New Layout Idea- Swansea Victoria Themed. Huge Change of Plan!

[danstercivicman]

Brilliant Information everyone  

 

Yes, the LNWR Goods Arrangements at Swansea Victoria appear very substantial.   From looking at he maps there was a goods shed almost the size of the station canopy in length and about half as wide.  There were a huge amount of sidings towards the docks and at least three further long sidings than in my plan next to the Good Shed with two more by the high level arches.   A surprise is hopefully coming via Royal Mail but I am awaiting funds for anything else...

[Penlan]

 From looking at he maps there was a goods shed almost the size of the station canopy in length and about half as wide.  

And the Carriage Shed twice as big..

 

 

[danstercivicman]

Oh yes indeed, that will be fun building a replica of that CURVED....  huge building (quivers)...thankfully no one seems to have photographed it or the goods shed and the only bit I can see is on the BFI library film or as background to station shots...

 

I have also seen Bachmann do an LNWR (or did its probably sold out now lol) Webb Tank. 

 

I have always wondered why were they called coal tanks?  

 

Another loco that I think graced Swansea Victoria

Edited June 20, 2017 by danstercivicman

[Fat Controller]

I think they were called 'Coal Tanks' because they were intended to work coal trains. 

That carriage shed is absolutely massive in comparison with the station; I wonder why it's so large?

[danstercivicman]

I think they were called 'Coal Tanks' because they were intended to work coal trains.

That carriage shed is absolutely massive in comparison with the station; I wonder why it's so large?

Ah, that makes sense! I did wonder whether there was wood tanks or oil tanks but everything used coal (except for the oil experiments). Nice little loco the Webb coal tanks!

 

Yeah it is very oversized. In fact Swansea Victoria seems slightly dis proportioned- a two platform terminus with a carriage shed of that size... I have seen pics of lamps having to be changed in the top of the very old coaches it no your right it is a mystery.

 

I'm still amazed the station almost turns 90 degrees as well!

[Penlan]

The length of the carriage shed is not a lot longer than the length of the platforms, and carriage cleaning etc., was done undercover.
The trains have been shorter in BR days, but LNWR period views on the Central Wales line occasionally show trains of up to 7 - 8 coaches long.

[Penlan]

I think they were called 'Coal Tanks' because they were intended to work coal trains. 

The expansion of Coal mining in the mid Victorian age, and the requirements to move many more coal trains,

meant a specific type of engine was required.

The LNWR Board in 1872 stated they wanted something similar to the 4' 3" wheeled 0-6-0 'Special Tanks' with a tender,

thus the '4' 3" 0-6-0 Tender Coal Engine'.  

There were various influences at the time for Webb to take note of, especially from the L&Y,

and it was realised that with then becoming 'fashionable' trend to have side tanks,

and the continued success of Webb's radial truck on other engines,

the 0-6-2T for Coal traffic was born in 1881, called the '4ft 3inch 6-wheeled Coupled Side Tank Coal Engine'.  

Because of the side tanks, the Coal Tanks had greater adhesion weight as well,

about <30% more per axle, than the standard 0-6-0 Coal Engine. 

Edited June 21, 2017 by Penlan

[The Johnster]

The 'coal tanks' were extremely useful to the LNWR in South Wales, even if their heritage was more L & Y.  They were common on the southern part of the Central Wales, which is part of what we are discussing in this thread, and on. the Merthyr, Tredegar and Abergavenny 'heads of the valleys' route as well, which included some very tough climbing, as did it's Nantybwch -Rhymney branch and the Sirhowy Valley line from Tredegar to Risca.  Some of the last workings of this very long lived and tough design were in South Wales.  They looked a bit antediluvian against the GW 56xx developed from Rhymney and Taff Vale 0-6-2 tanks, but were hard working and reliable little engines, not upset by being driven hard and still capable of working with shattered axleboxes and big end bearings that would have stopped many other types.  Nobody could have ever accused the LNWR of mollycoddling it's locos!

 

I would say that the presence of at least one is vital at Victoria in the early or mid 50s.

[Penlan]

The Coal Tanks were cheap to make, easy to maintain (?) and lasted a long time,

My other hobby is Austin 7's (the cars) I have a couple and the same virtues are there.

 

There seems to be a theme, but there is no correlation between my Hobbies and my Wives.... 

Just in case John Miles reads this and tells my Wife....

Edited June 21, 2017 by Penlan

[clecklewyke]

The 'coal tanks' were extremely useful to the LNWR in South Wales, even if their heritage was more L & Y.  

 

Sorry, I don't understand this reference to the L&Y. I thought it had nothing to do with South Wales and I thought the Coal Tanks were a purely Crewe design - built before the LNWR took over the L&Y.

 

 

Can you please explain?

 

Ian

Edited June 21, 2017 by clecklewyke

[Penlan]

 I don't understand this reference to the L&Y. I thought it had nothing to do with South Wales and I thought the Coal Tanks were a purely Crewe design - built before the LNWR took over the L&Y.

The L&Y in the 1870's (and others) had started to use side tank engines, Webb noted they had better adhesion.

and thus the Coal Tank design from 1881.

Agreed the Special Tanks had tanks over the boiler, but the side tank was a far better design etc., etc.,

 

The context of the statement was why are they called 'Coal Tanks'?

Edited June 22, 2017 by Penlan

[Penlan]

I haven't bought/seen the Video, but following coachman's article on 'Carrog in 00'

>> http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/121995-carrog-in-00/page-14&do=findComment&comment=2761034 <<

post #341, and moving on with the link's there's a Video of the Central Wales Line at http://www.michaelclemensrailways.co.uk/?atk=103

 

And many other interesting bit's and pieces too.

Edited June 22, 2017 by Penlan

[danstercivicman]

Greet info and a very helpful explanation it makes sense with that wheel diameter and I guess adhesion and braking would be big factors in the days of un fitted mineral traffic. The 56xx is in many ways an evolution of the theme I like how they are aost always seen running bunker first! I had one from Bachmann and it was a beauty!

Great info and a very helpful explanation it makes sense with that wheel diameter and I guess adhesion and braking would be big factors in the days of un fitted mineral traffic. The 56xx is in many ways an evolution of the theme I like how they are aost always seen running bunker first! I had one from Bachmann and it was a beauty!

[Fat Controller]

There was an L&Y connection with this area of Swansea. 'Pug' 51218 worked at Swansea Docks for the last few years of its BR service, apparently having run all the way from Horwich works, via the Central Wales line, under its own steam.

[Liam]

Greet info and a very helpful explanation it makes sense with that wheel diameter and I guess adhesion and braking would be big factors in the days of un fitted mineral traffic. The 56xx is in many ways an evolution of the theme I like how they are aost always seen running bunker first! I had one from Bachmann and it was a beauty! Great info and a very helpful explanation it makes sense with that wheel diameter and I guess adhesion and braking would be big factors in the days of un fitted mineral traffic. The 56xx is in many ways an evolution of the theme I like how they are aost always seen running bunker first! I had one from Bachmann and it was a beauty!

If you ever see my future layout at an exhibition then certainly you'll see the 56xx arrive at the sidings bunker first. But it will have to depart chimney first as there won't be any turning facilities.

[Fat Controller]

If you ever see my future layout at an exhibition then certainly you'll see the 56xx arrive at the sidings bunker first. But it will have to depart chimney first as there won't be any turning facilities.

Perhaps the reason you see so many running bunker-first, notably in the Valleys, might be that the driver would try to have the boiler pointing up-hill. As the Valleys run (broadly) South- North, most views would be of Down trains, so that the photographer wouldn't be shooting into the sun.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Not wishing to confuse but a train running up the valley would be a down train.

[Fat Controller]

Not wishing to confuse but a train running up the valley would be a down train.

Not in South Wales, apparently. A quick glance at Quail shows 'Up' as being to the inland end of the line on the Aberdare, Merthyr, Rhymney, Cwmbargoed, Coryton, Machen and Ebbw Vale lines, and also on the Hereford line

Edited June 22, 2017 by Fat Controller

[The Johnster]

Sorry, I don't understand this reference to the L&Y. I thought it had nothing to do with South Wales and I thought the Coal Tanks were a purely Crewe design - built before the LNWR took over the L&Y.

 

 

Can you please explain?

 

Ian

 

The coal tanks were indeed a purely LNWR Crewe design from before the merger (not takeover) with the L & Y, but the design was influenced heavily by 0-6-2s on the Lanky and not be South Wales practice; it was, nonetheless, a very successful engine in a South Wales environment.

[danstercivicman]

I heard or read somewhere that the 56xx class used to either derail or induce heavy track wear running smokebix firstvwhen loaded. It seems quite an unusual engine. Personally I find the 45xx more balanced view wise... I know the 56xx did haul passenger working as well but most pics show them on freight...

 

In other news I should be back at work next month no need for surgery

 

In more important news an 8750 has been brought from eBay. 4680 in BR weathered black late crest (pic to follow).

 

Sadly I will not be doing much on the layout until Sept. we have relatives staying over and space will be at a premium

[The Johnster]

South Wales valleys practice, as a sweeping generalisation, was to have the locomotive running smokebox first up the valley, by which I mean 'upstream' and uphill.  This did not just apply to 0-6-2s, despite the myth that the type's popularity in the area was due to an ability to run faster downhill because of the radial truck leading in that direction, but to all valleys working.  Downhill mineral working was often slower than the empties up the hill anyway due to the need to control the trains with frequent stops to pin down wagon brakes or pick them up again; the danger of a runaway (the Brecon and Merthyr delightfully called these 'wild runs') being always at the back of everyone's minds.  The 'up' and 'down' lines were also 'up' and 'down' the valley, at least in the Cardiff and Newport divisions, and not related to London termini.  This may have been because the lines were originally floated by interests at the heads of the valleys rather than in Cardiff, Newport, or Swansea, so that the Taff Vale, for example, regarded 'home' as Merthyr, but I would not state this to be a fact, only something I think might be one...  The TV, and Rhymney, were originally isolated systems not connected to the developing national network, and the TV did not connect directly with the South Wales Main Line until that was converted to standard gauge, being physically connected to the LNWR and Brecon and Merthyr at Merthyr first!  The up road from Newport to Hereford is so designated because the GW considered it an alternative route from Newport to Paddington in pre-Severn Tunnel days, and the LNW, who had an interest beyond Abergavenny, considered it a route from Merthyr or Tredegar to Euston, which they considered to be the centre of the universe; we have already seen in this thread that they were happy to promote Euston to Swansea Victoria via Crewe and Shrewsbury as a viable route, so this circuitous adventure was well within their remit.

 

As an aside, I am told it was once possible to book a ticket by railway and steamship circumnavigating the globe from Euston to, well, Euston, as the LNWR had interests in and booking arrangements with the Canadian Pacific Steamship Company, the Canadian Pacific Railway, and Peninsular and Orient; you took an LNWR.train to Liverpool, Canadian Pacific steamers and train to cross the Atlantic Ocean, Canada, and the Pacific Ocean, eventually fetching up in ether Tokyo Shanghai, or Hong Kong where the P & O took over.  I have no idea if anyone ever did it, but on some sailing dates it may have been the quickest way to reach the Far East.

 

It was possible to see engines working chimney first down the valley in the Afan valley on the Rhondda and Swansea Bay railway; Treherbert locos would leave that station working chimney first up the Rhondda valley as Treherbert locos were wont, and of course emerge from the Bleenrhonnda Tunnel with the smokebox facing downhill; the reverse could be seen between Blanncwm and Treherbert.  Through excursion traffic with tender engines had the locos running smokebox first down-valley, but the 'semi regular' Tredegar-Barry Island excursions used LNWR 0-8-0s with tender cabs running tender first on the outward, downhill, leg.  I assume, but do not know with certainty, that smokebox first down valley working occurred on the Nantybwch-Tredeagar and Rhymney Bridge-Rhymney sections for through freight trains from Abergavenny.

[Northroader]

Not wishing to confuse but a train running up the valley would be a down train.

It depends whose line it was. The big companies, GWR, LNWR, had the convention that the line coming from London was the down line, the MR from Derby. The local valley companies TVR, RR, L&MM, etc., all stuck to having down as coming downgrade in the valleys. The GWR inherited such lines as the Monmouthshire, and the L &O, and their lines conformed with the GWR practice, but following grouping the lines such as TVR etc retained their old practice, so that lines in adjacent valleys could vary which was up and down directions.

In Central Wales application, a train from Victoria heading for Craven Arms would be an up train, reaching the GWR owned stretch Pontardulais to Llandilo it would be signalled as a down train, then revert to being an up train past Llandovery. Simples??

[Northroader]

Posting a minute after the Johnster, could I add that the practical consideration of working up the gradients chimney first, is that having the firebox at the lower end of the boiler there is more chance of keeping the firebox crown covered with water.

[The Johnster]

I heard or read somewhere that the 56xx class used to either derail or induce heavy track wear running smokebix firstvwhen loaded. It seems quite an unusual engine. Personally I find the 45xx more balanced view wise... I know the 56xx did haul passenger working as well but most pics show them on freight...

 

In other news I should be back at work next month no need for surgery

 

In more important news an 8750 has been brought from eBay. 4680 in BR weathered black late crest (pic to follow).

 

Sadly I will not be doing much on the layout until Sept. we have relatives staying over and space will be at a premium

Glad to hear surgery is not needed and you are on the mend, and that 4680 has turned up, danster, they are a lovely model.  The 56xx is in many ways an odd beast, not the usual Swindon product at all, a version of the Rhymney Railway 'R' class cobbled up out of Swindon standard bits.  There were, I believe, track issues when they were first introduced and this is what led to the very large and heavy balance weights on the driving wheel.  I believe they were the only GW design with sloping cylinders.  Riding behind one produces a very noticeable fore-and-aft surge when the engine is working hard.  They had trouble with the brakes as first built as well, not so much in effectiveness but the brakes produced a terrible grinding noise that caused complaints.

 

It looks all wrong, too front heavy, until you see it slogging away up a bank with a long train of mineral empties, then it all makes sense; they used to put me in mind of little terriers straining enthusiastically at the leash with their noses to the ground.  They are a major part of my childhood memories and I am very fond of them, as I am of my Mainline-body-with-a-Bachmann-chassis hybrid, which looks right and runs beautifully.  Even I wouldn't call them beautiful though; the 45xx is a much prettier thing, but look at the difference in power; 5MT over 2MT.  They were originally intended to replace the older absorbed 0-6-2s in South Wales and only given vacuum brakes because all GW engines were, as a matter of course.  Their use on passenger traffic was not common until after the Second World War when Taff Vale 'A' and Rhymney 'P' locos, mostly rebuilt with Swindon boilers and cabs, began to be withdrawn from traffic.  It seem obvious to me that, had Collett been considering their use for passenger work in the valleys, he'd have produced a 5'2" diameter driving wheel version, but equally obviously, there was more need for freight tanks at the time and the 66xx batch were contracted out to Armstrong Whitworth.  5101 class large prairies did such valleys passenger work as the TVR 'A' and RR 'P' couldn't cope with because of restricted range in the event.

[Liam]

Ah, you mean like this one Dan?

 

I'm very proud of my '8750', and thus adapted my exhibition layout plans around it so it could be operated on the layout I build!

 

It cost me about £60, which if you compare to Heljan's '1366' (RRP £159.99) is a bargain.