Guius Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 Hi Paul, Forgive my naivety as a novice but I keep hearing reference made to 'box frame construction' could you enlighten me, I'm intrigued. Guy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall5 Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 The Lee Marsh Manor sounds nice but I'm not sure about the "polished brass dome". Fortunately I got my Manor at an advantageous price when Randolph Chang was clearing out the Brassworks. I'm enjoying following your thread as I remember Penmaenpool in its working days. Unfortunately I don't think I took any photos. Ray.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Focalplane Posted May 9, 2017 Author Share Posted May 9, 2017 Hi Paul, Forgive my naivety as a novice but I keep hearing reference made to 'box frame construction' could you enlighten me, I'm intrigued. Guy Guy, it's my name for a modular version of L girder construction. The base would be a sturdy framework with folding legs, topped with L girders. The modules would then fit on the L girders with an open framework that supports the track base. Here are two quick scans of how a full L girder system works for a fixed layout. They are taken from my bible, the Encyclopedia of Model Railways. First, a complete layout Next, a close up of the track base fixed to the L girder. In my case the entire module(s) would be fixed to the L girders In the months ahead I will try to explain the construction with photos. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Focalplane Posted May 9, 2017 Author Share Posted May 9, 2017 We have been back in France for a few days, taking our time with stops at Tours and Arcachon. The latter was most interesting but apart from the old town of Arcachon didn't leave much to be desired until well inland. Languedoc scores more points! Now back we are reinforcing our view that a house with a garden would suit our ongoing needs. So the search will begin. Unfortunately most old buildings in the area are within the village with little of no outdoor space, so it may be that a new build will emerge as the favourite. New builds include those already built during the past 20 years which would be an advantge. We missed a golden opportunity of buying a rare three stor(e)y town house with large garden three years ago. The English owners had to sell but we did not have the necessary funds to buy at the time. They left us as the only English residents in the village and vowed never to return, being heart broken at having to sell up. The UK economy was their problem. This forward looking plan means that a garden railway is a definite possibility. How to fit a detailed through station into a garden railway could be a challenge, but a long narrow garden shed might prove to be possible with dumbbell loops outdoors of each end (see Coachmann's concepts for Carrog). DCC reverse loops could be a simple answer to letting one train circle the track, though I must admit my current Digitrax AR-1 can be unreliable at times when a locomotive turns through 180º on the Legge Lane turntable. Meantime the first module (engine shed) can proceed regardless. Off to the bricolage tomorrow! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guius Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 Hi Paul, It all makes more sense now, I would imagine more realistic contours are achievable with this method of construction, a little less 'flat earth' approach. Perhaps more time and effort required in the construction as well as being less adaptable to track changes. Still, rather pleasing. Please keep us up to date with progress. Thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Focalplane Posted May 11, 2017 Author Share Posted May 11, 2017 Quiet on the modelling front but I have been doing more research for photos and have found some useful shots taken in 1970 of the entire station complex. Someone knew that this location would be modelled in the future. There are some useful photos in and around the engine shed, including the water tank, hidden in most other photos. Even the engine shed outdoor latrine is included! Cast concrete supports for the wooden platforms are also photographed. This might be a useful project for producing resin castings, there will be plenty required. The supports include a vertical post for the railing at the rear of the platforms. These photos mean that Module 1 is now in good shape for being started with a good deal of confidence. The photos taken in 1970 do show significant neglect and I believe this should not be representative of what went before when the trains were running. My own experience on the North Warwickshire Line suggests that there would have been serious competition between the stations for keeping up appearances, even during the end of steam years. Earlier photos (the ones with Class 4 Standards) do show tidiness if not exuberance in the gardening area. No hanging baskets! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Focalplane Posted May 12, 2017 Author Share Posted May 12, 2017 My thoughts on designing the modules have been tossed around in my mind and I think I have come up with a reasonably light weight solution. Essentially I will be adopting an L Girder system, using a module length of 2 girders as the temporary foundation. Next I will position 5 cross laths of marine grade plywood, 12mm thick by 120 mm tall, fixing them temporarily to the two L girders. Why 120mm? To accommodate the Tortoise point motors. More marine ply will be used to create the back scene and front scene formers. The coastal former will require additional horizontal strengthening in order to introduce rigidity as it is not "high" where the estuary meets the shore. This will provide a simple but strong framework, using additional bracing to maintain "squareness". Next I will cut out the track beds and also form the inspection pits within the engine shed area. As the track bed is essentially flat along the length of the layout, this will be fitted directly into the tops of the cross laths, adding fillets to provide more stability and rigidity at the joins. Risers will not be used for the track base, saving on weight and adding rigidity. They will be used, though, to form the scenic contours and these will be tied in to the back scene and front scene formers where appropriate. There will be space provided for buildings, all of which will have their own bases (much as I used in Shipston-on-Stour, see here) except the engine shed and platforms which will sit directly on the track base. I will use carved polystyrene blocks for the banks and cuttings, again to keep the weight at a minimum. The module can then be tested for rigidity and if possible it will be detached from the L girders which will be the basis for constructing the next module. Track laying and basic scenery can then be completed. When it comes to final installation, long L girders will be built to provide continuity between modules. Well, that's the theory! The challenge now is to put it into practice. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Focalplane Posted May 13, 2017 Author Share Posted May 13, 2017 A visit to the local bricolage this afternoon came up with a total potential redesign of the previous post. After spending a lot of time and some money at Huws Gray in Porthmadog over the past year on really good timber products I was totally dismayed by what Tridome has on offer in Perpignan. It looks like I will have to go with MDF that will need to be varnished/primed to protect it from any damp. The modules will be indoors but even so MDF has a habit of attracting moisture. No marine ply was available and the best quality ply was, well, not very stable. Even the wood for the L girders was warped. Oh dear! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcD Posted May 13, 2017 Share Posted May 13, 2017 We used baseboard kits from Grainge and Hodder on our light railway layout they go together very quickly and the only thing you need to get are the uprights for the legs. Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Focalplane Posted May 13, 2017 Author Share Posted May 13, 2017 I worry that local carpenters will have access to the same supplies as me. And importing ready made baseboards. . . At what cost? Don't worry, there are oher sources. I was spoiled in Porthmadog, it s just a case of finding a better supplier. Tridome is actually a good company but they don't know how to store timber. Flat, please, not vertical! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymw Posted May 13, 2017 Share Posted May 13, 2017 If you want light weight and straight, maybe metal studding would be an answer for the framing. Humidity does not effect it https://www.travisperkins.co.uk/Product/Building-Materials/Insulation+Plasterboard/Plaster+Plasterboards/Metal-Stud-Partitioning/c/1500225?q=%3Arelevance&show=All I used it a number of years ago, as intended for partitions, and easy to use. Alternatively, if you can only get bowed sheets of 12mm ply, and you want straight strips, then use 6mm strips, glued back to back. You can get 'waterproof' mdf and chipboard, if weight is not a problem, and humidity is. If appearance does not matter, then 'Sterling board' is fairly stable, but generally not as stiff as ply. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcD Posted May 13, 2017 Share Posted May 13, 2017 he is the link for the base boards. www.graingeandhodder.co.uk/store/c1/Featured_Products.html to get the track raised up I sat it on 25mm kingspan foam board insulation from B&Q. You can use 50mm if you want to go higher. Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold phil_sutters Posted May 13, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 13, 2017 We arrived back in France yesterday after a journey including a terrifying half hour through a rain/hail storm near Toulouse. The Ivatt 2MT has had a brief workout and performed well. The sound chip is excellent and slow running is also very good. Here is the photo of the Ivatt as it moves down the incline past its future shed-mates: IMG_0415.jpg For Penmaenpool the only current real shed mate is 1459, another Oswestry 89A loco. In this case, 1459 has been released from storage inside Oswestry Works as a temporary replacement before a 74XX is available. That will probably be an MOK kit which is very similar to the 14XX in design and build characteristics. Later than your chosen era and with two numbers transposed but I don't expect much had changed in ten years or so. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwr Posted May 14, 2017 Share Posted May 14, 2017 A visit to the local bricolage this afternoon came up with a total potential redesign of the previous post. After spending a lot of time and some money at Huws Gray in Porthmadog over the past year on really good timber products I was totally dismayed by what Tridome has on offer in Perpignan. It looks like I will have to go with MDF that will need to be varnished/primed to protect it from any damp. The modules will be indoors but even so MDF has a habit of attracting moisture. No marine ply was available and the best quality ply was, well, not very stable. Even the wood for the L girders was warped. Oh dear! Your supplier must have been good. I don't think I have ever bought a piece of wood that was not warped from our local supplier in Sussex Paul R Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Focalplane Posted May 14, 2017 Author Share Posted May 14, 2017 (edited) Later than your chosen era and with two numbers transposed but I don't expect much had changed in ten years or so. Cl2 2-6-0 46521 Penmaenpool 27 8 1964.jpg Phil Thank you for showing the photo of 46521 at Penmaenpool. In the six years following this photo the entire remaining infrastructure was decaying rapidly as shown by a set of photos taken in 1970. The wooden platform looks in excellect condition considering this was very close to the end, whereas in 1970 the planks are missing, mis-aligned and rotting. It is also more evidence that Penmaenpool was used for two trains passing, despite Dolgellau being only a few miles to the east. Thanks again, Paul Edited May 14, 2017 by Focalplane Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Focalplane Posted May 14, 2017 Author Share Posted May 14, 2017 Your supplier must have been good. I don't think I have ever bought a piece of wood that was not warped from our local supplier in Sussex Paul R Yes, Huws Gray, being a builders merchants, are exceptional. I bought 20 lengths of 2"x 1" from them and not one was warped in any way or form. They are expanding their area of stores but have not reached Sussex yet. An Anglesey success story. For OO gauge Shipstpn on Stour I used MDF skirting board material available in France and it worked well. But Gauge O needs something larger, so it looks as though I will be using 16mm MDF for the cross members and 10mm MDF for the back scene, etc. the L girders could be made of Aluminium, that is worth looking into. "Alu" is a very common building material used in southern France. Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold phil_sutters Posted May 14, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 14, 2017 Phil Thank you for showing the photo of 46521 at Penmaenpool. In the six years following this photo the entire remaining infrastructure was decaying rapidly as shown by a set of photos taken in 1970. The wooden platform looks in excellect condition considering this was very close to the end, whereas in 1970 the planks are missing, mis-aligned and rotting. It is also more evidence that Penmaenpool was used for two trains passing, despite Dolgellau being only a few miles to the east. Thanks again, Paul I am pleased that the photo was of interest. If you would like to see it, I have Dad's loco spotting log for this journey, which I could scan and upload. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Focalplane Posted May 14, 2017 Author Share Posted May 14, 2017 I am pleased that the photo was of interest. If you would like to see it, I have Dad's loco spotting log for this journey, which I could scan and upload. Phil That would be most useful. I am having a hard time selecting a 43XX mogul number - though they may have been withdrawn by 1964. The three photos I have of 43XXs at Penmaenpool are all listed as being shedded at Didcot and South Wales. Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Focalplane Posted May 14, 2017 Author Share Posted May 14, 2017 The idea of an aluminium L girder base for building each module is becoming more attractive. It would be a jig designed to create identical module bases that could later be attached to each other on a long run of built in girders made of timber (or aluminium). Today all the shops are closed, but next week should see me selecting appropriate parts and putting the jig together. Except that I have also promised some day trips into the mountains. . . . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted May 14, 2017 Share Posted May 14, 2017 Phil That would be most useful. I am having a hard time selecting a 43XX mogul number - though they may have been withdrawn by 1964. The three photos I have of 43XXs at Penmaenpool are all listed as being shedded at Didcot and South Wales. Paul I may have missed this but is 1964 your chosen year? If so it seems a bit late and is during the London Midland takeover period and GWR motive power was fading fast. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold phil_sutters Posted May 14, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 14, 2017 Phil That would be most useful. I am having a hard time selecting a 43XX mogul number - though they may have been withdrawn by 1964. The three photos I have of 43XXs at Penmaenpool are all listed as being shedded at Didcot and South Wales. Paul There don't seem to be any Moguls in the log, but I will scan it and upload it anyway. Checking through Dad's earlier log books, the nearest he got to mid-Wales was in the areas round Hereford and Cardiff where his parents and in-laws respectively lived. In 1953 he spotted 6352 (85C) at Hereford, 4375 (84F) at Pandy, 5382 (86C) at Newport, 7303 (82B) at Stapleton Road Bristol, 6360 (82C) at Bristol TM, 5347, 6362 & 6352 all (85C) at Hereford. The Hereford (85C) shedded ones were a bit nearer to your patch. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold phil_sutters Posted May 14, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 14, 2017 (edited) I may have missed this but is 1964 your chosen year? If so it seems a bit late and is during the London Midland takeover period and GWR motive power was fading fast. 1964 is a bit of a red herring - it was the date of the only photo I had, taken by my Dad, at Penmaenpool. I offered Dad's log book record as this seemed to be the only trip he made along that line in the 50s & 60s. Paul's period is in the mid fifties, but obviously his interest in the line extends beyond the period modelled. Edited May 14, 2017 by phil_sutters Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Focalplane Posted May 14, 2017 Author Share Posted May 14, 2017 I may have missed this but is 1964 your chosen year? If so it seems a bit late and is during the London Midland takeover period and GWR motive power was fading fast. Larry No, my chosen year is still the late 1950s, but some variety is necessary, so I am more than happy to have a 1956 day or a 1964 day. No Standard Class 4 4-6-0s though unless someone produces an RTR or kit of one. I might even have a Heritage Railway day as you can at Carrog! Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Focalplane Posted May 14, 2017 Author Share Posted May 14, 2017 I have been thinking about Penmaenpool for only three weeks but a lot seems to be locked in place. One aspect that isn't is the exact time period. The good news is that the photos so far show that Penmaenpool was maintained in much the same state from 1948 to 1964, which means I can build the layout and then run early BR and late BR trains. Not necessarily together though. I am hoping to report some progress on the garden railway front this coming week. Fingers crossed, or as they say around here, "Bon Chance". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold phil_sutters Posted May 14, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 14, 2017 (edited) Here's the log for Dad's trip from Cardiff to Bangor via Penmaenpool on 27.8.1964 Edited May 16, 2017 by phil_sutters 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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