RMweb Gold Bucoops Posted May 29, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 29, 2017 (edited) Hi All, I've been a railway fan since essentially birth, with it running in my blood. A distant relative was even station master at Potters Bar once upon a time. My blood runs two colours - Apple Green and Garter Blue - yes I'm an LNER kind of person. Alas being born in the late 70s means I managed to miss mainline steam but that hasn't dampened my spirits. My work keeps me busy. Very busy. But from time to time there are quiet parts and hidden away like I am, I can have a little work area and to help de-stress I've decided to try my hand at some kit building. I have done a couple in the past, about 20 years ago - A J50 kit and a J70 kit. Both whitemetal, both glued together, and both ended up with an AWFUL paint job So - having an interest in East Anglian railways, and having had the opportunity to get up close and personal with the sole surviving BTH Type 1 (Class 15 diesel) years back, recently I came across an un-built Alexander Models kit for one of these - 99% complete. I'm made a small start, mostly with the bogies. It came with a motor but the type doesn't seem to have a good reputation and reading through the great thread on the archive here, I picked up a Mashimo 1024 for it. The intention is to build as preserved whilst at Mangapps - so I guess I could leave the motor out! I've not actually plucked up the courage to try soldering whitemetal yet. In fact that brings me onto kit number 2... My soldering experience is quite good - but only with electronics. So I have an understanding, but limited to the less exotic materials. So starting with a whitemetal kit that went out of production some time back is probably not the best idea. So going back to my LNER roots, I picked up a kit that went out of production 30+ years ago instead - possibly closer to50 years. D'oh. In this case a Jamieson A1/A3 kit. This one appears to be 100% complete but no motor or gearbox and the one recommended is of course rather out of date. There only seems to be limited info on these kits - considered good for their time (that time being somewhere between about 1940 and 1980?!) but lacking detail such as rivets etc. So what to do? Which of the many variants to make? I did consider building Flying Scotsman as presented at the Empire Exhibition - but that would mean finding the right transfers for the coat of arms etc. and also finding the right dome as the kit only appears to have a banjo. I'm also quite tempted to model as originally preserved - I'm one of the haters I'm afraid - I hate FS being in BR colours and those godawful smoke deflectors. I need to double check which chimney the kit has. - I'm sure sourcing modern detail parts would be straightforward enough though? Thirdly would be to build ANY A1/A3 in c1935 condition as one day I would like to build an A4 in Silver Grey and a rake of Silver Jubilee stock. But what also has crossed my mind is this is a vintage kit in its own right - should I just build as it comes and let it be what it is - a good quality but vintage kit (albeit with modern motor) and let historical accuracy slip down the list a bit? So far all I've done with that is stare at it wondering what I've let myself in for, and done a bit of deburring. Any thoughts folks? I'll try and get some pictures sorted during the week but be warned - these aren't going to be fast builds! And may not even be good ones... Edited January 11, 2018 by Bucoops Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevejjjexcov Posted May 29, 2017 Share Posted May 29, 2017 Remember Rule 1 do with it what you will. With a bit of extra work the old Jamison kits build well. If you add modern extra bits you will end up with a good loco. All the best Steve 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 These days the Jamieson kits would be called scratch aids rather than kits. Easy to solder up, rivers can be the resin transfers from Archers, other cast parts can be had from the likes of Southeastern Finecast, in fact a SEF chassis could be far better than the Jamieson one As for soldering whitemetal kits, use low melt solder, 70 or 100 degree. I hold the joint together, plenty of liquid flux, put a small piece of solder in the joint, then quickly touch with a hot soldering iron. I use a 25 watt Antex iron, just in and out as quick as you can. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Bucoops Posted May 30, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted May 30, 2017 Thanks Both, I have been wondering about modern add-ons - especially as the wheels seems to be different diameter (I think it's the flange rather than the rolling contact point) and the con rods appear to be a length of oo gauge rail?! The rest of the motion seems to be quite good but the con rods are definitely strange. I have a 50w temp controlled iron so hoping that will cope with most tasks - not sure about the frames though as it's pretty beefy lumps of brass! A couple of pictures of the Jamieson kit should be attached - doesn't show everything but it does show it was produced pre-decimalisation! 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon A Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 Etched coupling rods can be purchased from Gibson. Look at some photographs of the real loco to see what type of coupling rods would be suitable. Gear box I recommend those produced by High Level kits along with a Mashima motor. Gordon A 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 (edited) As a first attempt I would stick with the chassis, the coupling rods are a bit basic (rail which has been drilled). Either use these or measure the centres and obtain the same from Alan Gibson Workshop. The wheels are the older coarser Romfords, the plain Mazac are not the best and will suffice for the time being. The 50 watt iron is plenty enough for the frames, I use a 25 watt for making the bodies. I would get a rolling chassis first (dont worry about the valve gear at this moment) and obtain a motor. Then you can make a start on the body Send a large stamped self addressed envelope to Southeastern Finecast for the LNER A3 spares list, Dave is so helpful in selling spares http://www.sefinecast.co.uk/PriceList.pdf Good luck and keep us posted Edited May 30, 2017 by hayfield 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 Also try and get a plan, and look at as many of the photos as you can. Just decide how much detail you want to add, might be worth keeping it simple (but not basic) for a first attempt 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Bucoops Posted May 30, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted May 30, 2017 Hi Both, thank you - useful information! I have seen that Mashima motors are on the way out so are getting hard to find. Shame as they seem to be the go-to motor. I guess I'd best sort that part soon. The kit did come with a fairly basic scale diagram which will be useful for positioning the frame spacers for the pony and trailing bogie: If I were to replace the wheels who is the current supplier of choice? Are the more modern Romfords better than these ones? These ones seem to be good condition but Mazac is a material I've come across before - Old Hornby O gauge tinplate wheels that self-scrapped themselves by falling to bits! Had many a happy time playing with my Grandad's trains (purists would HATE how we played with them but the good condition ones stayed in their box, the already battered ones were however fair game... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 I would for the time being use the Romfords, try and replace the Mazac ones via eBay as they come up regularly and far easier to fit than Gibsons, especially if you spend time taking them on and off. At Railex there were plenty of motors about, initially might be worth fitting a Hornby X03 or similar. On the other hand speak with Chris at Highlevel kits, his gearboxes are superb and has motors available. I would initially just get a rolling chassis (you have all the parts) whilst you build the body, leave the valve gear until you have finished fettling the chassis/body 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 No mention so far of what sort of track the A3 model is intended to run on. This is a kit from the 1960s, and was for 'the modeller'. if the frames are assembled on the spacers provided and the driving wheels are all flanged it will most likely be limited to a minimum 36" radius, which 'the modeller' would have known. Dependent on how small a curve radius you might want to use, the frames can be positioned narrower to allow more sideplay. (Ready to run pacifics, all flanged, go round 18" radius, and the current RTR wheels are much as the Romfords you have. The solid cast chassis block no more than 12mm wide to allow sufficient sideplay to take up such small radius curves.) 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 Good point about what type of track, or rather what are the likely radii which it may be used on, that is if any The chassis is a brass bar type not solid, being of 50's/60's vintage it would be of a design for tight curves. All 6 drivers are flanged, not to say flangeless can be obtained if required 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Bucoops Posted May 31, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted May 31, 2017 Thanks again everyone - useful info and tips! Trackwise, I don't have a layout at present and can't forsee having one for quite some time. It would only ever be built from premade pieces though, I don't see me doing any making of my own and tight corners would be likely. I take it Gibson wheels would need quartering? Not afraid to do it, but I guess Romfords would be more correct for the kit, if less realistic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Bucoops Posted May 31, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted May 31, 2017 The other kit is the Alexander Models BTH Type 1 - AKA Class 15. It's missing a couple of bits - most notably the press studs it uses to mount the bogies to the body so at some point I will have to find suitable height replacements for those. I like the idea of using press studs over a different method. Apart from tidying up the castings for the frame and sides of the body, all I've really done with this one so far is worked on the bogies. There was quite a bit of cleanup required on the castings and I still need to very gently open up the non-powered axle holes as the axles are a touch tight. The kit uses self tapping screws to hold the two internal pieces together - which would make the removal of the axles at a later date risky as the threads could easily strip. So I decided to tap them M2.5 and use machine screws with a wavy washer. I used too thick a cutting oil on the first one though and stripped it. It turns out WD40 makes a very good cutting oil for M2.5 in whitemetal... So I've helicoiled the stripped one. I may actually helicoil all of them to improve reliability as it is a very fine thread. I've got a suitable Mashima motor to replace the one that came with the kit, just need to fabricate a suitable mount. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 Rich An ideal project to hone your soldering skills, as the large castings will act as a heat sink The first problem will be to get the motor fitted and gears meshed, I spoke with the chap on the Southeastern Finecast stand who builds the locos at the weekend about a loco using one of their older locos not meshing properly in one of their motor mounts. As the mount is one of their older ones using gears of the same era, the first job is to get the gears meshed and run in before fitting the mount into the chassis, as both bogies have gears might be an idea to fit a DS10 into both. It is a large heavy loco 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Bucoops Posted June 1, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted June 1, 2017 (edited) Hi John, I'm certainly nervous of soldering whitemetal - I have bought a started cruddy kit to play with first! I am waiting for a new toy before I start the chassis of the A1/A3 (still not decided what it will actually be!) - a Poppy's loco builder box. Possibly not needed, but I'd rather ensure the chassis is square and it looks like it will also be useful as a mounting device to hold the thing as well. So I turned my attention to the body. The first instruction is soldering the valance to the footplate - didn't fancy that as a first attempt of brass/nickel silver soldering so instead decided to make a start on the boiler. The front section consists of a washer at the front to give a surface for the smokebox door to affix, the rolled boiler section and then another washer and also a curved "joiner" flange. So I cleaned up the surfaces, plugged the iron in and had a crack. I have two tips - one is a fine point and one is an approx 2.5mm chisel. Lesson learned number one - I need a bigger tip for these thick pieces of brass as it took a very long time to get the washers heated up enough for the solder to flow properly. This meant that I ended up using too much solder but I'm reasonably happy with how this part turned out - I need to clean back the excess and even though it's a no-clean flux I'm going to scrub the residue off as well. Not as much penetration through to inside of the tube than I'd like at the smokebox end but the washer was a VERY good fit and there is some - I also shoved the iron down the inside and tacked it in a couple of places so it's definitely not going anywhere. The only bit I'm fully happy with is the joiner flange that wicked the solder in underneath very well so for the sheet metal parts I'm happy that the chisel tip I have will do the job. Oh - solder wise I used DCC Concepts 179 (why not just call it 180?) and their no-clean flux. I also have two lower temperature solders so can work with these as required if I'm near another joint. Iron was set to 380 initially and then I upped it to 400C when it wasn't heating the material quickly enough. Edited June 1, 2017 by Bucoops 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Bucoops Posted June 1, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted June 1, 2017 Poppy box has arrived - nice bit of kit for the money It's glued and strapped together with elastic bands. Haven't ordered a larger bit for my soldering iron yet though so won't be starting the chassis just yet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Bucoops Posted June 1, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted June 1, 2017 Rich An ideal project to hone your soldering skills, as the large castings will act as a heat sink The first problem will be to get the motor fitted and gears meshed, I spoke with the chap on the Southeastern Finecast stand who builds the locos at the weekend about a loco using one of their older locos not meshing properly in one of their motor mounts. As the mount is one of their older ones using gears of the same era, the first job is to get the gears meshed and run in before fitting the mount into the chassis, as both bogies have gears might be an idea to fit a DS10 into both. It is a large heavy loco Sorry I mean't to say earlier - the axles all have gears, and it even came with 4 worm gears to suit - but the bogie castings are different. I've not examined it closely but I'm not sure a second motor can be fitted. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 (edited) Sorry I mean't to say earlier - the axles all have gears, and it even came with 4 worm gears to suit - but the bogie castings are different. I've not examined it closely but I'm not sure a second motor can be fitted. Quite often unless the whitemetal chassis have brass (or similar) bearings these chassis have limited life cycles, looking at your photo they look much the same casting. On the other hand a Highlevel chassis may be preferable, or could be retro fitted at a later date http://www.highlevelkits.co.uk/ Long or low rider may work Edited June 2, 2017 by hayfield Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 As for the Jamieson kit here is a link to an earlier thread about these type of kits, http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/111177-jamieson-eames-loco-kits-and-various-brass-coach-building-restoration-projects/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Bucoops Posted June 3, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted June 3, 2017 It may be that the 15 can be dual motor fitted - I may look at it at some point especially if a single motor is a but weak. There are definitely differences in the castings though. I don't expect the finished model to do too many miles so hopefully with oil top-ups and careful use the WM castings won't wear too fast I need to file back the bottom of the casting a bit to give ground clearance, but it looks like the DCC Concepts (I should be sponsored by these people as I seem to be using a lot of their kit!) contacts fit very neatly, using the M2.5 screws to hold the bogies together. Just had to slightly open up the mounting hole, and will also need an insulation piece between it and the bogie. I did cast my eye back to the Jamieson kit briefly yesterday - the frames I've quickly mounted in the poppy box - which has revealed that one axle hole in one side of the frame is ever so slightly out of line, but that should hopefully be easy to correct. I've made contact with High Level for a bit of gearbox advice too. The next part of the boiler is the tapered section. Unfortunately, it's a couple of mm out of true so if I soldered it on as-is it would be under a lot of torsion so I need to find a way of getting it correct. It's strong stuff and a quick try by hand failed, but I may try with some gloves to rule out the risk of a nice finger slice! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 Rich These older Jamieson kits are quite popular, as they can form a basis for semi scratch built locos. The rarer ones can go for very good prices http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CR-039-Cardean-039-4-6-0-Locomotive-and-Tender-rare-Jamieson-hand-cut-kit-/311883475522?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&nma=true&si=2kHhCxO70AaXEpbU3%252BPohU5fWjQ%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GWR-039-Barnum-039-2-4-0-Locomotive-and-Tender-rare-Jamieson-hand-cut-kit-/311883485699?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&nma=true&si=2kHhCxO70AaXEpbU3%252BPohU5fWjQ%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc More common types go for far less Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Bucoops Posted June 5, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted June 5, 2017 I don't know if an A1/A3 counts as common or not but those kits went for about what I paid so I guess I could possibly have got one for a bit less if I bided my time but no matter I've attached the tapered section of the boiler after getting it to be a more symmetrical shape. There's about a 0.5mm step unfortunately between the parts. I guess I could add a small bead of low-melt solder to the straight section of the boiler and try and hide the step that way. I have a nice chunky tip for my soldering iron now so I might start attacking the chassis next. Especially as I think the firebox section isn't immediately obvious as to how to get it to go togethere without holes in it... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Bucoops Posted June 6, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted June 6, 2017 Started the chassis this morning. I seem to consistently use too much solder. I tried with the smaller tip to begin with but just couldn't get the heat in so swapped to a 6mm one which still took a while but managed it. Quite a bit of cleaning up to do, but at least the spacer is square (well it's slightly curved so as square as it can be!). The bogie came pre-soldered thankfully! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Bucoops Posted June 6, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted June 6, 2017 Had a very quick look at the next part of the firebox. The firebox piece itself appears to be pretty close to the correct shape compared to the footplate and cab front. So I need to open out the taper on the boiler some more to get it to line up. Not easy but getting there... Hopefully I can find something with a similar taper I can use to help shape it evenly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 Rich The price of anything depends on what someone else is willing to pay, plus you got some wheels. I personally would not pay more than £30 for a basic kit, but in the main they go for more. Prices for these kits mostly go for more than I am willing to pay, but then I have enough stock for what I require As I said earlier you can enjoy building a vintage kit as designed, On the other hand use it as a basis for a detailed (semi) scratch built model. Thirdly something which falls between the two This months Railway modeller has an article on the A3's with a 3 mm scale plan, plus another article about building a London Road model of an etched kit, whilst not quite the same the build principals can be adapted to putting your kit together Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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