Something is rotten in the State of Denmark

[EddieB]

Having been following the story of the "de-accessioning" of the L&SWR T3 4-4-0 from our National Collection, and thanks to finding a local newsagent who still had a couple of copies of the previous issue of "Steam Railway", I'm starting to come to terms with a report concerning the Danish museum collection.

 

It is not good news.

 

According to a report in "Steam Railway" (467), four steam locomotives are included among seventy-seven items expected to be "de-accessioned" from the museum.  They are (with notes added):

 

4-6-2 E978 (Frichs, 1943 - last reported plinthed at Frederica, where it appears in DaveF's thread);

4-6-0 R946 (SLM, 1917 - once part of active fleet, recently stored at Randers pending overhaul);

2-8-0 H783 (Frichs, 1941) and

0-4-2 J1 (Borsig, 1881).

 

The report identifies that such "de-accessioned" items may be broken up to retrieve components/spare parts, and "remaining components" offered to other museums and preservation groups.

 

Although the Borsig 0-4-2 is said to have "virtually no parts left - they disappeared in the 1960s" - what remains is still a historic artifact and unique (the other types are duplicated by locomotives that will be retained in the collection.- not that that should give any reassurance).

 

 

I'm puzzled why this plan has not attracted an outcry similar to that surrounding the decision of SNCB to scrap two stored steam locomotives (a McIntosh type class 44 0-6-0 and a UNRRA 2-8-0) a few years ago.  

 

 

On a wider note, "de-accessioning" seems to be the new buzzword among curators of national railway collections.  Let us hope that those in charge don't act like sheep and further divest themselves of what has been entrusted to their care.

 

 

In somewhat happier times, here is H946 in steam at a commemorative event at the Danish Railway Museum, Odense (August 2000).

 

 

Edited June 17, 2017 by EddieB

[Horsetan]

 

.....puzzled why this plan has not attracted an outcry similar to that surrounding the decision of SNCB to scrap two stored steam locomotives (a McIntosh type class 44 0-6-0 and a UNRRA 2-8-0) a few years ago.....

 

Maybe the Danes don't get quite as excited over this type of thing as the British invariably do regardless of whether it's their stuff or not?

 

To me, the Belgian authorities seemed to have an equivocal attitude towards their steam heritage - for them, one example of each seems to be enough and they don't want others getting hold of the surplus.

[phil-b259]

Maybe the Danes don't get quite as excited over this type of thing as the British invariably do regardless of whether it's their stuff or not?

 

To me, the Belgian authorities seemed to have an equivocal attitude towards their steam heritage - for them, one example of each seems to be enough and they don't want others getting hold of the surplus.

 

I suppose if all you plan to do is 'stuff and mount' them in a museum, then having duplicates elsewhere dilutes the potential pool of visitors at any one site (particularly if one is in better condition than the other)

 

Also you only have to compare the sheer number of Heritage Railways in this country to the numbers in other European countries to see that enthusiasm for railways is far less in general than is the case in the UK.

Edited July 10, 2017 by phil-b259

[Guardian]

Also you only have to compare the sheer number of Heritage Railways in this country to the numbers in other European countries to see that enthusiasm for railways is far less in general than is the case in the UK.

Widely agreed - except for Switzerland...even in Germany, the ratio of Heritage Railways is not as dense as in the UK.

 

Cheers

Mark

[Vistisen]

As a resident in Denmark, I am not surprised by the lack out public outcry. There are very few railway enthusiasts or moddelers here. According to google there are just 12 model railway shops in the entire country. And one of those turns out to be a double entry! There are 4 exhibitions in the country between now and next april.

 

This simply is not a railway country despite having a long history of interesting trains and ferries.

Edited July 16, 2017 by Vistiaen

[Nearholmer]

Genuinely not wishing to be controversial: why should tax-funded museums hold more than a representative few locos?

 

Looked at in the long run, steam locomotives were a very important, transforming, technology, but you don't need many to make that point, and convey an impression of what they were like.

 

As enthusiasts, we tend to get excited about minor distinctions, but most of what we are talking about are "Stephenson-type" locos, and about three can tell the story: early; middle; and, late versions of the technology.

 

Kevin

Edited July 16, 2017 by Nearholmer

[jjb1970]

That's a point I've voiced on here before, it wasn't that well received. The question would appear to be what is considered to be historically significant. Enthusiasts have a habit of ascribing great significance to all steam locomotives yet the reality is that they're no different to most things in doing their job, being replaced then leaving the scene. The steam locomotive is of immense historical significance but very few individual deigns are. In reality those locomotives that we obsess about as enthusiasts are little more than a historical footnote.

[EddieB]

A further report adds F class 0-6-0Ts nos. 662 and 668, diesels MH 203, MT 166 and Traktor no. 1, along with rail cars, carriages and wagon; ninety-six items in all.

 

While I can understand the logic of the previous two posts, there was also a logical reason for setting aside these items for preservation in the first place. Something has clearly changed, which appears to be the way the museum presents its collection to the public, and which allows little scope for a future change of mind that might seek to reverse that decision.

[Nearholmer]

Yes, there is a trend for museums to drop "objects", in favour of interpretation.

 

No bad idea in some respects, because some traditional museums were so stuffed with non-explained "stuff" that they really only served people who already knew enough to interpret said "stuff" for themselves.

 

As an art-ignoramous, I often feel like that about galleries ........ I wish someone would take the trouble to explain why a lot of paintings are important, and, in many cases, what the dickens all the complex allegorical content actually meant to viewers a few hundred years ago.

 

The Pitt Rivers museum at Oxford is a rare and highly amusing survivor in the old genre ........ it's like the contents of the attics of many explorers, all tipped into a big heap, and unless you happen to be an ethnographer, it can only be enjoyed as a sort of glorious "car boot sale" of stuff........ it's pretty much interpretation-free.

 

But, it might be dangerous in the longer term to dump "stuff", because it isn't always clear what future interpretations might need to illustrate their points.

 

Whopping great aircraft-hangar sized stores, like the one the science museum has, might be the safest bet for "stuff" that isn't n ended for now.

 

Kevin

Edited July 17, 2017 by Nearholmer

[Zomboid]

The problem with history is that it grows every day, and what was once a significant phase becomes a smaller and smaller part of the whole. Take the 20th century, by and large we tend to group it into decades plus two major wartimes. The 19th Centruy is generally thought of in larger chunks, and the further back you go, the larger the chunks.

There will probably come a time in humanity's future that the steam locomotive will represent a century of travel technology, but might be represented by a single artifact, simply because the museum also needs to include a diesel, an electric, a hyperloop car, a fusion powered supersonic train and a 3 generations of teleporter.

 

Which is not to say that the future of these machines being in jeopardy is a good thing, far from it. But unless we stop innovating as a species, it's inevitable that this will happen.

[Nearholmer]

True.

 

But you surely aren't saying that we should never scrap or recycle anything, demolish any house etc, in case we accidentally loose a vital collective memory in the process. The place would be awash with redundant oxcarts already!

[Joseph_Pestell]

I certainly think that we often preserve too much, particularly in the case of listed buildings.

 

As to these locomotives, I think it quite reasonable that the public sector only retains what is the necessary minimum to interpret the past. But that does not excuse destruction of duplicates where there are private sector organisations willing to look after them.

[jjb1970]

I think a lot depends on what people consider museums to be, are the educational institutions or just providers of entertainment? I think they're somewhere in between as most people want to enjoy a visit regardless of educational aspirations just as most who go just for a nice day out will learn something from the experience. However, I suspect that for most visitors it is more about having a nice day out and being entertained than about learning. There is nothing wrong with that and it's the main reason I visit museums, but I think we should be honest about it. If museums are about genuine learning then I think they should de-clutter, streamline the exhibits and have much more substantive learning materials. As an engineer, if you really want to learn about, say, steam engines then what you need is a good text book which explains thermodynamics and a good text book that explains the engineering of steam engines (I believe Chapelon wrote a very good book). That's teach you far more about steam engines than looking at old exhibits ever will. You're not going to understand the aerodynamics and construction principles of aircraft by walking around Duxford all day but then again studying aeroengineering would be much duller than watching a Spitfire fly past.

Which brings us back to the question of what we need to preserve. If people want to preserve lots of locomotives because they like locomotives and enjoy visiting preserved railways and museums then that's absolutely fine (I enjoy it myself). If it's about learning then most of the stuff we preserve is completely superfluous.

[Horsetan]

.... (I believe Chapelon wrote a very good book). .....

OT, but so good that it's long out of print, and its value is seen more in financial terms to collectors/dealers rather than the knowledge it contains.

[EddieB]

OT, but so good that it's long out of print, and its value is seen more in financial terms to collectors/dealers rather than the knowledge it contains.

Available as a digital edition here: https://www.camdenmin.co.uk/products/la-locomotive-a-vapeur - same content, sans snob value.

[Dava]

Much of the point of preserving steam locos is so you can run them. that often justifies having multiple examples. The live steam loco is quite different to the static version and needs to be experienced. Imagine if there was just one static A4 and Black 5 in the NRM. There used to be a following for this in Denmark.

 

Dava

[Horsetan]

Available as a digital edition here: https://www.camdenmin.co.uk/products/la-locomotive-a-vapeur - same content, sans snob value.

Excellent.

[jjb1970]

Available as a digital edition here: https://www.camdenmin.co.uk/products/la-locomotive-a-vapeur - same content, sans snob value.

 

Thanks! I regret not ordering the re-print that was issued a few years ago, will get the digital copy.

[Nearholmer]

I've got the paper copy, for £2 from the charity bookshop in stony Stratford. If you want to borrow it, shout.

 

K

[plarailfan]

Crikey, imagine if, in say thirty years from now (2047) enthusiasm for railway heritage and history has declined to the same extent in the UK ! The NRM in York and Shildon **might** hypothetically speaking, find they need the space to house such things as, HS2 items and equipment, a class 59/66, a 68 and an 88. There may potentially, not be quite as many heritage railways, as there are today, that are able to accept items deemed to be surplus from the National collection.

I do feel very concerned. Our generation is currently looking after all sorts of interesting items and it is to be hoped that enthusiasm, time and money can be found for all these in the long term future. I do think it could be a big problem one day, eventually, maybe a site along the lines of the air museum at Duxford, might be deemed sufficient for a heritage site. The modern stuff that we are familiar with on the mainline, is ok, but the glory days probably ended around 2002, when the Virgin cross country services went over to voyagers and classic traction finally vanished from many parts of the UK overnight, so, I'm sorry, but I suspect, the clock is already ticking ! You only have to look at all the rusting relics scattered around heritage railways - no time, no money and no enthusiasm to get around to it !  

[Horsetan]

.... You only have to look at all the rusting relics scattered around heritage railways - no time, no money and no enthusiasm to get around to it !  

 

For a salutary lesson, you only have to look at what happened to "Crab" 42859.....

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...I wish someone would take the trouble to explain why a lot of paintings are important, and, in many cases, what the dickens all the complex allegorical content actually meant to viewers a few hundred years ago...

But Kevin, you know the answer. As with any specialised subject there is endless analysis - not by any means unanimous! - available in document form on library shelves and online. All it needs is enough interest to go and read through it for the next ten years.

 

Alternatively you can just go look and form your own impressions. One view of the portrait of Sir Thomas Gresham (National Portrait Gallery collection) told me all I needed to know: 'Do not fucking mess with me' would be my full colloquial expression of the impression conveyed. A very serious man indeed.

[phil-b259]

Crikey, imagine if, in say thirty years from now (2047) enthusiasm for railway heritage and history has declined to the same extent in the UK ! The NRM in York and Shildon **might** hypothetically speaking, find they need the space to house such things as, HS2 items and equipment, a class 59/66, a 68 and an 88. There may potentially, not be quite as many heritage railways, as there are today, that are able to accept items deemed to be surplus from the National collection.

I do feel very concerned. Our generation is currently looking after all sorts of interesting items and it is to be hoped that enthusiasm, time and money can be found for all these in the long term future. I do think it could be a big problem one day, eventually, maybe a site along the lines of the air museum at Duxford, might be deemed sufficient for a heritage site. The modern stuff that we are familiar with on the mainline, is ok, but the glory days probably ended around 2002, when the Virgin cross country services went over to voyagers and classic traction finally vanished from many parts of the UK overnight, so, I'm sorry, but I suspect, the clock is already ticking ! You only have to look at all the rusting relics scattered around heritage railways - no time, no money and no enthusiasm to get around to it !  

 

I feel this is not going to happen in the UK (yes more things might end up on static display rather than running about, and yes there might be a small amount of contraction as regards the number of venues) because on a national level the British have a fondness for 'old' stuff that simply does not seem to exist in other countries. As noted earlier what may happen overseas is NOT a good guide as to what may happen here precisely because of the very different underlying attitude to the past. This is evident by the sheer number of Privately run heritage and museum sites in this country (as opposed to the number of state back institutions) many of which (including several railways) have now been going for at least half a century now.

[Nearholmer]

Plarailfan

 

See parallel thread on here about the dissolution of the Electric Railway Museum near Coventry.

 

The giant nostalgia-fest can only keep things afloat for so long, then matters will boil down to what might actually be worth keeping to "inform, educate, and entertain" future generations.

 

Steam locos might do disproportionately well compared with other important bits of technology (think machine tools, or powered looms, or nuclear power stations) because they are inherently very entertaining. As a parallel: stage coaches. How many of you gem are preserved in full functioning order? Or, C18th ships of the line?

 

34C

 

If an arty type visits the NRM, I'd hope they would come away knowing roughly what a locomotive boiler does. All I'm asking for is the same level of basic education, not to study for an MA. It's no wonder there is mutual incomprehension between artys and techs if nobody bothers to explain even the simple bits!

 

K

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

In that case I commend to you '100 masterpieces in colour' pub Hamlyn ISBN 086136 6921 as a very approachable outline of development of Western painting. There may be better titles now (this was first published 1972) but it gave me a very effective start.