure quite a few would dig deep.

 

 

 

As for paying on the door. They tried that and it costs more to enforce than it does to just let people walk in. That is what the National Lottery Heritage Fund was set up for.

 

I've not got a problem with having eateries and gift shops. But last time I visited I thought the gift shop was pitiful. The book selection was particularly poor. I normally purchased at least one hefty tome from there. Not that time.

 

 

 

Jason

[PhilH]

If ownership is transferred then one could surmise that it could be sold on for a large profit, unless of course there are conditions placed on the transfer.

 

Can you give something away then tell the recipient what they can and can't do with their gift?

[phil-b259]

 

I've not got a problem with having eateries and gift shops. But last time I visited I thought the gift shop was pitiful. The book selection was particularly poor. I normally purchased at least one hefty tome from there. Not that time.

 

 

Which perhaps illustrates the point - you are not the demographic the NRM needs to worry about catering for. Enthusiasts who purchase 'hefty tomes' are outnumbered by the general public buying cheap tat (or in some cases not so cheep) as a souvenir of the day or as a 'nice present' for a relation who happens to 'like trains'. If your remit is to make as much extra money from gifts etc (to offset the lack of funds coming from your primary funding source - i.e. the DCMS) then quantity (in sales volumes) is more important than content.

[Synch]

This is a tough one from what I've read and my own personal feelings regarding the NRM's collection of engines that will probably never go mainline; when the North Staff New L was bequeathed to the Foxfield I was rather pleased, as since being in the NRM's collection since the 90's it was seemed to jsut have been left in a corner to be gather dust and not really be noticed, especially with the transfer to Locomotion, with the Foxfield it will be overhauled and will more then likely become the jewel in their crown so to speak.

 

Th T3's a little more difficult to judge, being an engine that whilst not at the forefront of the collection was always rather noticeable alongside the likes of the D17, Midland Compound, SECR D and even Mallard for that matter.  The engine's going to a railway which from what I can tell has very little covered storage to cater for it, and whilst I would love nothing more then solid plans for an inspection to see how difficult a task it would be to get a gem of the Victorian and Edwardian era to steam again, I want to know that the Swanage and NRM have thought this through more then just dumping what the NRM considers by this point an "extra" to a railway they think can handle it.

[Steamport Southport]

Which perhaps illustrates the point - you are not the demographic the NRM needs to worry about catering for. Enthusiasts who purchase 'hefty tomes' are outnumbered by the general public buying cheap tat (or in some cases not so cheep) as a souvenir of the day or as a 'nice present' for a relation who happens to 'like trains'. If your remit is to make as much extra money from gifts etc (to offset the lack of funds coming from your primary funding source - i.e. the DCMS) then quantity (in sales volumes) is more important than content.

 

Yes. But if you don't have them in stock then nobody can buy them. Including books that are published by or in conjunction with the NRM such as the Wild Swan Midland/LMS locomotives books  Missing on my last visit.

 

But hey. If they don't want my money then Amazon can have it.

 

 

But I don't know why funding is even being discussed. It's irrelevant. The locomotive was probably cost neutral apart from a clean every now and again. Giving it to someone else isn't going to save money.

 

It is apparently going to be put on display outside Swanage Station. Lovely. Loads of salty sea air for it to look like a Barry wreck in a few years.  

 

 

 

Jason

[burgundy]

I wonder if the Bluebell Line should be making an offer to repatriate Gladstone and Boxhill down south?

Best wishes

Eric

[Dunsignalling]

If ownership is transferred then one could surmise that it could be sold on for a large profit, unless of course there are conditions placed on the transfer.

 

Can you give something away then tell the recipient what they can and can't do with their gift?

Only if you agree any such conditions at the outset. Otherwise the new owner has free rein.

 

John

[dibber25]

The London Transport Museum is packed full of exhibits, has excellent explanatory signage and interpretive material, is usually rammed full of visitors and has a fairly hefty admission charge. It doesn't have concessions, eatery carts, and tat sales stalls where exhibits ought to be.  It's also not run by the Science Museum. To answer post 65 above, the T3 has been away from York/Shildon for a long time. It's place at Shildon has been filled by other exhibits ejected from York in order to make way for more lucrative concession stalls. I wonder how much the T3 earned for the NRM during its tours of duty with The Railway Children? Can't believe they let it go for free........oh, wait a minute, though....(CJL)

[Dunsignalling]

I think people are negative towards this announcement due to the fact that a few days ago we owned it. Yet it's been given away without any consultation or proposal to the taxpaying public. I've a feeling it's just the tip of the iceberg and we'll soon see other items going. You shouldn't be able to just give away property that's not even yours. You are supposed to be looking after it on behalf of the nation.

 

If it's financial reasons then why not put steamable locomotives out for hire? I'm sure that certain railways would be knocking the door down for the loan/hire of locomotives like the Q1. D11, Black Five, Midland Compound, V2, Q7, etc. All of which have steamed previously.

 

Or even ask for donations. If they put out an SOS We Need Funds then I'm sure quite a few would dig deep.

 

 

 

As for paying on the door. They tried that and it costs more to enforce than it does to just let people walk in. That is what the National Lottery Heritage Fund was set up for.

 

I've not got a problem with having eateries and gift shops. But last time I visited I thought the gift shop was pitiful. The book selection was particularly poor. I normally purchased at least one hefty tome from there. Not that time.

 

 

 

Jason

If lack of space is the reason behind this move, there are more obvious choices of locomotive.

 

With numerous examples of both classes preserved elsewhere, it would have been more logical to dispose of the Black Five and Winston Churchill rather than the T3.

 

I'm sure (for example) that the Severn Valley would love a 'can to go with their two rebuilts.

 

John

Edited April 1, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[bike2steam]

It is apparently going to be put on display outside Swanage Station. Lovely. Loads of salty sea air for it to look like a Barry wreck in a few years.

That's interesting, seeing as Swanage Railway don't own any land around the station, perhaps they'll put it on the platform. If true,probably a corner of Herston Works - for now.

[Ohmisterporter]

I may be doing the NRM a disservice but can't avoid the feeling that the gifting of the T3 is less a case of "That's another one gone to a good home," and more a case of "Thank God that's another one off our hands".

[jjb1970]

The London Transport Museum is packed full of exhibits, has excellent explanatory signage and interpretive material, is usually rammed full of visitors and has a fairly hefty admission charge. It doesn't have concessions, eatery carts, and tat sales stalls where exhibits ought to be.  It's also not run by the Science Museum. To answer post 65 above, the T3 has been away from York/Shildon for a long time. It's place at Shildon has been filled by other exhibits ejected from York in order to make way for more lucrative concession stalls. I wonder how much the T3 earned for the NRM during its tours of duty with The Railway Children? Can't believe they let it go for free........oh, wait a minute, though....(CJL)

 

Maybe the hefty admission charge and the lack of stalls selling tat are connected, in which case maybe that is a hint for the Science Museum museums?

[4630]

I wonder if things would have been different had the NRM initally offered the T3 for sale to a 'heritage' railway.

 

If there were no takers after that exercise and the locomotive is really deemed as historically unworthy and unwanted by the NRM, they always could have tried Booths* in Rotherham to see what its scrap value is.

 

* other recycling companies are available. 

[Dava]

Sadly, the same press release is on the NRM website so it's not an April Fool spoof:

http://www.nrm.org.uk/aboutus/pressoffice/pressreleases/2017/march/t3-swanage?keywords=T3

 

I have grave misgivings about the NRM, not flogging off, but giving away the family silver in this way. Where is the conservation & display plan for this loco? It is a real concern if the NRM is now gifting rather than lending locos to preserved railways and other sites, especially without secure covered display accommodation. There have been several cases of NRM exhibits being recalled from loan owing to the treatment/neglect they received, including the G2, 4F, J52, nearly the Midland 2-4-0 158a [until the roof at Butterley completely blows off], the North Stafford locos etc. Gifting a loco or other exhibit means it's gone permanently.

 

It will be interesting to see on what basis the NRM makes the exhibits available to the GCR Museum at Leicester North, the GCT has a very good record of stewardship of National Collection locos.

 

Dava

[Oldddudders]

We are living in a recession. There is no money coming in. HM Treasury is tightening its grip on all Govt Departments. The Science Museum has to balance its budget. Getting rid of obscure artefacts and rusty heaps - which rather less than 10% of the public care about - makes sense, as does running coffee stalls instead of historic exhibits.

 

We may weep, but this is the world in 2017.

[jjb1970]

We are living in a recession. There is no money coming in. HM Treasury is tightening its grip on all Govt Departments. The Science Museum has to balance its budget. Getting rid of obscure artefacts and rusty heaps - which rather less than 10% of the public care about - makes sense, as does running coffee stalls instead of historic exhibits.

 

We may weep, but this is the world in 2017.

 

I agree except for the living in a recession bit. The economy has been growing for quite a while, unfortunately the government is still running a large budget deficit which leads to the effects you mention without us being in a recession.