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I've started this thread as most of the other wireless dcc discussions seem to have tailed off some years ago; I hope this won't offend anyone.

 

I'm planning a dock side layout in 7mm and want to build some really authentic looking inset track. However I soon discovered that using actual metal check rails requires some very fiddly electrics with numerous unauthentic isolation gaps. I did consider simple battery power radio control but also wanted the charm of DCC sound. So I did a bit of research and came across a really clever chap in the US called Neil Stanton who has developed a wireless DCC system. Details at http://www.s-cab.com.

 

So after a few false starts I've applied his technology to a Dapol Terrier with the result that I have a loco with wireless DCC sound and speed control, and which will be able to run on my (yet to be built!) inset track without any need for any isolation gaps. Putting the various components into the Terrier was challenging but fun,  as a proof of concept it seems to work.

 

The attached video is possibly the only video on the forum of a loco not running on any track. I make no apology as it seemed the best way to demonstrate the absence of needing any power or control using the track!

 

I just thought it might be of interest to anyone else facing the problems of isolating sections of inset track. And the skill and innovation is all Neil's, all I've done is apply it this side of the pond.

 

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I'm not interested in DCC, but am hoping to convert my two Dapol Terriers to BPRC, using nRF24L01 transceivers. I'm interested to know what batteries you're using, and where you put them. Also what voltage you're running the motor at. Knowing what someone else has done may make it a bit more encouraging to start messing with mine!

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  • RMweb Gold

Nicely done!

 

I've been looking at a similar option for a few months, there is a US group, called the Dead Rail Society - there is one chap there called Duncan McRee, who runs Tam Valley Depot - he has a downloadable PDF book - it costs $5, but well worth it - it explains all about how he does it, batteries, using powered rails in places to recharge the batteries etc. If your interested, its worth a look - and Digitrains at Lincoln sell both the transmitters and receivers. http://www.tamvalleydepot.com/products/drs1deadrailcomponents.html

 

Not to take anything away from WindyDave or how he's done it, its going with what works for each one, just thought I'd throw some extra info out there - hope that's ok! No connection with anyone mentioned in anyway!

 

Rich

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I've done some testing for the manufacturer of the blue rail boards. I fitted one to my Finney 7mm A1 and run it on a well known layout hauling 7 coaches for over 2 hours on one charge. I was very impressed with the quality of running, it has a sound function which at the moment is for US prototypes but will have the option of other sounds in the future.

 

Simon

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It's definitely an interesting approach...

 

I'm less interested for locomotives, since they need power anyway, but I've been considering using BLE or similar 2.4 Ghz as an LCB replacement - my concern has been the amount of radio interference typically generated by DC motors.

 

I guess you're finding, even with the antenna in the loco, that it's manageable?

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.... I did consider simple battery power radio control but also wanted the charm of DCC sound....

 

.....The attached video is possibly the only video on the forum of a loco not running on any track......

 

Hi Dave

There have been other videos on the forum of locos running off track.

The Tam Valley DRS1 has been discussed or mentioned many times on these pages.

Here is a video that has been linked to from RMweb on a few occasions.

 

 

 

Note that the Tam Valley DRS system requires no special control system.

It's a simple add-on to any DCC system, from the cheapest and most basic, up to the most expensive and sophisticated.

Straight forward, regular "out of the box" DCC, to run any model of DCC decoder on dead rail.

No special handsets, just what comes with, or works with your DCC system of choice (tethered, wireless, smartphone, iPad etc, etc)

 

 

.......there is one chap there called Duncan McRee, who runs Tam Valley Depot - he has a downloadable PDF book - it costs $5, but well worth it ......

 

 

Rich, that book is FREE to download.

 

http://www.tamvalleydepot.com/images/DRS_Book_version_Oct_2013.pdf

 

 

 

...

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I'm not interested in DCC, but am hoping to convert my two Dapol Terriers to BPRC, using nRF24L01 transceivers. I'm interested to know what batteries you're using, and where you put them. Also what voltage you're running the motor at. Knowing what someone else has done may make it a bit more encouraging to start messing with mine!

 

The S-Cab system works on 3.7v which it bumps up to 12v. Basically I just looked for the biggest battery I could fit into the Terrier bunker which was a 3.7V 380mAh 25C50C LiPO RC Battery Walkera Giant Power from component-shop.co.uk. A tight fit but gives a reasonable length of operation.

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Nicely done!

 

I've been looking at a similar option for a few months, there is a US group, called the Dead Rail Society - there is one chap there called Duncan McRee, who runs Tam Valley Depot - he has a downloadable PDF book - it costs $5, but well worth it - it explains all about how he does it, batteries, using powered rails in places to recharge the batteries etc. If your interested, its worth a look - and Digitrains at Lincoln sell both the transmitters and receivers. http://www.tamvalleydepot.com/products/drs1deadrailcomponents.html

 

Not to take anything away from WindyDave or how he's done it, its going with what works for each one, just thought I'd throw some extra info out there - hope that's ok! No connection with anyone mentioned in anyway!

 

Rich

Thanks Rich, not sure how I missed Tam Valley in my research but very useful.

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It's definitely an interesting approach...

 

I'm less interested for locomotives, since they need power anyway, but I've been considering using BLE or similar 2.4 Ghz as an LCB replacement - my concern has been the amount of radio interference typically generated by DC motors.

 

I guess you're finding, even with the antenna in the loco, that it's manageable?

There doesn't seem to be any interference problem. What was an issue was the motor magnets affected the reed switches needed to switch the power on and off. So I detached those from the PCB's and moved them to just inside the cab where they work fine and are barely visible. D

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Hi Dave

There have been other videos on the forum of locos running off track.

The Tam Valley DRS1 has been discussed or mentioned many times on these pages.

Here is a video that has been linked to from RMweb on a few occasions.

 

 

 

Note that the Tam Valley DRS system requires no special control system.

It's a simple add-on to any DCC system, from the cheapest and most basic, up to the most expensive and sophisticated.

Straight forward, regular "out of the box" DCC, to run any model of DCC decoder on dead rail.

No special handsets, just what comes with, or works with your DCC system of choice (tethered, wireless, smartphone, iPad etc, etc)

 

 

 

 

Rich, that book is FREE to download.

 

http://www.tamvalleydepot.com/images/DRS_Book_version_Oct_2013.pdf

 

 

 

...

Hi Ron. thanks for this. Not sure how I missed Tam Valley in my research but really good to have been given the link now. My main issue with S-Cab is that it just allows 28 speed steps which means it's hard to get that really creeping start. D

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Rich, that book is FREE to download.

 

http://www.tamvalleydepot.com/images/DRS_Book_version_Oct_2013.pdf

 

...

Hi Ron

Ah! He's changed it since I bought it middle of last year!! Still that's good as it's an excellent resource, and might encourage others to look at the system. I'm thinking of fitting one to an 08 to provide smoother shunting!

 

Rich

I've done some testing for the manufacturer of the blue rail boards. I fitted one to my Finney 7mm A1 and run it on a well known layout hauling 7 coaches for over 2 hours on one charge. I was very impressed with the quality of running, it has a sound function which at the moment is for US prototypes but will have the option of other sounds in the future.

Simon

That certainly is impressive. What size was the battery you used? I'm assuming the A1 would have had a substantial motor in it?

 

Rich

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Hi Ron

Ah! He's changed it since I bought it middle of last year!! Still that's good as it's an excellent resource, and might encourage others to look at the system. I'm thinking of fitting one to an 08 to provide smoother shunting!

Rich

 

That certainly is impressive. What size was the battery you used? I'm assuming the A1 would have had a substantial motor in it?

Rich

The motor is an RG7 and the battery pack was as supplied withe the board, which was 3 3.7volt cells.

I've also tested on the bench rolling road with a Ron Chaplin, ABC type motors and have good results.

Simon

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  • 3 weeks later...

I to have invested in the Tam Valley system for use on an 00 garden railway. It seems the best, if not the only, system for use with DCC and you can still use your existing DCC controllers so no new expense.

 

Now comes the problem. When it comes to soldering or wireing l am all fingers and thumbs. Anyone know of anyone who offers a fitting sevice for this sort of thing?

 

Sourceing batteries and chargers seems a minefield as well for a bear of little brain like me as well, so no help or suggestions turned away.

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The problem with LiPo batteries used for these power hungry applications is their need of a carefully regulated charging regime, else they can be a very dangerous 'toy', especially if entrusted into the hands of younger operators as may well happen if the system is initially introduced at 'play' level. Exploding Samsung phone saga springs to mind.

 

I wonder how long a heavy diesel with a long rake will run for before the battery gives out. Will it be enough to satisfy the purist operator and/or exhibition layouts.

 

Also you really need bi-directional comms to get the best out of wDCC, even if only to feed back battery state.

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The problem with LiPo batteries used for these power hungry applications is their need of a carefully regulated charging regime, else they can be a very dangerous 'toy', especially if entrusted into the hands of younger operators as may well happen if the system is initially introduced at 'play' level. Exploding Samsung phone saga springs to mind.

 

I wonder how long a heavy diesel with a long rake will run for before the battery gives out. Will it be enough to satisfy the purist operator and/or exhibition layouts.

 

Also you really need bi-directional comms to get the best out of wDCC, even if only to feed back battery state.

 

 

I would agree with your comments entirely, but if following the 'Dead Rail Solution' noted above, the LiPo batteries are providing several hours of operation on OO gauge, and the background theory is that on straight track (i.e. not pointwork) where a loco may be stood for some time, then the track is powered (either DC or DCC it makes no difference) there by allowing the battery to receive charge.  The obvious area's being station platforms, engine shed stabling or fiddle yard roads.  This way, the battery keeps being topped up.

 

The DRS booklet mention about is well worth reading!

 

Regards

Richard

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The problem with LiPo batteries used for these power hungry applications is their need of a carefully regulated charging regime, else they can be a very dangerous 'toy', especially if entrusted into the hands of younger operators as may well happen if the system is initially introduced at 'play' level. Exploding Samsung phone saga springs to mind.

 

I wonder how long a heavy diesel with a long rake will run for before the battery gives out. Will it be enough to satisfy the purist operator and/or exhibition layouts.

 

Also you really need bi-directional comms to get the best out of wDCC, even if only to feed back battery state.

 

There are alternatives to LiPo batteries. on my latest diesels I use 4x AAA NimH consumer rechargeables rated at 850mAh each (Duracells) in series feeding a voltage booster providing 9V. There are no problems with charging although you have to do so in the charger. 

 

As an example I have a Hornby Railroad class 47 that has a maximum speed light engine of scale 91mph with 9V and can haul  12 Hornby Railroad Mk1 coaches at scale 60mph for over 4 hours, plenty for exhibition layouts if you consider the idling time for a full battery pack is nearly 50 hours. The receiver/booster combo draws less than 20mA when idle. If you need extra duration just add 2 additional batteries to give over 6 hours run time.

 

Although the comms are not bi-directional the receiver does monitor the battery voltage to protect against over discharge.

 

The reason I can fir all those batteries in is that the Hornby Railroad Diesels, and Lima ones, are mostly empty space inside.

 

The NiMh manufactures calculate the mAh capacity in a different way than lipos so those 4 duracells are about equivalent to a 1000mAh lipo

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There are alternatives to LiPo batteries. on my latest diesels I use 4x AAA NimH consumer rechargeables rated at 850mAh each (Duracells) in series feeding a voltage booster providing 9V. There are no problems with charging although you have to do so in the charger. 

 

As an example I have a Hornby Railroad class 47 that has a maximum speed light engine of scale 91mph with 9V and can haul  12 Hornby Railroad Mk1 coaches at scale 60mph for over 4 hours, plenty for exhibition layouts if you consider the idling time for a full battery pack is nearly 50 hours. The receiver/booster combo draws less than 20mA when idle. If you need extra duration just add 2 additional batteries to give over 6 hours run time.

 

Although the comms are not bi-directional the receiver does monitor the battery voltage to protect against over discharge.

 

The reason I can fir all those batteries in is that the Hornby Railroad Diesels, and Lima ones, are mostly empty space inside.

 

The NiMh manufactures calculate the mAh capacity in a different way than lipos so those 4 duracells are about equivalent to a 1000mAh lipo

I'm about to start converting a Lima GWR Railcar to RC, and 4 x AAA batteries would fit in the space where I was planning to put the electronics. Maybe two batteries would be enough though, based on your figures, for the way I will use it. Almost everything else I convert to RC in OO will be steam, although it may be a possibility when I get on to converting my O gauge steam locos. How do you fit the batteries so they are removable for charging? Photos would be good :).

 

Being a cheapskate, I'm working on using an Arduino Pro Mini, nRF24L01 transceiver and a motor driver. This will take up a fair bit more space than a dedicated loco Rx, but apart from being much cheaper, makes bi-directional communication possible. I'm hoping that eventually this will allow me to monitor battery state, power consumption etc., and also have a speedometer on the controller displaying real time speed from a wheel speed sensor.

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  • RMweb Gold

What is being discussed here is legit, interesting and cutting edge - i.e. all good stuff. However the thread title is a mite misleading - many of us already run wireless DCC, either infra-red, or radio, or in my case both, it changing seamlessly as the mood takes it. Of course we use conventional power from the running rails, but this thread is about eliminating that and making locos self-powered. Uncharted territory for most.

 

Would the OP and/or other interested parties like to consider a new terminology and hence title for this interesting thread, to make its advanced nature more explicit and avoid the confusion I, and no doubt others, felt on reading the first few posts? 

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What is being discussed here is legit, interesting and cutting edge - i.e. all good stuff. However the thread title is a mite misleading - many of us already run wireless DCC, either infra-red, or radio, or in my case both, it changing seamlessly as the mood takes it. Of course we use conventional power from the running rails, but this thread is about eliminating that and making locos self-powered. Uncharted territory for most.

 

Would the OP and/or other interested parties like to consider a new terminology and hence title for this interesting thread, to make its advanced nature more explicit and avoid the confusion I, and no doubt others, felt on reading the first few posts? 

 

 

Hi Ian,

Not my thread, but yes a very valid point - perhaps Wireless Radio DCC Decoders might be a better heading? Up to Dave tho really as its his thread ....

 

EDIT: Having just thought about it, I think the title is accurate, its the perception of what Wireless DCC is - I suppose Ian, your infra-red/radio is Wireless DCC control, where as Wireless DCC suggests there's no wires anywhere - but I agree its all about perception and it should perhaps be clearer for those searching for info or seeing the thread pop up.

 

Rich

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I'm about to start converting a Lima GWR Railcar to RC, and 4 x AAA batteries would fit in the space where I was planning to put the electronics. Maybe two batteries would be enough though, based on your figures, for the way I will use it. Almost everything else I convert to RC in OO will be steam, although it may be a possibility when I get on to converting my O gauge steam locos. How do you fit the batteries so they are removable for charging? Photos would be good :).

 

Being a cheapskate, I'm working on using an Arduino Pro Mini, nRF24L01 transceiver and a motor driver. This will take up a fair bit more space than a dedicated loco Rx, but apart from being much cheaper, makes bi-directional communication possible. I'm hoping that eventually this will allow me to monitor battery state, power consumption etc., and also have a speedometer on the controller displaying real time speed from a wheel speed sensor.

 

Two AAA batteries would give you a nominal 2.4V to power your voltage booster and two lipo batteries would give you a nominal 7.4V. The 9V booster I use works well with a single 3.7V lipo if your loco draws no more than about 300mA. That would save some space. 

 

I use Eflite style batteries like this

post-815-0-33826200-1500582122_thumb.jpg

 

and charge the batteries with this

post-815-0-64170900-1500582145_thumb.jpg

 

You can also buy USB chargers for a single lipo of this type. A single 160mAh lipo can deliver 1 Amp for about 9 minutes so if your railcar needed 200mA you should expect about 45 minutes of use between recharges. With a single battery it is simple to fit a simple switch/charge socket. I don't bother as I have modified the body for easy removal.

 

Looking to the future check out the concept of the Bluerail board. This uses radio to deliver the commands to the loco and normal rail power or battery or a combination of both. The neat trick is it auto switches between track and battery power so think of the battery as a 'stay alive' that can work for along time. They do not have auto charging though. I would think a board that auto switched between track and battery plus had on board charging via the rails would be an excellent solution. This could receive standard DCC commands of course and does not need to be a propriety system.

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Two AAA batteries would give you a nominal 2.4V to power your voltage booster and two lipo batteries would give you a nominal 7.4V. The 9V booster I use works well with a single 3.7V lipo if your loco draws no more than about 300mA. That would save some space. 

 

I use Eflite style batteries like this

attachicon.giftest rig 02.jpg

 

and charge the batteries with this

attachicon.giftest rig 04.jpg

 

You can also buy USB chargers for a single lipo of this type. A single 160mAh lipo can deliver 1 Amp for about 9 minutes so if your railcar needed 200mA you should expect about 45 minutes of use between recharges. With a single battery it is simple to fit a simple switch/charge socket. I don't bother as I have modified the body for easy removal.

 

Looking to the future check out the concept of the Bluerail board. This uses radio to deliver the commands to the loco and normal rail power or battery or a combination of both. The neat trick is it auto switches between track and battery power so think of the battery as a 'stay alive' that can work for along time. They do not have auto charging though. I would think a board that auto switched between track and battery plus had on board charging via the rails would be an excellent solution. This could receive standard DCC commands of course and does not need to be a propriety system.

2.4v might be a bit low, so three batteries might be better, as the electronics needs 3.3v. I'm replacing the motor in the railcar with a Susumotor (CD/DVD motor), and it will hopefully run fast enough on a fairly low voltage. I'm inclined to change loco motors to low voltage ones where I can, to avoid stepping up the voltage much, if at all, and use single Lipos for simplicity. Using AAA or AA batteries where they will fit is an easier option though.

 

I was mainly interested in how you fit the AAA batteries to make them removable for charging. At the moment I'm hoping to use onboard charging for Lipos, with a TP4056 board with USB socket for power, so I won't have to remove them (as long as I'm happy my locos won't go up in flames, and take the house with them :O).

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