wiring a layout

[bobby098]

hi need help with the wiring,   just done a drawing of a layout that's going  in the shed,  picture below  all points are electric (peco Insulfrogs )  I like to run two trains , can anyone tell me or draw me picture where to put the wires to run 2 trains ? would I need drop wires to help with the power for the track ?  its going to be dc  , I know how to wire up the points its just the track I need help ..    cheers bob

 

 

[The Johnster]

Doesn't look too difficult in terms of track supply.  To make things easier for myself to describe the thing I'm going to call your outside circuit 'up' and the inside one 'down', assuming that you are generally following British practice in which 'left hand running' is used.  I am not sure what you are trying to convey with the arrows on the drawing but the ones on the up line should point the other way if they are to indicate running direction.  You need one feed to each running track, up and down, with isolating rail joiners at the crossovers.  You have a facing crossover at the top just to the right of the river bridge whose purpose is unclear to me.  As the layout is a continuous circuit in both directions, you can put these feeds more or less anywhere and the trains will run round and round.  To access your goods shed siding will need another feed to that siding, as current cannot be supplied to it by setting the points.  Droppers can be used if you prefer, they are a very good idea for reliability and will assist in fault finding, but are not essential.   I am assuming you are going to be using DC as you are posting in the non-DCC section; if you are using DCC I am not the person to help you as I know very little about it.

 

The tricky part is positioning the isolating joiners to be able to stable locos in loops and sidings, and providing switches to enable through running across them from one controller, but the power feeds are pretty basic stuff.

[bobby098]

hi heres another picture of the layout with the scenic and  building taking out    just the track plan  6ft x 6ft  square  n gauge
 question is
1  can I run 2 trains
2 best place to put the feed wires
3 were to put insulated rail joiners
4where to put isolated switched sections

sorry about silly question but I am total cxxp at wiring knowledge with electric is a no no  ???
can any one draw a pic for me please  cheers bob

Edited June 10, 2017 by bobby098

[Chimer]

Hi Bobby

 

Basically, to run two trains simultaneously you need the layout split into (at least) two electrical sections, as shown in blue and red on the diagram below (ignore green for now).  Where blue meets red, you need to use insulating rail joiners (IRJs) on both rails to keep the sections apart electrically.

The simplest thing to do is to connect one controller to the blue section and one to the red.  But this means when you pass trains from one section to the other, over the crossovers, you need to have both controllers set in the same direction at the same speed.  So it is better, in my opinion, to use switches that enable you to connect either section to either controller - then you can set both sections to the same controller while you make the pass.  This is best done using double-pole double-throw (DPDT) switches.

 

For wiring, I would suggest you need feeds at the 3 positions shown on each section.  You could probably get away without the upper ones on both main lines, but you might get into situations where trains stop unexpectedly because of the way the points are set somewhere where you wouldn't think it matters.  The feeds shown in the two goods yards are essential to get power to the kick-back sidings - which means you would need extra isolating section switches (bridging across an IRJ in one rail) if you wanted to leave a loco on the main part of the siding while running a train elsewhere on that section.  You can still isolate an loco on the kick-back, however, just by setting the point against it.

 

More feeds round the main circuit will give you protection against possible problems caused by rail joiners failing to pass current.  Some people would drop wires from every individual section of rail.  I don't go that far myself (ducks for cover).

 

Now the green bit - you could make this all red or all blue, but if you go down the switched sections route I would make this a third separate section.  You could then, for instance, drive a train into this section using controller A, then switch the section to controller B to take it out onto the other circuit.

 

Hope this makes a bit of sense.  I can go into more detail about the switchery if you would like me to.

 

Cheers

 

Chris

 

Edit to say posted before I saw your second post - I'll have a look at that in a wee while (after lunch!!)

Edited June 10, 2017 by Chimer

[Chimer]

Hi again Bob

 

I've added symbols to show where you need the breaks to be able to leave locos isolated in the relevant sidings.

 

Cheers

 

Chris

[bobby098]

hi chris and thanks you very much for your trouble , I understand the feed wires and the insulating rail joiners but not got a clue on wiring the double-pole double-throw (DPDT) switches. ? any chance of a diagram  electric not my strong point    cheers bob

[Chimer]

Hope this makes sense ..... I think you should use a third switch linked to the green section on my earlier diagrams.  The switches should be the sort with a centre-off position.

 

Edit to say the essential feed to the green section (you could use more) needs to be to the right of the green point (i.e. at the toe of the point).

 

 

Cheers

 

Chris

Edited June 10, 2017 by Chimer

[bobby098]

cheers chris..  I understand the dpdt switches and how to wire them up thanks for that ,  but you have lost me on the third switch linked to the green section?and the edit bit  ?  cheers bob

[Chimer]

The edit was just to say where to put the feed to the green section ...... and the third switch feeds the green section as discussed in my first post ......

 

"Now the green bit - you could make this all red or all blue, but if you go down the switched sections route I would make this a third separate section.  You could then, for instance, drive a train into this section using controller A, then switch the section to controller B to take it out onto the other circuit."

 

Here are the diagrams again, now showing the green feed and the 3 switches ......

 

OK?

 

 

[bobby098]

hi chris yes i have now got it .. lol  .. thanks very much for all your trouble your a great help . I understand more by drawings then  just saying it in words .   electric is not my strong point well no point at all   lol cheers bob

[Pete the Elaner]

sorry about silly question but I am total cxxp at wiring knowledge with electric is a no no  ???

Please don't feel that way. You have not asked anything silly & by asking now, you may have saved yourself a lot of time.

I can't really add any more advice because you have got accurate & helpful answers already.

 

Extra droppers can become desirable with larger layouts. Nickel silver is good at staying clean but not the best of conductors & you can create bad joints when rust painting & ballasting track.

If your layout is 6'x6', then you will probably be fine with no extra droppers. I would only worry about them if you find your trains are going slow at a particular point around the layout.

[The Johnster]

Absolutely.  The only silly questions are the one you don't ask.  Following Chris' diagrams should get you up and running in no time, and once you've got the hang of it you'll be devising circuitry and switchery of your own to do all sort of moves, like storing multiple locos on one road, or being able to bring a loco onto the other end of a train which already has one.  You will soon realise that getting the locos to stay put where you want them to is as much the name of the game as getting 2 or more running simultaneously,

[Suzie]

This one might simplify things a bit. It does restrict things operationally over cab control, but the wiring is jolly simple.

 

 

Feed the outer controller to the blue and brown feeds, the inner controller to the red and black feeds. Install the orange link wire and put the insulated joiner in where shown.

 

Operationally the outer controller controls the blue bit and the inner controller controls the red bit, except when you switch any of the crossovers between red and blue when the outer controller will take control to move a train into the red area. It might be what you want.

 

 

Edited June 11, 2017 by Suzie

[bobby098]

ok thanks everyone for your help ... and thanks  chimer  for the drawings a great help  ....  time to get started  cheers bob

[kevinlms]

Please don't feel that way. You have not asked anything silly & by asking now, you may have saved yourself a lot of time.

I can't really add any more advice because you have got accurate & helpful answers already.

 

Extra droppers can become desirable with larger layouts. Nickel silver is good at staying clean but not the best of conductors & you can create bad joints when rust painting & ballasting track.

If your layout is 6'x6', then you will probably be fine with no extra droppers. I would only worry about them if you find your trains are going slow at a particular point around the layout.

For the purposes of model railways, nickel silver is an excellent choice of rail. While it doesn't conduct quite as well as plain copper (I won't use the term 'pure copper'), it conducts well enough for model railways, without looking terrible like copper or even gold would, if you used those for conducting reasons.

 

The main problem with nickel silver is those areas which aren't easily cleaned, such as rail joiners. Dirt and oxides get in here, reducing conductivity, until it stops. This is why soldering wires to each section of rail, is considered the best option and not relying of the likes of slide in power connectors, or those rail joiners with wires pre-soldered on to them, available from some sources. Of course temporary or short term layouts, are unlikely to oxide up sufficiently for this to become a problem. Any long term layout, especially if subject to climate variations, is going to be far more reliable, if it doesn't rely on rail joiners and non soldered joints.

 

Steel rail can be used (since obviously it looks exactly like the real thing), but getting the right material is critical, because poorer quality steel rusts, killing the continuity. That is why old Tri-ang track once the coating is removed (abrasive cleaning), quickly became useless.

 

As far as the colour of nickel silver rail, there are many sections of the Melbourne tram network, where the rail has a high copper content and looks nothing like plain steel rail.

[Pete the Elaner]

For the purposes of model railways, nickel silver is an excellent choice of rail. While it doesn't conduct quite as well as plain copper (I won't use the term 'pure copper'), it conducts well enough for model railways, without looking terrible like copper or even gold would, if you used those for conducting reasons.

 

I agree with that.

I was careful not to say it was a poor material because I don't think it is. I find poor connections are much more of an issue than the conductivity of NS.

[cjlangdon]

At our Autumn Railway Modellers Weekend at Missenden Abbey we are running a course called "Wiring Made Simple" with Ian Morton

The dates are 20th-22nd October 2017, and  the course is specifically designed for the modeller, such as yourself,  who is building or planning a layout and suddenly realizes he has to think about how to make the trains run.
The aim is to demystify the subject and avoid complication at all costs. We’ve assumed little or no prior knowledge of wiring and other electrical issues – in fact we positively welcome modellers whose knowledge of what goes on beneath the bas...eboard is limited to connecting two wires to the controller (and perhaps not even that . . .).

Layout wiring is NOT rocket science and we won’t present it as such. However we understand that for many modellers getting things to work reliably is a necessary evil, so we’ll make acquiring the necessary knowledge and hands-on skills as painless a process as possible. The course is slanted towards analogue (DC) control but there is considerable overlap with wiring for Digital Command Control, so its content will be relevant to users of either system.
These are the kind of questions we’re expecting:

• What should I be thinking about before I start? What are my options?
• What tools do I need?
• How do I decide where to put feeds, isolating sections etc?
• How do I document which wire does what?
• How do you bridge baseboard joins?
• What different types of wiring connectors are there?
• How do you wire points?
• Section wiring – how do you divide the layout up into power areas?
• Power requirements
• Choosing controllers
• Different types of wire and switches
• Cab control and how it works
• Interlocking, common return, track sections, block control
• Advice on building a control panel
• Fault finding (the multi-meter is your friend)

 

Full details and online booking can be found at www.missendenrailwaymodellers.org.uk

 

 

[bobby098]

sorry too say this project is now abandoned due to heath reason. it was just to big ..  I am going to build a smaller layout 3ft x 2ft 6"
a two scene layout .. plans are already done and base is nearly there just waiting for a few things and hopefully I get going again .. I like to thank everyone who help me with the other layout....    again I be asking more silly question     lol   cheers bob

[rab]

Hope this makes sense ..... I think you should use a third switch linked to the green section on my earlier diagrams. The switches should be the sort with a centre-off position.

 

Edit to say the essential feed to the green section (you could use more) needs to be to the right of the green point (i.e. at the toe of the point).

 

DPDT2.jpg

 

Cheers

 

Chris

Another electrics thicko here.

Came across this post through the forum search;

I'm trying to get my head around wiring track sections,

in a way that doesn't involve stopping the loco,

and maintains the same speed, which this appears to do, although I guess there is a momentary loss of power

when the switch is changed over.

Am I correct in thinking that both switches

must be changed at the same time otherwise

both controllers will be powering the same section;

or is it the case that the controller not being used

to power the loco changing sections,

must be turned off before throwing the switch.

 

Edit to add:

Am I right in thinking that for DP2

the solid lines should go to green/yellow

and the broken lines to red/blue?

Edited May 6, 2018 by rab

[Chimer]

Another electrics thicko here.

Came across this post through the forum search;

I'm trying to get my head around wiring track sections,

in a way that doesn't involve stopping the loco,

and maintains the same speed, which this appears to do, although I guess there is a momentary loss of power

when the switch is changed over.

Am I correct in thinking that both switches

must be changed at the same time otherwise

both controllers will be powering the same section;

or is it the case that the controller not being used

to power the loco changing sections,

must be turned off before throwing the switch.

 

Edit to add:

Am I right in thinking that for DP2

the solid lines should go to green/yellow

and the broken lines to red/blue?

 

 

The idea of cab control is that one controller drives a train wherever it goes, across any section breaks, at least until it comes to a stop.  This avoids any complications arising from the train jumping from one controller to another.  The simplest approach is to switch all the track sections it needs to use to get from A to Z to the same controller, then drive it.  Once it has stopped at Z, the sections it has done with can be switched off (the switches will ideally have a central off position), or to the second controller for another move.  It can get more complicated than that - if for example section A is a fiddle yard, it can be switched to the second controller as soon as the first train is clear of it, ready to accept the next arrival.

 

But you should never need to throw a section switch while a train is moving in that section.  And although you can link as many sections as you like to one controller, you cannot (not should not, can not, as in it's not possible because of the way the switches and wiring work) link two controllers to one section.  You are choosing a controller for a track section, not a track section for a controller.

 

Regarding the edit, that's just a (fairly) conventional way of representing a DPDT switch showing you are switching two wires at once.  There could usefully be 2 more dotted lines hanging vertically to represent the centre-off position. It wasn't meant to imply any particular switch being switched any particular way - but what it is actually showing now I look at it, is both sections (Circuits 1 and 2) switched to controller 1, so a train could cross from circuit 1 to circuit 2 (or vice versa) under the control of controller 1.  Controller 2 would either not be being used, or controlling something happening on any other combination of sections available.

 

Hope that makes sense - without knowing what your layout looks like and what you want to be able to do with it, I can't be any more specific.  But do carry on asking questions if you think I can help!

 

Cheers

 

Chris

Edited May 6, 2018 by Chimer

[rab]

The idea of cab control is that one controller drives a train wherever it goes, across any section breaks, at least until it comes to a stop.  This avoids any complications arising from the train jumping from one controller to another.  The simplest approach is to switch all the track sections it needs to use to get from A to Z to the same controller, then drive it.  Once it has stopped at Z, the sections it has done with can be switched off (the switches will ideally have a central off position), or to the second controller for another move.  It can get more complicated than that - if for example section A is a fiddle yard, it can be switched to the second controller as soon as the first train is clear of it, ready to accept the next arrival.

 

But you should never need to throw a section switch while a train is moving in that section.  And although you can link as many sections as you like to one controller, you cannot (not should not, can not, as in it's not possible because of the way the switches and wiring work) link two controllers to one section.  You are choosing a controller for a track section, not a track section for a controller.

 

Regarding the edit, that's just a (fairly) conventional way of representing a DPDT switch showing you are switching two wires at once.  There could usefully be 2 more dotted lines hanging vertically to represent the centre-off position. It wasn't meant to imply any particular switch being switched any particular way - but what it is actually showing now I look at it, is both sections (Circuits 1 and 2) switched to controller 1, so a train could cross from circuit 1 to circuit 2 (or vice versa) under the control of controller 1.  Controller 2 would either not be being used, or controlling something happening on any other combination of sections available.

 

Hope that makes sense - without knowing what your layout looks like and what you want to be able to do with it, I can't be any more specific.  But do carry on asking questions if you think I can help!

 

Cheers

 

Chris

Thanks for that Chris,

very helpful.

[DCB]

I feel there may be a failure to state the obvious here. In cab control Each section should have one switch which selects which controller feeds that section.  That way the section can only be connected to one controller at a time while the controller can be connected to as many sections as one wishes at the same time.

 

Mine are two pole six way rotary switches so each section can be fed by up to six controllers but only one at a time, or in my case five controllers plus an off position.  Each section should be isolated with insulated rail joiners in both rails and care taken that trains do not stand with metal tyred wheels across the insulated joint.  If you use "Common Return" single pole switches can be used but I wired part of the layout common return and wished I had not. 

Edited May 9, 2018 by DavidCBroad

[Junctionmad]

 

 

I feel there may be a failure to state the obvious here. In cab control Each section should have one switch which selects which controller feeds that section.  That way the section can only be connected to one controller at a time while the controller can be connected to as many sections as one wishes at the same time.

 

Mine are two pole six way rotary switches so each section can be fed by up to six controllers but only one at a time, or in my case five controllers plus an off position.  Each section should be isolated with insulated rail joiners in both rails and care taken that trains do not stand with metal tyred wheels across the insulated joint.  If you use "Common Return" single pole switches can be used but I wired part of the layout common return and wished I had not. 

really once cab control gets complicated its cheaper and easier to go DCC 

Edited May 14, 2018 by Junctionmad