New Layout Idea- Swansea Victoria Themed. Huge Change of Plan!

[danstercivicman]

Just what the Dr ordered!

 

That's an awesome view, I struggled to use the old map site,

 

Thank you for posting.

 

The only alarming thing is that it clearly shows (I found it hard to tell from the signal diagrams), the Swansea Victoria was part of a massive goods complex which I think is connect by a single slip further up the line in front of the carriage shed and then a cross over from the down much further up. Oh dear! That's what I was hoping to avoid in 4 metres.

 

It just shows how large these places were even for a small site! I'm wondering whether I add another 2m but keep it very much detachable and then a detachable curve section to fiddleyard? Or if I build Swansea Victoria (style) station and then aim to build the rest in 10-20 years...

[Joseph_Pestell]

Thank you everyone for the kind replies

 

I'll try and add to them

 

1) the info on the Jubiliees is great, I regret selling Achillles so one is definitely on my list

 

2) thanks for the info on the coaches I had no idea what the right hand meant but that makes sense

 

Last time I travelled on a Pendelino Tin can it felt like being squashed I decided the Chiltern line from Moor St was much more comfortable with the old BR stock hauled by what was then a 67 much more fun

 

3) I like the kit ideas. I can built model planes, tanks etc to a relatively good standard, what I've never done is huiltbany locos or soldered things, I'm not very mechanical...maybe I should start!

 

The overall roof just fills me with dread. I'd be happy building it if I knew where and how to start. I've thought about the scale scenes overall roof but it doesn't look right. I think that really it seems to be pole and metal beam things, I could built it partially covered which might make things easier. Given my Shelf is full of models I think I should try to get the shape. Why doesn't someone make triangle shaped canopy components? It seems that the triangle shape was quite common, there must be more to this hobby than the few canopies we have of which I do like the scalescenes stuff!

 

I guess this is what I need:

 

http://www.squirestools.com/files/12-19a.pdf

 

Thanks for the links- there seems to be more pics on that search engine than google found!

 

Thanks for all the replies. Next month I will hopefully be buying the wood (or collett coaches)

Back in the day when I was involved in etched sheets, it was always my intention to do a sheet of rivetted angle plates which could be used to construct roofs of this type.

 

If you made up a jig to hold things in place while soldering/glueing, it should not be very difficult. Plastic strip also an option as per Ron Heggs' Manchester Central.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Thank you, the radius seems good esp the #6. With point motors what/how do you power them? I've never used them before do they run from the accessory output on the guage master controller?

It would depend what type. For solenoids (Peco PM10, SEEP, Hattons), 16v AC is the usual as supplied by the accessory outputs on various controllers.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I looked at the station on old-maps.co.uk yesterday as well.

 

The station itself is fairly compact but, as you say, there is a lot of other stuff going on around it. Perhaps you could turn it round the other way so the carriage shed is in the background and conceals the unmodelled goods yard.

 

May also be worth constructing boards that are not rectangular. That way you can avoid modelling the high-level docks lines in front and it might make it easier to add the goods yard later on if you get the space.

 

No obvious scenic break at the country end of the station. You may have to invent a roadbridge or a high building (warehouse probably) to conceal exit from scenic area.

[danstercivicman]

It would depend what type. For solenoids (Peco PM10, SEEP, Hattons), 16v AC is the usual as supplied by the accessory outputs on various controllers.

I've got a guage master single controller x2 which has 16v AC. I think I'll use a mimic board for control

It would depend what type. For solenoids (Peco PM10, SEEP, Hattons), 16v AC is the usual as supplied by the accessory outputs on various controllers.

I've got a guage master single controller x2 which has 16v AC. I think I'll use a mimic board for control

[Joseph_Pestell]

Just to throw another idea into the ring, have you considered Cardiff?

 

The good folk of South Wales got pretty fed up with the GWR having a monopoly on their coal traffic to London and taking a "great way round" to get there, putting up the prices. They asked the LNW to build a line to Wales. This would have started from Oxford and run over the Witney/Fairford branch, not then under GW control, continuing to Wales via Gloucester (so far, all true history).

 

The resulting passenger terminus in Cardiff would probably have been quite similar to Swansea Victoria but as this is a "Rule 1" suggestion, you can adapt the trackplan to suit the space that you have.

[clecklewyke]

Ta, it won't be prototype modelling but themed.   There's no way I can recreate that roof!!! 

 

Here are the loco's I have which will operate on this railway-

(etc...

 

I really think you should acknowledge that Swansea Victoria was a LNWR station by including some ex-LNWR locos. The Bachman Super D 0-8-0 is a super model and would be ideal. Also it would be good to use some LNWR buildings and signals.

 

And I'm surprised no-one has mentioned Iain Rice's plan based on Swansea Victoria in his Main Lines in Small Spaces. He uses the high level goods line to the docks as a back drop and to give a continuous loop.

 

It's nice to see another compact terminus plan - Cyril Freezer would approve!

 

Ian

 

P.S. what did you draw your plan with?

 

P.P.S. Your link to the prototype plan does not work for me.

 

P.P.P.S. What a lot of replies in such a short time - says something!

Edited June 13, 2017 by clecklewyke

[westerner]

I've come across this thread a bit late and I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned these two books. Iain Rice created a plan based on Swansea Victoria in his book "Designs for Urban Layouts" and also a book (I suspect out of print) called "Portrait of the CENTRAL WALES LINE" by Marin Smith published by Ian Allen, would be a very useful book if you can get hold of a copy. Timetables lots of photos (Jubilees with only 3 coaches)etc.

[Liam]

Just to throw another idea into the ring, have you considered Cardiff?

 

The good folk of South Wales got pretty fed up with the GWR having a monopoly on their coal traffic to London and taking a "great way round" to get there, putting up the prices. They asked the LNW to build a line to Wales. This would have started from Oxford and run over the Witney/Fairford branch, not then under GW control, continuing to Wales via Gloucester (so far, all true history).

 

The resulting passenger terminus in Cardiff would probably have been quite similar to Swansea Victoria but as this is a "Rule 1" suggestion, you can adapt the trackplan to suit the space that you have.

How dare the LNW try and get into the heart of our territory! What were the people of Cardiff thinking?

 

No, they jointly operated the Marches with the GW. So who was the Fairford branch owned by before the GW?

[Joseph_Pestell]

How dare the LNW try and get into the heart of our territory! What were the people of Cardiff thinking?

 

No, they jointly operated the Marches with the GW. So who was the Fairford branch owned by before the GW?

 

The people of Cardiff, like the people of Hull, thought that a bit of competition might mean they got a better deal.

 

The Witney branch was, like many, an independent project, only taken over by the GW after some years. A new passenger station was built at Witney when the line was extended to Fairford. I don't remember whether that was an independent project or under the GW.

[danstercivicman]

Wow!   This layout idea has started some great discussions!!

 

I have looked at the track plans and come up with this for the track required (gulp) That's a lot!

 

SL-80, H0 Peco Streamline Code 100, Single slipswitch 248mm. 1
SL-85, H0 Peco Streamline Code 100, Left catch turnout 104mm. 1
SL-88, H0 Peco Streamline Code 100, Right turnout 257mm. 3
SL-89, H0 Peco Streamline Code 100, Left turnout 257mm. 7
SL-92, H0 Peco Streamline Code 100, Left turnout 184mm. 1
SL-95, H0 Peco Streamline Code 100, Right turnout 219mm. 1
SL-96, H0 Peco Streamline Code 100, Left turnout 219mm. 8
SL-98, H0 Peco Streamline Code 100, Wye turnout 219mm. 3
SL-99, H0 Peco Streamline Code 100, Threeway turnout 219mm. 1
112, H0 Shinohara Code 100, #6 Double crossover 490mm. 1

 

And this is as close as I can get to the plans with Anyrail and a Shinohara Scissors-

 

Drawn with anyrail- the original plan should open with any PDF.

 

LNWR signals and locos...one step at a time.  I may have to come up with a new plan as this one is simply massive...

[danstercivicman]

I've come across this thread a bit late and I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned these two books. Iain Rice created a plan based on Swansea Victoria in his book "Designs for Urban Layouts" and also a book (I suspect out of print) called "Portrait of the CENTRAL WALES LINE" by Marin Smith published by Ian Allen, would be a very useful book if you can get hold of a copy. Timetables lots of photos (Jubilees with only 3 coaches)etc.

 

I've got the Martin Smith book from Amazon at a few ££

 

The Iain Rice book is £29 used.....  

 

If anyone has some suggestions of the plan I'd much appreciate them. 

 

Yeah, I counted the coaches in the station behind the 5MT and it was only hauling three coaches.  Maybe I need to revisit my plans and stop trying to fit goods into a passenger terminus! 

 

The only other option I had left was Windermere...but I hoped this would be better :S

[£1.38]

An older map of Swansea Victoria shows that the centre lines in the station were once through lines connecting to the goods lines beyond the station. That might be a way forward.

 

Another idea I once toyed with was doing just half of the V shaped station at Holyhead. That has a passenger terminus with through lines for goods and mail. A convenient overbridge cuts out the need to model a lot of the trackwork.

 

The departure side had several platforms.

 

 

 

[clecklewyke]

There are two very similar Iain Rice books (even sharing the same drawing on the cover) - Designs for Urban Layouts and the one I mentioned - Main Lines in Small Spaces (or therebaouts). My copies are mislaid after a house move so I cannot check which has the Victoria plan but the chap who designed Chelford Spa, states that it is basically a mirror image of Iain's plan Another Victoria in the Urban Layouts bbok. I'm sorry if I was wrong but both are brilliant reads and highly inspirational. I've borrowed lots of his ideas for my layouts.

 

Windermere is another useful prototype with four platforms, very similar in layout to Swansea Victoria. My Bradford North Western is based on Windermere, minus most of the sidings.

 

Ian

 

P.S. I've looked at the Anyrail site and I see it only works on Windows. Are there any programs other than Templot (which is much more complex that I need) which work on Macs?

Edited June 13, 2017 by clecklewyke

[danstercivicman]

An older map of Swansea Victoria shows that the centre lines in the station were once through lines connecting to the goods lines beyond the station. That might be a way forward.

 

Another idea I once toyed with was doing just half of the V shaped station at Holyhead. That has a passenger terminus with through lines for goods and mail. A convenient overbridge cuts out the need to model a lot of the trackwork.

 

The departure side had several platforms.

 

 

a-Holyhead.jpg

 

Good suggestion.  I do like the Windermere and Holyhead ideas.   Definitely room to run Pacifics with the Excursions and Boat Trains!  Plus Rebuilt Scots etc...  I digress

 

Examining my track plan again- I reckon I can compress it to this.  The minimum curve is 610mm at the far end which would allow the layout to come back round to the fiddle yard.  It fits nicely around the loft support beam and the arches of the high level dock line would provide the background.   I've had to compress at the far end which would be a road bridge (without a bus) and some form of dock warehouse.  

 

Overall I think it flows ok? 

 

Sorry I cannot answer the Anyrail question.  I do not have that technical knowledge I'm afraid

[danstercivicman]

I've bit the bullet. A Shinohara 112 scissors have been ordered! No turning back!!

[The Johnster]

Just to throw another idea into the ring, have you considered Cardiff?

 

The good folk of South Wales got pretty fed up with the GWR having a monopoly on their coal traffic to London and taking a "great way round" to get there, putting up the prices. They asked the LNW to build a line to Wales. This would have started from Oxford and run over the Witney/Fairford branch, not then under GW control, continuing to Wales via Gloucester (so far, all true history).

 

The resulting passenger terminus in Cardiff would probably have been quite similar to Swansea Victoria but as this is a "Rule 1" suggestion, you can adapt the trackplan to suit the space that you have.

 

The LNWR sort of did reach Cardiff, obtaining a majority shareholding in the Rhymney after it went bankrupt building the Cefn Onn tunnel.  They had a goods shed and their own siding on the docks and outstationed a loco to work them at East Dock shed.

[martin_wynne]

Are there any programs other than Templot (which is much more complex that I need) which work on Macs?

 

Hi Ian,

 

XTrackCad is free and available for a Mac: The XTrackCAD Wiki: Welcome to XTrackCAD

 

Downloads: The XTrackCAD Wiki: Download XTrackCAD Version 4.3.0

 

About using on a Mac: The XTrackCAD Wiki: Using XTrackCAD on Mac OSX

 

It's an old program originally written by Dave Bullis, but now being maintained as an open source project by Martin Fischer.

 

There is an active Yahoo group for users: Yahoo! Groups

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[The Johnster]

You're on the right lines (sorry) stock wise, but I would include more Stanier and Hawksworth coaching stock to run with the mk1s, even towards the end of services.  Photos seem to indicate that stock ran in 3 or 4 coach sets of the same type, all mk1s, all Staniers, or all Hawkworth, with one brake vehicle at the Swansea end, not the middle.  Shrewsbury allocated BR standard 5MT could be in lined green WR livery.  Every photo I've seen of Jubilees on the route shows them with mk1s, but they only appeared late in the day.  The Hawkworths were Shrewsbury allocated and would probably not overnight at Swansea.  I agree that you need at least one 0-8-0, and a Fowler 2-6-4T if you can find one;  Crabs and moguls were not common on the Central Wales trains, though I think Fowler 4Fs were allocated to Paxton Street at one time.  Matters became a bit more mixed up when the line was ceded to the WR, and Paxton Street's locos at least nominally allocated to Landore, but GW outside cylinder types would not have clearance over much of the route north of Llandeilo.  I have seen a photo of a Paxton Street BR standard 4MT 2-6-4T on a Carmarthen-Aberystwyth train!  But the 'standard fare' was Black 5s, BR standard 5MT 4-6-0s, and Stanier 8Fs; you can't have too many of these for Central Wales working.  Never heard of a WD on the route, so somebody'll post a photo of one slogging up to Sugar Loaf in the next few days!  Central Wales route trains had a reputation for being flogged LNW style, and not hanging about; perhaps the WDs were considered too slow...

 

The Penclawdd branch was worked by 57xx panniers with LMS non-corridor compartment stock in it's later years, and generated lengthy cockle gatherer's specials.  Half a B set is unlikely, though not impossible, but not the Airfix/Dapol/Hornby bow-ended type as these were permanently close coupled with miniature buffers on the inner ends; later flat ended Collett types are ok but not obtainable rtr.  It is a conspiracy and they are out to get you!  Diesels would be 08 and possibly D95xx, for transfer traffic to other parts of the dock system, otherwise EE type 3 with central headcode panel, Pantyfynnon allocated ones being headlight fitted; I doubt the D6xx ever got to Victoria, being used for coal traffic based at Pantyfynnon.  AFAIK the D6xx were never headlight fitted as they only worked over the southern portion of the route.  And the headlight fitted 2 car power twin Swindon Cross Country sets of course.

 

64xx panniers certainly worked out of High Street with auto trailers, but I have never heard of them at Victoria.

Edited June 13, 2017 by The Johnster

[danstercivicman]

You're on the right lines (sorry) stock wise, but I would include more Stanier and Hawksworth coaching stock to run with the mk1s, even towards the end of services.  Photos seem to indicate that stock ran in 3 or 4 coach sets of the same type, all mk1s, all Staniers, or all Hawkworth, with one brake vehicle at the Swansea end, not the middle.  Shrewsbury allocated BR standard 5MT could be in lined green WR livery.  Every photo I've seen of Jubilees on the route shows them with mk1s, but they only appeared late in the day.  The Hawkworths were Shrewsbury allocated and would probably not overnight at Swansea.  I agree that you need at least one 0-8-0, and a Fowler 2-6-4T if you can find one;  Crabs and moguls were not common on the Central Wales trains, though I think Fowler 4Fs were allocated to Paxton Street at one time.  Matters became a bit more mixed up when the line was ceded to the WR, and Paxton Street's locos at least nominally allocated to Landore, but GW outside cylinder types would not have clearance over much of the route north of Llandeilo.  I have seen a photo of a Paxton Street BR standard 4MT 2-6-4T on a Carmarthen-Aberystwyth train!  But the 'standard fare' was Black 5s, BR standard 5MT 4-6-0s, and Stanier 8Fs; you can't have too many of these for Central Wales working.  Never heard of a WD on the route, so somebody'll post a photo of one slogging up to Sugar Loaf in the next few days!  Central Wales route trains had a reputation for being flogged LNW style, and not hanging about; perhaps the WDs were considered too slow...

 

The Penclawdd branch was worked by 57xx panniers with LMS non-corridor compartment stock in it's later years, and generated lengthy cockle gatherer's specials.  Half a B set is unlikely, though not impossible, but not the Airfix/Dapol/Hornby bow-ended type as these were permanently close coupled with miniature buffers on the inner ends; later flat ended Collett types are ok but not obtainable rtr.  It is a conspiracy and they are out to get you!  Diesels would be 08 and possibly D95xx, for transfer traffic to other parts of the dock system, otherwise EE type 3 with central headcode panel, Pantyfynnon allocated ones being headlight fitted; I doubt the D6xx ever got to Victoria, being used for coal traffic based at Pantyfynnon.  AFAIK the D6xx were never headlight fitted as they only worked over the southern portion of the route.  And the headlight fitted 2 car power twin Swindon Cross Country sets of course.

 

64xx panniers certainly worked out of High Street with auto trailers, but I have never heard of them at Victoria.

 

 

That's good to know...

 

I had no idea about the Collett coach ends I just think they are very pricey!   I missed out on Hattons Hawksworth bargins, had a Fowler 4P 2-6-4t which I sold and a 57xx

 

I think I will be 'theming' the layout rather than sticking just to prototype...

 

I do have a three coach set of the old Hornby Staniers, which I repainted and decalled (took ages) and a P1 Brake with a 57ft Mk.1 Composite and a rake of 3x Mk.1 Suburbans that I can use.   So as I have a plan that I like I think this stock would be good to get?

 

1) 57XX

 

2) Stanier Coaches (the newer accurate over priced type)

 

3) Hawksworth coaches

 

4) A Fowler 4P 2-6-4t

 

5) Lots of minerals, vans and goods stock.

 

6) Jubilee

 

I think my Birmingham Hope St may be dismantled to donate points. 

 

Going back to the plan- does anyone know how I should wire it and split it into simple sections?   I'm not DCC

 

Also how goods is the Shinohara stuff?   Looking at the difference in  radius between them and the Peco points and making a few changes the trackwork seems to flow more smoothly.  

Edited June 13, 2017 by danstercivicman

[The Johnster]

Dapol construction kit Stanier coaches aren't bad, preprinted in B & C or BR lined maroon livery.  Cheap enough to have a set of both!  Keep the Hawksworths to BR lined maroon versions, they didn't really appear regularly until later and much more so after the WR takeover.

 

I like the plan, and would be tempted to include some sort of connection to the dock system disappearing behind the station for a pannier to bring some minerals up and hand over to an 8F.  I'd suggest bringing the point at the Mumbles end that accesses the goods reception in a little, so that there is at least a 64' coach length after it disappears beyond the scenic break, which will mean that you will not see the coach turn around an unscale sharp corner on the visible part of the layout.  I know this shortens the reception road, but...  

 

I think your coal yard needs to be on the siding above it; it blocks the goods shed road and a crossover in it's current position.  An alternative would be on the 'bottom' siding next to the goods shed, but IIRC the high level lines were hemming things in a bit there in reality; you're not modelling them so they don't matter!  As this is a 'theme', I would suggest a bow strung girder overbridge for the scenic break.  

 

Wiring is fairly straightforward; I am assuming the use of Peco insulfrog turnouts, but if you know how to wire electrofrog it becomes the same thing as far as power feeds are concerned.  You need 4 power feeds, one on the up and one on the down mains, both the Mumbles side of the pointwork, and one each on the headshunt for the goods reception and the kickback on the 'bottom' goods road.  As your points switch the direction the current is fed to, it is then up to you where you place your isolating sections, but you will need one each on the platform roads and middle road siding, and one on the 'top' siding at least, so as to be able to isolate locos at the buffer ends and take stock away with different locos.  At a push you could dispense with the kickback and reception headshunt feeds and replace them with one of at the 'town' end of the bottom siding, but this will restrict operations a bit.

 

I would suggest 3 controllers, an up, down, and goods yard one, with switching to allow 'through running' between them, but you will be able to specify which moves are required and place the isolating joins and decide the number of switches accordingly.

 

Your signalman has one of the finest views from an urban location in the country...

Edited June 13, 2017 by The Johnster

[danstercivicman]

Thank you very much for the advice and info

 

Taking on board those ideas:

 

I have looked at the Signal Diagrams- No.2 shows a facing point (and a trailing one which I can't fit in) towards the Dock Branch  Pic 1... However I can't work out how goods would leave the yard?   Would it be shunted to the Low Level Sidings on the far side of the Station (where I have just moved the coal sidings too...  Or would it have left from the Goods yard.  If so I can't find a starting signal.

 

Pic 2 removes the Dock Branch facing point and starts goods trains off in the Yard.   I have no idea if this is how it worked?

 

It also shows a reduction in complexity and an attempt to let things breathe.

 

Thoughts welcome.

 

 

[Fat Controller]

The Penclawdd branch (it actually ran to Llanmorlais) closed to passengers well before WW2 (5th January 1931), though residual freight lasted until 2nd September 1957. This consisted mainly of coal from a couple of small pits, supplemented during WW2 by traffic to and from a munitions factory (which filled shells and bombs with poison gas) at Llanmorlais. The track remained in place well into the 1960s.

The Warships arrived after Victoria had closed, as did the 'six-eighters'. 

When Paxton St closed (though it retained a turntable, watering and possibly coaling facilities) the allocation went briefly to Landore, but was then shared between Llanelly and Eastern Depot sheds. Most of the freight on the Central Wales line in the latter days of steam worked from Llandeilo Jct, Llanelly, rather than from Victoria.

This link may be of interest:- https://signalbox.org/branches/bw/centralwales.htm

[danstercivicman]

Cheers. I gave that a good read the other night. This is of course a themed layout and the premise is that The Beeching report never made it through the hung parliament. TSR2 also never got cancelled...

 

The exustance of that factory and the docks might explain why Swansea Victoria had no roof, it apparently took hits in WW2.

 

I could of course do away with the ladder of points in pic two, move the goods entrance the other side of the cross over to the up line and save some points!

[Joseph_Pestell]

Swansea suffered more than most from WW2 bombing. Hence a lot of fairly grim 1950s/1960s buildings in the city centre.

 

Being right next to the docks, it is hardly surprising that Victoria sustained a lot of damage.