Brass Betsy for Pennsylvanian shortline

[bertiedog]

Reference the Pennsylvanian Shortline posting

http://www.rmweb.co....__fromsearch__1

 

and Lindsay and Varney diesel build.

http://www.rmweb.co....__fromsearch__1

From a purchase on US Ebay, A vintage Brass Kit from "Great Western" models, once of Studio City, CA, ......the Vintage 280 Consolidation "Brass Betsy".

 

The kit dates from the early 1950's, and is nearly all brass construction, lost wax castings and stamped, coined and etched brass parts.

 

It was made by "Great Western Models", and contains both Kemtron and Lindsay parts. After a few years it became part of the Kemtron range, along with the Lindsay products.

 

Throughout the 1950's the kit was offered in a modified version for Hon3 and Kemtron offered a service of setting up the original chassis to run properly on the early versions.

 

 

The kit is basically well made and very well detailed, even offering working valve gear, and has a nice selection of lost wax brass castings, and brass turnings by Kemtron. The working valve gear movement comes from a floating yoke on a cam on the front axle, and rocks the inside vale gears rockers driving the valve rods.

 

The early original kit had a rather poor motor, and Lindsay offered an upgrade L-720 motor, which this kit has in the box. This motor is a seven pole skewed slot motor, top quality.

 

 

The gears are Kemtron, again good as are the Kemtron wheels, which are steel tyred brass centred wheels. The frame is a one piece lost wax brass casting, as is the cylinder block and slidebars.

 

 

Now the minus points.....the cast lost wax siderods are inaccurately drilled, not quite matching the frame, and the middle axles are lower than the outer, not exactly a good situation at all.

 

This was the problem that Kemtron over came with the re-build service offered in the 1950's catalogues. They re-milled the frames and supplied new rods to fit exactly. The problem is easy to cure in the home workshop!

 

The second problem is the Lindsay Motor, fantastic performance, but even in this small version it sticks out of the cab back!!! It can be moved forward, but the best solution may be a new gearbox, using the original gears, and a modern motor like a Maxon coreless, with a universal joint.

 

This solution would also make springing the locomotive easier, it was always easy to do with Varney style wire suspension, but fully floating Varney, CSB style, would be superior.

 

The offered Ebay item has been partly built and truly awfully painted, jumping the gun on that one, so the first thing is to turn it back into a kit of clean brass parts, and sort out extra screws and some extra fine detailing, brakes, and cab details if the smaller motor is used.

 

The cab is all soldered up out of true, but recoverable as is the lost wax brass boiler and cast smokebox front, soldered on wonky at the moment!

 

 

Not sure if they were original equipment with the kit, it has very nice Central Valley fully sprung Fox Bogies in an original type CV plastic box, suggesting a later replacement item?

 

 

I had understood the kit came with unsprung brass Kemtron bogies, but the Central Valley are far superior, superior running and detailing, and non magnetic axles for use with Kadee couplings.

 

The front bogie needs at least one new wheel, as all that was supplied was a Nylon moulded wheel for the insulated side, and in milky white nylon as well !!, so all brass wheels, or stainless steel wheels, will be made to replace both.

 

 

The Loco main driver wheel flanges are very small, well under the old RP-25 limit, and within the new fine version standards. The CV tender flanges are the usual CV fine size.

 

I will post details of the re-build as it proceeds.

 

Stephen

[Gordon A]

What is the cam on the leading axle for?

 

Gordon

Bristol

[bertiedog]

What is the cam on the leading axle for?

 

Gordon

Bristol

 

Amazingly ....for working valve gear, remember this kit was designed in the 1940's.....it rocks the rocker shaft to drive the outside rockers and drive the valve rods, and don't complain there are no joints in the rod, oddly until about 1890+ loco simply flexed the valve rod to allow the movement on the real thing!!

 

Stephen.

[shortliner]

More fun for you - the previous owner certainly made a "Horlicks" of the painting - and his soldering skills were wanting, too!

[bertiedog]

Least said about the painting the better, no undercoat, and the tender lining defies description, but don't blame the seller, it stood unfinished for 50 years!...testimony to Floquil paint sticking to brass quite well!!

 

One item may sadly be beyound recovery, and that is the fancy gold scrolling waterside transfers, age has got at them, might recover with a gentle soak though. May have to source new or get some printed, although it would still look good in a 20th century plainer black livery, with more minor colour trim.

 

The transfer sheets look like the Dead Sea Scrolls parchments at the moment, I dare not un-roll them, without a soak in weak decal solve, or similar.

 

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

The Dead Sea Scrolls transfer sheets!!

 

 

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

With reference to:-

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/topic/12288-replacement-brushes-detailed-dimensions-needed-urgently/page__pid__109078__st__0entry109078

 

 

I need some details on modern round carbon brushes for the Lindsay motors, I am fitting a Dublo brush filed down for now, but need more, anybody know the diameter of current Hornby or other round brushes at least 7/8 mm long?

 

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

 

The Brass Betsy Body, Smoke box, Chassis, and Cylinder block cleaned up and re-built a bit. It now sits correctly on the saddle and back of the cab, which it did not before, due to un-fettled, or filed castings. The paint was left on to act as witness for finishing the cast parts, showing level etc.

 

I think the bad soldering may be laid at the door of Great Western Models, as I am told that the main body bits were always supplied partly soldered before Kemtron took over the production. Another Betsy sold on Ebay recently, had exactly the same pre-assembled parts.

 

The instructions are a bit of a joke, one sheet, and your on your own, so I can see why so many modellers were foxed at getting the whole kit assembled properly.

 

The loco chassis and cylinders, and the smokebox front are cast in lost wax phosphor bronze, much harder wearing for the un-bushed chassis, but more difficult to fettle and file to an acceptably fine standard of surface finish.

 

The main body bits are visibly soldered together with solder paint, other added bits with ordinary solder. The smoke box was soldered on wonky and off set, but the soldering looked original.

 

At least the abandonment has left a good set of parts to work with! Detail level is about the same as Japanese Brass, but far more solid and many more lost wax parts. The motor is far superior, but may be replaced on size grounds alone.

 

The wheels are standard Kemtron type, all steel tyres and brass spokes, and with accurate quartering. The bad part is the machining of the rods and axle holes depth, but very easy to cure.

 

The tender is next, again it is factory assembled, and needs attention to the flared top, un-evenly folded. The cast base is 100%, as are the Central Valley Fox bogies, but new insulated mounting bushes are need for the main floor casting, as the old ones have crumbled away, due to age. At least the extra insulation gives an isolated chassis, no shorts via couplings.

 

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

 

 

Found copy of the Kemtron catalogue from 1953, showing "Great Western", (Original Maker), ...defunct.., so the kit should pre-date that, but is does have Kemtron made drivers, and the Lindsay motor conversion, which may indicate just after '53 when Kemtron sold existing stock, and maybe used the boxes.

 

But the instructions refer only to the old Studio City address, so I think pre-1953, with additions made by the purchaser at the time, so say 58 years old, and still not built......

 

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

And after a phone conversion with an NMRA member, he confirms the awful soldering is basically original!! The body came part assembled, as did the tender body wrapper....can't have helped sales at all for Great Western....no wonder it became "defunct"!

 

Looks like a few screws will be replaced with BA sizes, the US small sizes are not easy to source these days in the UK.

 

Most screws are in the box, but some are not, nothing important. Some sizes are described as "Optical Screws", but having worked in optical manufacture, I wonder what the US makers are on about?

 

Nothing in Machinery's Handbook References, maybe they mean fine pitch metric screws? Lindsay use the term optical screws as well, most mysterious, as are most US thread systems anyway....completely non-standard.(we pre-dated the US ones, so protectionism must have been the reason).

 

Stephen.

[Adrian Wintle]

Most screws are in the box, but some are not, nothing important. Some sizes are described as "Optical Screws", but having worked in optical manufacture, I wonder what the US makers are on about?

 

Nothing in Mechanic Handbook References, maybe they mean fine pitch metric screws? Lindsay use the term optical screws as well, most mysterious, as are most US thread systems anyway....completely non-standard.(we pre-dated the US ones, so protectionism must have been the reason).

 

 

 

I put this in your other thread - they may mean 00-90 screws, which is a very common size in modelling over here (MicroTrains coupler attachment screws for instance). Walthers and HoBits are common suppliers, and Walthers and Kadee make taps. If you aren't in a hurry I could send you some.

 

Adrian

[bertiedog]

The screws are all sorted,(thanks), all smaller sizes are, or were, called Optical Screws. So spares can be sourced more easily.

 

One addition, a funnel base for the smokebox, I noticed that Kemtron used to make a casting for this and the Brass Betsy needs one as the flat bottom fits on to a curve,(it could be filed flat), but the casting or similar would be better. I'll make on from scratch, turning in brass, and then a squash!!

 

The retaining screw goes right through, a long 00-80 !!!

 

[BR60103]

Bertie: Funny for such small screws, but the 00-90, 0-80 and 2-56 screws are in the National Coarse standard.

00-90 are used for Micro-Trains N scale couplings; I think some of their packets contain them. I've used them for emergency repairs on my glasses.

[bertiedog]

Shots of the restored lost wax cast cylinders, which are one piece with the slidebars, and the cleaned and restored Lindsay L-720 motor, now complete with new brushes to suit.

 

The motor needs running in, but so far is very quiet and extremely smooth, which it should be as it is about the best model railway motor design, ever.....Seven pole, skewed overlap poles, star wound, potted windings, ground steel shaft, and oilite bearings, and a good magnet design, not ringfield, but the poles are part of the magnet.

 

The cylinders need retaining bolts in the valve chest covers, and lubricators added to the covers.

 

 

 

[bertiedog]

New gearbox outline to add fully enclosed floating gearbox to the Lindsay Motor, now restored to full operation, same method as Varney Super Pacific, with full springing via coil sprung wires, as per adjustable CSB suspension. Brass Sleeves will be added to axles to take the wire bearing on them.

 

Motor is pivoted at the back of the frame to allow floating. The original gears are accurately made Kemtron gears, very high quality, and will fit the new gearbox.

 

The front axle has an eccentric to provide fully working valve gear rods. This should still work fine with suspension added.

 

A full set of new side rods will be needed, to allow full movement of wheels..

 

[bertiedog]

A quick session on the lathe, and a bar of scrap brass, shows the new gearbox can be machined from the solid, in the milling machine, but the clearances with the valve gear eccentric are awfully tight, but the axle only needs to be able to move about .4mm for the suspension to work.

[bertiedog]

In fact the pivot point of the valve gear rocking arm is in an impossible position, in line with the gear,.....seeming to make the gearbox impossible, but the whole valve gear drive is a floating Y shaped yolk, Great Western making it like that to clear the original gear, so that it may be just possible to thin the gearbox walls down and widen the yoke to keep both the working valve gear and the new enclosed gearbox.

 

A really very tight fit indeed, but the suspension is worth the trouble to have it fitted with a 280 locomotive.

 

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

From the original instruction sheet, the valve gear drive via the brass Yolk, which pivots on the valve rocking shafts, resting on the eccentric, with a leaf spring to keep it in contact.

The Y shape is to clear the gear, so widening it should clear the gearbox, and still allow the valves to move correctly.

 

This was very advanced design for the 1940's modelling scene.

 

[bertiedog]

The tender chassis casting, with the only replacement parts needed so far, two insulated bushes for the bolster centres. Great Western insulted them from the frames giving isolation, very modern way, unlike most US makers who just used the tender as earth return, forcing the use of insulated coupler boxes.

 

The bushes are turned from Tufnol SRB plastic, easy to machine and very tough. I have made them slightly thicker and with bigger pads, to raise the body to scale height, and stabilise the sprung bogies, Central Valley brand Fox fully sprung types.

 

Stephen

[bertiedog]

 

Brass Betsy tender underside restored, oddly no nuts are supplied for any of the bolts, they intended them to screw into tapped holes, and this included the bogie pivots, but any slack at all would mean no electrical connection, and an original reported complaint was electrical unreliability, which plainly came from using insulted pivot bushes and no springing to keep the bolt head in contact. Fortunately 2mm nuts fit the 0-56 bolts well, almost the same pitch.

 

 

The stamped and coined brass body screwed into place on the lost wax cast brass tender footplate base, to trim and to check the fit, the flared tender back has to be soldered on, and filed to shape.

 

There are tender steps in lost wax brass to add to the floor at the front, which restrict the Fox bogies in the suggested position, they may have to be moved out a bit.

 

There is a tool chest to fit the footplate at the rear, and the water filler to go on top, both nice quality lost wax brass castings.

 

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

The brass and other parts are all restored to as new, and a few details being added before test assembly to try it out with the Lindsay motor, which may be retained, despite sticking out into the cab entrance at the back. Crew will have to cover the view.

 

 

Springing may be too awkward, space is very tight, so I am trying it without any at first, to see if it really needs it. It will need a bit of testing to cure the original binding and accuracy problems built in to the design, later cured by Kemtron on the version that they marketed. It may require new side rods to be made.

 

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

Near disaster, the cardboard box, which is after all 60 years old, fell apart at one end, allowing all the Brass Betsy parts, the small screws and fine parts on to the floor.

 

Fortunately I had carefully inventoried all the parts and knew what to look for, but it took about 2 hours to find everything from the carpet. Some parts were steel and had remained with the motor, and I had stored a new magnet in the box as well, which caught others.

 

Now all transferred to a stout tin!!

 

 

This has brought to a head finding and fitting one or two missing screws and re- tapping some items to take BA sizes rather then US screws, which are unobtainable in the UK, or very costly to get from the States.

 

The crankpins were already on the list, one missing and the heads of the hex brass bolts are a bit battered.

 

It needs 2mm hex brass bar stock, which I have sourced from Folkstone Model Engineering supplies, (on the net), who appear to be one of the few suppliers of this small brass hex stock bar. It used to be available from clockmaking suppliers, but not these days. They supply 2mm 2.5mm, 3mm etc. useful for bolt making, in 300mm lengths.

 

Bolts can be made from 2mm hex stock bar in the 10, 12, 14, 16BA range and small metric from 1.7mm downwards.

 

The crankpins have to have a un-threaded shank for the side rods bearings, and the wheel re tapped to 12 BA, with especially thin heads on the lead crankpins for clearance, and double height for the coupling and connecting rod main bearings. The shank should be about 1.6mm diameter with threaded area 12 BA to fit into the wheel boss.

 

There are some handrail knobs already missing before the drop, so a pack of knobs by Gibson will be used instead, they are a bit finer than the originals.

 

It will need these small screws made in my Lorch collet lathe, they are too small to even grip in larger chucks.

 

Stephen.

[highpeak]

Near disaster, the cardboard box, which is after all 60 years old, fell apart at one end, allowing all the Brass Betsy parts, the small screws and fine parts on to the floor.

Stephen, with all the incredible work you are doing to restore these old models, the least you could do is get harvesting some trees to produce a new cardboard box!

[bertiedog]

Picking up the work again on this little loco, a member passed on an enquiry about the instructions, as they had bought a part complete one on US Ebay. I have supplied all the extant information I have in the kit, and it reminded me to get on and finish the 280 Brass Betsy locomotive to fully running order

 

I have got spare screws now, Proops (on the net) do packs of assorted optical and other thread small crews, that fit fine for most items.

 

The motor is all restored and tested. I am not doing the full springing, I will get it running normally first, and alter later on. No gearbox, as it interferes with the working valve gear too much.

 

The brass parts are being cleaned in stripper and mild acetic acid to get them ready for soldering over the weekend, and then a session with detailing with Kemtron lost wax castings and equivalent vintage lost wax castings I have gathered up in the last year, injectors, clacks, pipes, and valves, plus brake cylinders and brake shoes.

 

I have found out Robert Lindsay was the main designer on the kit, he supplied the motor, and the castings, made by Kemtron for Lindsay, and sourced the screws etc., for the kit. His untimely death led to the suspension of further designs by Great Western, and then purchase of the stock of parts etc by Kemtron in about 1952

 

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

Some nice extra detailing parts for the Brass Betsy consolidation Locomotive, via Ebay US, lost wax castings, old stock clearance parts from Wiseman in the States, the correct loco brake cylinders small size, the tender brake cylinders with rods and piping, as a unit, and a lost wax cast brass engineer figure. The Tender brake unit is a particularly nice casting, well detailed and exactly correct for the Brass Betsy tender..

 

 

He can just fit beside the motor in the cab. Nice to find a brass figure rather than whitemetal or plastic.

 

The lost wax cast brass brake parts are Kemtron or Korean pattern clearance items, not quite as vintage as the loco, but correct patterns to the Kemtron Catalogue for 1953.

Stephen.