Cambrian locomotive drawings

[NCB]

Something those interested in Cambrian locomotives may be interested in; the HMRS have digitised the following drawings for me, so these are now available to order:

 

25455    0-6-0 small goods (Queen class rebuilt)

 

25458    4-4-0 small bogie passenger 5'6" wheels (Beaconsfield class)

 

25461   1200 gallon 4-wheel tender

 

25462    1700 gallon 6-wheel tender

 

26238    2-4-0 small passenger (Albion class)

 

Think I have the classes right.

 

The first four are 14mm/ft G.A. drawings prepared by Mike Lloyd from works originals, and are nice and clear. The fifth is an original works drawing, of the Albion class in original condition, so of limited use if you're interested in rebuilt condition like me. I ordered A2 sized drawings which are fine, works out at £6.50 per drawing for non-HMRS members including p&p, with a p&p reduction for multiple drawings.

 

Finally, a question; does anybody know of a decent drawing of a rebuilt Albion, or indeed any other Cambrian locomotive drawings?  The HMRS has a few, not yet digitised. The WRRC has a Mike Lloyd drawing, again good, of a Large Sharps 4-4-0. The NRM has a works drawing of Aston's 0-6-0, which I have, and a 0-4-4T, which I haven't (said to be poor condition).

[ChrisN]

Something those interested in Cambrian locomotives may be interested in; the HMRS have digitised the following drawings for me, so these are now available to order:

 

25455    0-6-0 small goods (Queen class rebuilt)

 

25458    4-4-0 small bogie passenger 5'6" wheels (Beaconsfield class)

 

25461   1200 gallon 4-wheel tender

 

25462    1700 gallon 6-wheel tender

 

26238    2-4-0 small passenger (Albion class)

 

Think I have the classes right.

 

The first four are 14mm/ft G.A. drawings prepared by Mike Lloyd from works originals, and are nice and clear. The fifth is an original works drawing, of the Albion class in original condition, so of limited use if you're interested in rebuilt condition like me. I ordered A2 sized drawings which are fine, works out at £6.50 per drawing for non-HMRS members including p&p, with a p&p reduction for multiple drawings.

 

Finally, a question; does anybody know of a decent drawing of a rebuilt Albion, or indeed any other Cambrian locomotive drawings?  The HMRS has a few, not yet digitised. The WRRC has a Mike Lloyd drawing, again good, of a Large Sharps 4-4-0. The NRM has a works drawing of Aston's 0-6-0, which I have, and a 0-4-4T, which I haven't (said to be poor condition).

 

I am not sure if you would class it as decent but there is an outline drawing of the Volunteer class in 'A New History of the Cambrian Railways'.

[NCB]

I am not sure if you would class it as decent but there is an outline drawing of the Volunteer class in 'A New History of the Cambrian Railways'.

So there is! Not really my era. There's a drawing of a 2-4-0 Sharps in Oakwood's Furness Railway Locomotives and Rolling Stock which looks suspiciously like a Cambrian Albion, but again it's in its original form, whereas I'm interested in 1900-1910, well and truly after the Aston rebuilds.

 

W. Hardin Osborn did a number of Cambrian/Furness drawings for the Modeller. However, these seem to be more sketches than engineering drawings and I wouldn't rely on them too much; I looked at the Large Sharps 4-4-0 when I started on my 00 model and certain bits were way out, such as a footplate much too narrow.

 

Think I'll have an ask on the WRRC site.

 

Nigel

[MarcD]

So there is! Not really my era. There's a drawing of a 2-4-0 Sharps in Oakwood's Furness Railway Locomotives and Rolling Stock which looks suspiciously like a Cambrian Albion, but again it's in its original form, whereas I'm interested in 1900-1910, well and truly after the Aston rebuilds.

 

W. Hardin Osborn did a number of Cambrian/Furness drawings for the Modeller. However, these seem to be more sketches than engineering drawings and I wouldn't rely on them too much; I looked at the Large Sharps 4-4-0 when I started on my 00 model and certain bits were way out, such as a footplate much too narrow.

 

Think I'll have an ask on the WRRC site.

 

Nigel

Word from the wise Rush and Osborne drawings are more of a piece of art than an engineering drawing.

In designing our 7mm sharp Stewart range of locos, that the first ones should be ready in September, we actually went back to first principles. The works GAs and photographs. It's taken 3 years of work to sort things out. The drawings published from rush and Osborne bear only a passing resemblance to the original locos.

On the 0-6-0 loco there are 7 different boilers, 3 different tenders, 7 different cabs and 5 different footplates.

The differences in the 2-4-0 are less but they are there. 3 cabs, 3 boilers 3 tenders and 2 footplates. There are also to tank rebuilds one Cambrian and the other Furness/Manchester and Milford.

Most of these variations have to be scaled off photos as the works GAs don't even match.

 

Marc

[ChrisN]

So there is! Not really my era. There's a drawing of a 2-4-0 Sharps in Oakwood's Furness Railway Locomotives and Rolling Stock which looks suspiciously like a Cambrian Albion, but again it's in its original form, whereas I'm interested in 1900-1910, well and truly after the Aston rebuilds.

 

W. Hardin Osborn did a number of Cambrian/Furness drawings for the Modeller. However, these seem to be more sketches than engineering drawings and I wouldn't rely on them too much; I looked at the Large Sharps 4-4-0 when I started on my 00 model and certain bits were way out, such as a footplate much too narrow.

 

Think I'll have an ask on the WRRC site.

 

Nigel

 

Nigel,

I was about to say that there must be some somewhere as people are making loco models but Marc's reply is probably more helpful.

 

The Volunteer is just within my time period as they were on the 'reserve'(?) list in 1895.  If I could find a suitable R-T-R chassis, 7ft 3" between the driving wheels I would have a go at one.

[corneliuslundie]

The WRRC has quite a lot of Mike Lloyd drawings of Cambrian subjects which will eventually be used in a book similar to the Rhymney drawings book published a few years ago and the Barry railway drawings book now in preparation. However, the Cambrian volume(s) is/are some way off as there is a queue of titles to be done first.

I don't know what the policy is on making them available at the moment, or even if it is practicable.

Jonathan

[NCB]

The WRRC has quite a lot of Mike Lloyd drawings of Cambrian subjects which will eventually be used in a book similar to the Rhymney drawings book published a few years ago and the Barry railway drawings book now in preparation. However, the Cambrian volume(s) is/are some way off as there is a queue of titles to be done first.

I don't know what the policy is on making them available at the moment, or even if it is practicable.

Jonathan

 

Thanks Jonathan. That's useful. I knew WRRC had a drawing of the Aston Large Sharps 4-4-0 because they did a scan for me a few years ago, but at the time couldn't find a reference for any other MML drawings. I assumed they would have most if not all of the other MML drawings, whatever they are; suspect some are the originals of the copies held by the HMRS. I'll have a think about this. The Tanat Valley book has a useful drawing of a rebuilt Seaham.

 

Nigel

[Quarryscapes]

Word from the wise Rush and Osborne drawings are more of a piece of art than an engineering drawing.

In designing our 7mm sharp Stewart range of locos, that the first ones should be ready in September, we actually went back to first principles. The works GAs and photographs. It's taken 3 years of work to sort things out. The drawings published from rush and Osborne bear only a passing resemblance to the original locos.

On the 0-6-0 loco there are 7 different boilers, 3 different tenders, 7 different cabs and 5 different footplates.

The differences in the 2-4-0 are less but they are there. 3 cabs, 3 boilers 3 tenders and 2 footplates. There are also to tank rebuilds one Cambrian and the other Furness/Manchester and Milford.

Most of these variations have to be scaled off photos as the works GAs don't even match.

 

Marc

 

There are 5 tenders if you include the 6 wheeled ones which they also ran with, the M&M 2-4-2Ts were always tanks, and are both to different design. The 2-4-0s were the same as the Cambrian Albions.

 

Have you got any idea of the cost of the kit yet? I'm giving serious thought to moving up to 7mm scale where spindly Victorian locomotives such as these are much more viable than as fragile 4mm items. 

 

These are just some of the differences I curated from photos of the 0-6-0s:

 

http://coastlinemodels.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Cambrian-Sharp-Stewarts.pdf

 

There is also a drawing of an 0-4-2 in Boyd's book on the Wrexham Mold & Connahs Quay line  which is stated as being based on an original SS drawing, would be good to know what happened to that original. 

[MarcD]

We are still working on the design, I have just found a that looks like its going to fit. So we should have a good idea when we work out what materials the various parts are going to be made from. The 2-4-2T and the 2-4-0T are the most developed so they will be first and look like the kits will be somewhere around the £250 mark the 2-4-0 and 0-6-0 will be probably somewhere around the £325 mark.

 

I will have an other look at the tenders.

 

Marc

[NCB]

There are 5 tenders if you include the 6 wheeled ones which they also ran with, the M&M 2-4-2Ts were always tanks, and are both to different design. The 2-4-0s were the same as the Cambrian Albions.

 

Have you got any idea of the cost of the kit yet? I'm giving serious thought to moving up to 7mm scale where spindly Victorian locomotives such as these are much more viable than as fragile 4mm items. 

 

These are just some of the differences I curated from photos of the 0-6-0s:

 

http://coastlinemodels.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Cambrian-Sharp-Stewarts.pdf

 

There is also a drawing of an 0-4-2 in Boyd's book on the Wrexham Mold & Connahs Quay line  which is stated as being based on an original SS drawing, would be good to know what happened to that original. 

 

Useful list that.

 

Also useful info about the M&M 2-4-0's. I was looking at a pic of one very recently and thought it looked like a Cambrian one.

 

I suspect I may also end up scaling things from photos.

 

My Cambrian interests are roughly in the 1904 - 1910 period so it's a question of working out what state the things were in then. I get the impression that the boiler was either a bit bigger or pitched a bit higher.

 

Fragile 4mm items? Try 3mm! It all depends on what sort of level of detail you want to incorporate. I dabbled in 7mm about 20 years ago, liked it for building models, but not for the space it took up. Hence my switch to 3mm.

 

Nigel

[Donw]

I came across this looking for some info on an Aston 0-6-0. The Albion Class had an original half height roofless cab. Later they built a top to go on it but the original beading around the top of the old cab was still there. I have a 14mm:1Ft drawing of an Albion class which the late Peter Korrison got through a friend seeing as I have no rights to it  I am unwilling to publish it. I suspect the WRRC have a copy. There was a Mike Lloyd drawing of a Sharp Stewart 0-6-0 in Model Railways Illustrated ( Ian Rice was editor) and I have seen it elsewhere. I also have some a part built class 73 with some bit of drawing (some bits are stuck onto pieces of brass.) which I think was a Mike Lloyd drawing.

 

Don  

[NCB]

43 minutes ago, Donw said:

I came across this looking for some info on an Aston 0-6-0. The Albion Class had an original half height roofless cab. Later they built a top to go on it but the original beading around the top of the old cab was still there. I have a 14mm:1Ft drawing of an Albion class which the late Peter Korrison got through a friend seeing as I have no rights to it  I am unwilling to publish it. I suspect the WRRC have a copy. There was a Mike Lloyd drawing of a Sharp Stewart 0-6-0 in Model Railways Illustrated ( Ian Rice was editor) and I have seen it elsewhere. I also have some a part built class 73 with some bit of drawing (some bits are stuck onto pieces of brass.) which I think was a Mike Lloyd drawing.

 

Don  

 

Don

 

I also managed to get a copy of a Mike Lloyd 14mm:1ft drawing of an Albion, and very useful it is too. Also obtained in a round about way so won't publish it. The WRRC drawings will be a boon when they get around to it; I'd be surprised if they didn't have access to the original. I was going to do my own etchings for the body and chassis, but Sparkshot on shapeways did a 3mm/ft print for me of his Albion body, so for the moment I've just done the chassis; it's now running, so will now finish off the body.

 

I've a Neilson works drawing of an Aston 0-6-0, obtained from the NRM OPC collection; think the number is 11057.

 

Nigel

[NCB]

Just checked with the HMRS. They have 3 drawings of the Aston 0-6-0, but I think they're all works drawing, even though 2 are from their Mike Lloyd collection.

Nigel

[Timber]

hello - this thread is from a couple of years back but I am interested in following up.  I am building an Albion in S scale....using the HMRS drawing 26238.  I am not an expert in railway history or prototype matters but I have a question for those that may know.

 

When the loco was rebuilt presumably the boiler diameter and general dimensions stayed the same....is this a reasonable assumption?  Actually the loco I want to build is a B&M USK that I am told is the same as the albion - i am trying to build one in later life when it may have had a rebuild.....or two.

 

At some point I want to share the etched model with some Cambrian S Scale modellers...who will probably want a later model.  However, I am begining to lose confidence in the accuracy of the model verses the later rebuilds.....someone gave me a drawing that they had got from someehere of an Albion and the boiler appears to be larger than the 26238 drawing possibly 4'6" verses the 4' on my drawing.  

 

Any guidance  on the type of changes that were applied in the rebuilds would be a help - thank you.

Edited July 26, 2020 by Timber

[Donw]

2 hours ago, Timber said:

hello - this thread is from a couple of years back but I am interested in following up.  I am building an Albion in S scale....using the HMRS drawing 26238.  I am not an expert in railway history or prototype matters but I have a question for those that may know.

 

When the loco was rebuilt presumably the boiler diameter and general dimensions stayed the same....is this a reasonable assumption?  Actually the loco I want to build is a B&M USK that I am told is the same as the albion - i am trying to build one in later life when it may have had a rebuild.....or two.

 

Also want to share the model with some Cambrian S Scale modellers....it is an etch that I have made.  But I am begining to loser confidence in the accuracy of the model verses the later rebuilds.....someone gave me a drawing that they had got from someehere of an Albion and the boiler appears to be larger than the 26238 drawing.  

 

I have a drawing of one in the later condition about 14mm:1ft If i can lay my hands on it I will see what diameter that has. I do know that the later cab was not totally new but the old one extended upwards it has the beading which was atop the original still showing halfway up the Cab sides. The question then arises of the drawings provenance. 

 

Don

[Timber]

Thanks Don....layouts look great!  Interesting that the Cab was extended - I can add this detail.

[corneliuslundie]

The one early class for which I have not yet found a drawing is the Mixed Passenger 0-4-2 class built by Sharp, Stewart. This is the class ordered by Savin and later split largely between the Cambrian and the B&M. Any pointers to a drawing would be very gratefully received, as it is the only loco drawing I need for part 1 of the WRRC Cambrian set, the others having been identified even if not yet obtained.

Carriages and wagon drawings are another matter!

Jonathan.

[ChrisN]

Jonathan,

As you know there is a side on diagram of one in 'A New Cambrian History'.  I assume the author does not know of a GA drawing or similar?

 

Just a quick Google brings up that drawings are at the NRM and possibly Glasgow University.  

 

The Thetford and Watton Railway had one, (similar), so there might be a GER drawing of it.

 

Then there might be one in Grace's Guide.

 

Sorry, if this is teaching Granny to suck eggs and not very useful.

[corneliuslundie]

No, it is very useful. I have found the NRM collections very difficult to penetrate. I have the new history but as you say that is only a simple diagram.

I hadn't thought of Grace's Guide for drawings though it is a very useful resource.

The whole thing is pretty well on hold at the moment as I am waiting for some drawings from the HMRS but they do not currently have access to the Butterley building except for essential caretaking, the whole MRT site being closed. So my hoped-for 2021 publication date for the first part is looking increasingly unlikely.

Jonathan

[NCB]

On 25/07/2020 at 21:01, Timber said:

hello - this thread is from a couple of years back but I am interested in following up.  I am building an Albion in S scale....using the HMRS drawing 26238.  I am not an expert in railway history or prototype matters but I have a question for those that may know.

 

When the loco was rebuilt presumably the boiler diameter and general dimensions stayed the same....is this a reasonable assumption?  Actually the loco I want to build is a B&M USK that I am told is the same as the albion - i am trying to build one in later life when it may have had a rebuild.....or two.

 

At some point I want to share the etched model with some Cambrian S Scale modellers...who will probably want a later model.  However, I am begining to lose confidence in the accuracy of the model verses the later rebuilds.....someone gave me a drawing that they had got from someehere of an Albion and the boiler appears to be larger than the 26238 drawing possibly 4'6" verses the 4' on my drawing.  

 

Any guidance  on the type of changes that were applied in the rebuilds would be a help - thank you.

 

Aston began rebuilding the older Sharp Stewarts around 1890 (1888?) and onwards, with new boilers of higher pressure, and various other details such as different (Ross-pop?) safety valves. I'm pretty sure the boilers were larger and pitched higher. If you look at pages 48-40 of C C Green's Cambrian Railways you can compare old and new versions of the Queen class 0-6-0s, and the difference is very obvious.

 

On the 14mm/ft Mike Lloyd drawing of an Albion, circa 1910, the boiler is 65mm diameter and there is about 5.5mm of daylight under the boiler.

 

As each company rebuilt their own Albions (and other Sharp Stewarts), I think you'll find that differences crept it. On the Cambrian the first full cab acquired by the Sharp Stewarts was smaller than that Aston put on his rebuilds.

 

Nigel

[MarcD]

Having spent some time trying to develop a 0-6-0 kit it got to the point that there were about 70 different versions by the time tenders were added to the mix. This is because the standard design could be adapted to the customer's needs and then there is the fact that the standard design changes over time and then indervidual rebuilds. 

It was a kit with a small market and one kit would not be able to cover everything that people wanted so a non starter as if I produced a Cambrian one the Furness and North Staffordshire modellers would need a variant and it would go on and on so I dropped it.

Marc

[NCB]

On 25/07/2020 at 23:14, Donw said:

 

I have a drawing of one in the later condition about 14mm:1ft If i can lay my hands on it I will see what diameter that has. I do know that the later cab was not totally new but the old one extended upwards it has the beading which was atop the original still showing halfway up the Cab sides. The question then arises of the drawings provenance. 

 

Don

 

Depends what you call the cab. All the Sharp Stewart tender engines were built with a sort of lower cab (sides only) over the rear wheels, like a sort of rectangular splasher. This had a flat top. All attempts at a cab were built on top of the flat top and slightly inboard of the "splasher" sides; the latter remained unaltered, including the beading along the top. So initially there was just a weatherboard, then maybe a wooden half-cab, then a metal all-over cab, then a slightly larger metal all-over cab when reboilered.

 

Nigel

[NCB]

Apart from boiler changes and cabs, there were quite a few other changes. Splashers originally had an open bit but these tended to be filled in. Chimneys, domes and safety valves changed. Original Sharpies usually had an open ares on the footplate between the front buffer beam and the smokebox; this tended to get filled in. Front bogie wheels or pony trucks had a sort of splasher over them but in later life this disappeared. Engines tended to acquire brakes! Also sanding gear.

 

You could say that the basic origins of the engine remained obvious but any of the details were liable to be altered.

 

Sparkshot Custom Creations has done a number of Cambrian and Furness locomotives on Shapeways and offers a load of variations, but even then doesn't cover all of them.

 

I reckon the best way of approaching it is to deal with individual engines of individual companies at a particular period of their existance. I'm building Cambrian stuff for the 1900-1910 period.

Edited August 8, 2020 by NCB

[Timber]

thanks for everyones help.  Drawing 26238 is undoubtably an albion class drawing but there is something different between the drawing and early pictures on the albion class locomotive.  The raised backend of the boiler to house the smokebox is only ~ two inches increase in radius than the main boiler.....but if you look at early photos the difference appears to be far greater.... probably 4 inches....this feature really defines part of the character of the locomotive so it is important.

 

In the book "a pictorial record of GW absorbed engines" there is a diagram (page 60) that the GWR produced of the aquired locomotive or one of them......once again the boiler profile is more aligned to early photos than drawing 26238.

 

We will probably never know but when I produced my revised model to the exect scale of drawing 26238 it did not look right....so i will change to improve the fit with the photos.......

 

once again thanks for the collaberation.

[NCB]

On Mike Lloyds 14mm/ft drawing the difference is about 4mm, which scales to about 3.5".

 

26238 is a General Arrangement drawing intended to show how things fit together; the accurate stuff is usually done on more detailed engineering drawings. So it's quite possible that it's not accurate. The firebox and boiler casings seem to be drawn in very faintly, as it was the stuff inside them which mattered.

 

Nigel