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Don Young George




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#1 Killian keane

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 12:45

Just interested to hear any opinions on the 3 1/2" Don Young "George", I've never seen a complete example so photos welcome! :D

Edited by Killian keane, 20 May 2017 - 12:46 .


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#2 mswjr

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 21:19

I have been model engineering for years,and i do not remember seeing one of these,But i model standard gauge,so narrow gauge modellers might come along and say different ,

       What i will say is,if you are thinking of modelling an engine,then do a more well known one as it will be easier getting castings etc, if you want to see a george,Then look

             at STATION ROAD STEAM in the archive section,There may be one on that.



#3 Killian keane

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 22:46

Thats just it, I've been through their archive but the closest to a complete one I saw was a part built chassis, another less advanced chassis sold on evilbay a few weeks ago, as for castings, reeves do them for a George so I should be ok, which is another thing, arent reeves selling off all their master patterns for boilers? This worries me...

Edited by Killian keane, 20 May 2017 - 22:48 .


#4 mswjr

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Posted 21 May 2017 - 21:03

I would say,if station road steam have had none on there archive page,and ive not seen one in all the years that i have been doing model engineering,Then they are rare,

            I do not know why,but if you are a beginner in the hobby,I would shy away from this one and build a better known one,or you could try asking on a model engineering forum, Try Model engineering clearing house  (MECH)  this one is quite good,also reeves are very expensive,and are as you say selling bits off,this is another reason to look at a more popular design 

             Hope this helps a little Garry


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#5 Killian keane

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Posted 21 May 2017 - 21:36

You are completely right of course, a tich say, would be a far safer choice for availability of spares etc, was just interested to see what a George looked like, judging by the smokebox door casting, they aren't exactly like the ffestiniog Englands as built, more of a stylised version really

#6 peach james

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 01:52

Ok, if it is going to be your first engine, then I would, to some extent, agree that a well proven design is the one to go with. That being said, the Don Young designs appear to have been better designed than some. If I was going to start any engine, I would get the castings fairly early on in the process, and bore cylinders early on too, because as far as castings go, they are likely the hardest part. If you are going to make your own boiler, then it doesn't matter what the supply is like. If you are going to buy in a completed boiler, then expect a 18 month wait or so. So plan that into your build schedule.

Again, dad and I agree, if you are new to model engineering, make a 3/4 x3/4 stationary engine first, then start onto the engine.

James

#7 Killian keane

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 05:57

I'm not looking to build one (yet anyway) just interested to see what theyre like, I am preoccupied by a restoration project at the present moment

#8 mswjr

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 19:45

also,I would say stay away from tich,it is too small when you want to drive it,and it is not for a beginner,some parts are quite difficult, when you get around to it,i would build something

         like scamp an 0-4-0 in 5 inch gauge,it is small enough to build and handle but will pull you along quite well,and after your hardwork in building it will be worth it.


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#9 Killian keane

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 21:35

Whilst we're here, does anybody have thoughts on an LBSC "Lion"? I know the gab valve gear is shall we say a little awkward, but I could live with that

#10 mswjr

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Posted 23 May 2017 - 20:33

Now your talking,Yes it is a proven loco,very nice looking and will pull you and is small enough handle,There is a site on line,Can not remember what it is called,

           I shall have alook later and see if i can find it,It has lots of models on it all lion,in all the gauges,and has hints and tips of the build,and i know a lot of people who built one as a first project,

              also lots of people on M,E,C,H will help you.


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#11 mswjr

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Posted 23 May 2017 - 20:36

This is the site, Think it is mostly 7,1/4,but the 5 inch is well proven ,

 

Lion Locomotive
www.lionlocomotive.co.uk/
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#12 peach james

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Posted 25 May 2017 - 01:14

I would certainly agree about Tich - you are far better to build a Juliette or Rob Roy in 3.5" (or Raritan, if North American is your thing), as the key limit is firebox size.  Anything much smaller than about 10" of grate will cause you far more aggro than engines of around that size.  While 5"/passenger seems about right to my mind, the first hump is about 10" to make an engine that is relatively easy to fire.  Otherwise, you will end up with an engine that needs firing on the run,  on anything other than a circle of 30' radius.  (again, these are my opinions, but I have driven a few different engines)

 

James


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#13 Killian keane

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Posted 25 May 2017 - 11:38

I would certainly agree about Tich - you are far better to build a Juliette or Rob Roy in 3.5" (or Raritan, if North American is your thing), as the key limit is firebox size. Anything much smaller than about 10" of grate will cause you far more aggro than engines of around that size. While 5"/passenger seems about right to my mind, the first hump is about 10" to make an engine that is relatively easy to fire. Otherwise, you will end up with an engine that needs firing on the run, on anything other than a circle of 30' radius. (again, these are my opinions, but I have driven a few different engines)

James

North American isn't my cup of tea! :D I think a Lion or a Jenny Lind in 5" is probably what I'll build whenever I get round to it, the latter is surprisingly under-modelled considering it seems a fairly straightforward, extremely attractive design

Edited by Killian keane, 25 May 2017 - 14:49 .

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#14 Kempenfelt

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 14:03

Killian,

 

Gary and James have already provided some sound advice and I can echo their comments. I've spent all my life growing up with model engineering and its a fantastic and rewarding hobby, well worth getting into.

 

I think I've seen a completed George albeit some time ago, but they are indeed rare. I seen a few more part built, including the 2 you've already referred too. I currently own 5 Don Young models and have driven a lot more. They are certainly IMHO appear to be better designed than a lot of the Martin Evans designs and do generally steam very well. I think a model of on of the FR George England loco's would be lovely, although I'd probably prefer one in the more modern guise as per Palmerston.

 

With regards to a first model, I would strongly suggest building something which interests you even if it is the slightly more complicated option, however for obvious reasons don't go setting your heart on a 4 cylinder compound! I was encouraged to go down the small stationary route, but unfortunately they've never done anything for me and I really struggled to progress the project. This is in no way dismissing James's comment, just emphasising the need to find something that you're going to want to build. Instead of continuing the uninspiring stationary engine, I found myself really drawn to 5" gauge ground level running and started building scale wagons. I found they are a good project to make noticeable progress in a short space of time, don't require a great deal of prerequisite skill or ability (as long as you're methodical and take your time) and something I'm really proud of.

 

I too would suggest steering you away from building a Tich, they're are actually still pretty complicated to build yet too small to actually run.

 

I am now pretty involved with helping out a friends business www.steamworkshop.co.uk and another suggestion I would make is to seriously consider a part-build or a restoration project. You need to make sure that the work to date is generally good, but they do provide extremely good value for money when compared to buying the castings and raw materials, or a finished running locomotive. Simon or myself would be quite happy to advise on projects there are in stock, after all we're working really hard on building a reputation of a trustworthy, knowledgeable and enthusiastic business, rather than just a shop window. For example there are currently 4 Butch models of various stages of completion that would be worth considering. There's also a 3 1/2" gauge Lion as an almost air running, finished chassis, however this may be a bit too small.

 

If you do indeed want to go down the Lion route, then getting in touch with the OLCO group would be well worth doing. Link already provided by Gary above.

 

Good luck with whatever path you choose.

 

Best Wishes

 

Paul


Edited by Kempenfelt, 01 June 2017 - 14:11 .

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#15 Killian keane

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 14:43

Thank you Paul, I am looking out for a restoration job/ part built loco, indeed I was looking at that lion chassis in 3 1/2" gauge, as for the stationary engine, well I haven't built one as such but recently took delivery of an elderly mill engine so I'm fairly familiar with the workings of such a machine, some day I would like to do a george england in its original guise, but that will have to wait (I have no milling machine nor lathe), until I find something I'm kept occupied by an ancient 2-4-0 in 2 5/8" gauge that had most parts missing upon arrival
Cheers
Killian

#16 Killian keane

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Posted 29 July 2017 - 14:16

Another option has just come to mind, an LBSC Rainhill in 5" gauge, are castings available for 3.5" locos in 5"? I note that the price of a ful set of george castings is down to £600

Edited by Killian keane, 29 July 2017 - 14:26 .


#17 Holmside

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Posted 29 July 2017 - 21:40

My experience is that by far the hardest part of building a loco is producing the necessary infastructure. That is, preparing the ground, breaking up the hardcore upon which to lay the concrete base ( with proper damp-proof membrane), on which the ( suitably damp-proofed and electrified) shed stands and in which the machine tools required to actually build the loco are to be housed. Please, please, please do not underestimate the effort and planning required for this aspect: to skimp on it is to invite recurring difficulty later.
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#18 Giles

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 09:22

The other thing I would (contravertially) throw into the mix, is that building a large loco (I mean a 7,25 or 10.25, not a Pacific or anything!) is not necessarily harder or massively expensive that a 5" loco, and certainly no more complex. Indeed, things can get simpler, depending on your approach. In the bigger sizes we tend to use ball valves for regulators- and very good they are too! Laser cutting frames is economical and accurate. You do need an estate car or a trailer to move the locos about - depending on the size - but it tends not to be a big deal. I often hear about lifting being a problem - but lifting small locos - unless they are small - is often best avoided. Big ones you just roll everywhere.

LBSC et al produced locos like Tich, Juliet, and Rob-Roy to suit the small lathes (in particular) and other tools that were available at the time. Now of course we are blessed with the availability of much larger and more capable machines for a very low (relative) price frome companies such as Warco and Chester to name but two... These will happily swing large wheels, or enable the boring of decent size cylinders.


To be honest, when I was young, i never thought in my wildest dreams that I could make a large loco, as it was just too daunting - but actually, when I started, i couldn't, but when I finished, i could.....

I still doubt my ability to make some of these beautiful little things you see running round most ME society tracks - many are real works of art - but I can build a work-horse loco

36417618740_84264aa494_k.jpgAlice by giles favell, on Flickr

Edited by Giles, 27 August 2017 - 09:25 .

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#19 Killian keane

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 10:08

That is a really nice loco, clicked like, but would also click 'craftsmanship/clever', I would love to build something similar in one of the large scales in the future, at that moment though I'm thinking of a 5" Jenny Lind, I don't suppose anyone here knows how to contact David Roberts who did one in model engineer 10 years ago?
Edit: this would make a fine loco in 7 1/4" or 10 1/4" gauge methinks

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Edited by Killian keane, 27 August 2017 - 10:29 .


#20 dajt

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 03:08

Someone mentioned castings above. If possible I'd not buy a full casting set, but only the really tricky things to fabricate like cylinders and wheels. I've machined eccentric straps from castings for two locos and I'm going to make them from cast iron bar in future as I think cleaning up castings, figuring out datum points on them, figuring how to hold them, etc is probably more difficult than just making the part from stock. Also stuff like 'axle box sticks'. If a bar of cast iron is cheaper just use that with bronze bushes in them, and horn guides - perfectly good ones can be made from steel. A lot of UK locos seem to have a ton of castings, most of which don't seem necessary.



#21 Holmside

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Posted 29 August 2017 - 20:30

Giles wrote:

'building a large loco (I mean a 7,25 or 10.25, not a Pacific or anything!) is not necessarily harder or massively expensive that a 5" loco'

Despite the risk of being labelled 'negative' (see previous post concerning the importance of getting the infrastructure properly established before starting to commence loco construction), I feel it necessary to point out that this statement is misleading for the beginner. The reason I think this is because locomotives in the larger scales are, self evidently, lager and heavier. Thus, during construction it is no trivial matter to move larger locomotives about and then hold them in the required position so as to fit additional components or modify existing ones 'in situ' (also, being able to 'fit to job' is almost always a necessary requirement during construction. The beginner will need to factor-in to his decisions the by no means insignificant task of designing and building a rotatable carrying cradle in which the partially constructed loco can be securely located. And the whole to be carried on a substantial bench to permit working at a comfortable height for prolonged periods. Though tempting as an 'ad-hoc' solution to this problem, jacking the loco up on blocks of wood will not do and is potentially dangerous for the bulder as well as for the loco under construction should the whole become unstable when forces are being applied to the loco in order to move it a little or simply to tighten bolts. This matter also has implications for the infrastructure question: would you have space necessary for the cradle and bench ? Sorry to be an old misery guts about this.
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#22 Holmside

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Posted 29 August 2017 - 20:52

And don't get me started on the possible need to design and build a suitable means of transporting larger locos (from the workshop/place of storage to the means of transport in order to take it to the intended running track) if a pump-up truck of suitable size/capacity cannot be procured. Please be aware that even the smallest 7 1/4" gauge locos are a two-man lift when completed. And have you got the necessary space to store such a means of transportation ? That has implications for the infra .. Oh, pipe down Holmside and give us a break !!!
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