Tri-ang Sydney Suburban Set

[Wolseley]

I just thought it might be worth mentioning that one of these rare sets is coming up for auction on 3rd July at 6pm Sydney time.  The full catalogue is not available on line yet but, once it is, we will presumably know the estimate and, more importantly, the starting price.  If it takes your fancy, you can bid by by attending the auction venue in Mount Victoria (obviously only an option if you are in Sydney or the Blue Mountains), on line, or by leaving absentee bids prior to the auction.

 

http://www.antiquetoys.com.au/pages/auctions/FMTA_Bigpic.php?ref=first-monday-toy-auction&title=First%20Monday%20Toy%20Auction&subtitle=Preview&itemnum=CQ114

[monkeysarefun]

Wow, the old red rattlers!  Built in the 1920's,  retired in 1992.

 

I still have nightmares about being  stuck in these things on a 45 degree day, no air conditioning obviously because they were built in the 1920's, windows usually painted shut and if they weren't they were too difficult to lift up because they weighed about 20kg, and you'd be stopped on the sunniest hottest portion of track waiting for the Southern Aurora or some 3 mile long ore train from Mount Back of Buggery to trundle through, while the sun beat down on the black tarred roof.

 

Ahh, wonderful  memories. Thanks for the heads up, I'll definitely keep an eye out for the starting bid!

[Wolseley]

windows usually painted shut and if they weren't they were too difficult to lift up because they weighed about 20kg, and you'd be stopped on the sunniest hottest portion of track waiting for the Southern Aurora or some 3 mile long ore train from Mount Back of Buggery to trundle through

 

 

My recollections of the windows were that they rode up as the carriages shook, which meant getting an unwelcome cold draught in the colder months....

[monkeysarefun]

Yes, or the alternative was that you'd managed to raise the window open then the train hit a bump and the tiny little ratchet thing that held it up got dislodged and the window came down like a guillotine and crushed your arm.

 

I recall standing on Museum station platform one evening in the late 80's, There was a couple beside me, English elderly tourists, and as one of these pulled up they commented that it looked quite old. I took some joy in pointing to the date enscribed on the bogie - 1924 I think it was..

[Wolseley]

Just out of interest, here's a photo I took some time in the 1970s (1975 or 76 perhaps?) of a train leaving Turramurra station en route for Hornsby.  The single deckers in this train are the "Sputnik" cars, which were, I believe, the ones selected as prototypes by Tri-ang for this set:

 

 

EDIT: See post of 2 July - the leading car is not a "Sputnik" but is a 1950 Tulloch car.

Edited July 2, 2017 by Wolseley

[monkeysarefun]

Great photo, takes me back to traveling to Granville tech in 1982! .

 

My eyes however are drawn to that double decker carriage - remember them? The state government would  occasionally attempt to make you think they'd bought new ones by repainting them different colours. I think some  were blue with a white stripe for a while?  How small were those teeny weeny  little slidey windows. 

 

These things would sit baking in a siding until they'd reached about 60 degrees inside, then they'd arrive at your western Sydney platform where you'd been standing in 45 degrees because there was no shade, , the doors would open and the heat would hit you as you climbed in and joined the other guppie fish gasping for air.

 

How much do you think is a fair price for the triang set?

Edited June 25, 2017 by monkeysarefun

[Wolseley]

The first generation of double deck carriages had ridiculously small windows upstairs.  Not only were they not much good for ventilation but, if you were taller than 5'6", your eyes were level with, or above, the window frame, making them feel rather claustrophobic inside.  I always used the downstairs section for this reason.

 

The blue and white colour scheme was a corporate re-branding exercise if anything, rather than a devious attempt to deceive the public (not that I would deny that the Government hasn't done such things on other occasions).  The plan was that all State owned suburban public transport vehicles (trains, buses and ferries) were to be blue and white but the decision was reversed before this plan was completed.  To my eyes, the carriages that suited it best were the original 1920s steel cars.  From what I recall of it in use, it was next to impossible to keep the blue and white trains and ferries looking clean.

 

Even the early Comeng stainless steel cars made prior to the introduction of air conditioning got uncomfortably hot in Summer.  If anything, they were worse.  I think they had forced air ventilation, but they may as well have not had anything.

 

How much do you think is a fair price for the triang set?

 

I'm not too sure, but it's going to be a lot more than the usual Tri-ang set would fetch.  It will be interesting to watch (no, I won't be bidding - I would rather spend my money on Hornby Dublo).

 

There is a story in circulation that there was one batch where a colour blind employee put the wrong colour in the mix and the models came out green.  If that's true and any of them survive, it could set new price records for Tri-ang should they come on the market.

Edited June 25, 2017 by Wolseley

[Il Grifone]

omis

 

How much do you think is a fair price for the triang set?

 

Seeing it's Tri-ang, about a tenner (or around 20A$ I believe). 

 

However, seeing it's also as rare as rocking horse poo, add a zero on the end and then multiply by x (where x >> 1).

 

They can't have been as bad as the old stock on the Waterloo and City line or the Glasgow Subway. It's true our temperatures are not quite as high, but it did seem like it in the rush hour. (Luckily just an unpleasant memory!)

 

Edit: Today's exchange rate 1.6808 (I'd forgotten to allow for Brexit!).

Edited June 26, 2017 by Il Grifone

[Wolseley]

They can't have been as bad as the old stock on the Waterloo and City line or the Glasgow Subway. It's true our temperatures are not quite as high, but it did seem like it in the rush hour. (Luckily just an unpleasant memory!)

 

 

I don't know about the Waterloo stock, but I did travel on the Glasgow Underground a few days before it closed and I can tell you that there is no comparison.  Apart from the first batch of wooden cars (which were closely based on the New York Subway cars) the single deck Sydney suburbans were of all steel construction, with all but the last design, the "Sputnik" cars (on which the Tri-ang model was based) being riveted together - the "Sputniks" were of welded construction.  "Red Rattler" was a tag invented by a tabloid newspaper, The Daily Telecrap Telegraph, when they were conducting a campaign for better public transport attacking the Government yet again without offering any constructive suggestions.  The name stuck because cuts in maintenance led to a deterioration of the rolling stock and the failure of the Government to provide funding for replacement vehicles when they were needed - the all-steel single deckers were designed for a lifetime of 40 years intensive suburban service, but some of the older ones clocked up as much as 67 years in revenue service.  A major difference between these cars and UK stock, in particular the Glasgow Underground, was the very generous loading gauge - the width is 10'6".  I'm not sure about the height but it's obviously fairly high as you are able to stand in the lower and upper decks (although, at 6' my head does come rather close to the ceiling in the upper decks).  The Glasgow Underground, by contrast, had creaky carriages that were designed for a city full of vertically challenged people, and I shudder to think of what the ventilation in them would have been like if they were in a humid climate.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Wolseley

[SRman]

I may be taking us a little off topic for a moment, but having ridden Sydney's single and double deck trains in the past, I can confirm that the double deckers' ceiling height was adequate for me (at 6' 2" in the old measure), and the immense width of the single deck cars was immediately apparent when boarding through the wide doorways.

Ironically, we in Melbourne have a wider track gauge but narrower and lower loading gauge. The one and only experimental 4-car double deck set here was based on Sydney's Tangara trains, but was 20cm lower (approximately 8"). That made a big difference to the interior clearances and even average height passengers were knocking their heads on the staircases!

We also had our "red rattlers" in Melbourne, wooden bodied EMU cars, many with clerestory roofs. The first electrics ran here in 1919 (7 years before Sydney's, I think), but some, at least, of the coaches were older and had been converted from steam-hauled stock (which sounds very reminiscent of Southern Railway and their predecessors practises).

Getting back to the Triang units, they aren't too bad as models, certainly for the times. They capture the character of the units, albeit without the fine detail of modern stuff. The running qualities will be pure 1950/60s, but the robustness will be unquestionable.

They are rare and command silly prices, but ultimately, they are only worth whatever someone is prepared to pay. In this case, that's probably quite a high sum!

There are more accurate models available in HO scale from Berg's Hobbies. These aren't exactly cheap either, but do boast some fine detail and modern, DCC-ready mechanisms, and include several different types/designs of single decker, plus the early Tulloch double deck cars that were used initially with the 'Sputniks' (which had four traction motors per Driving Motor), and later with the early Comeng double decker Driving motor coaches. Berg's also have the slightly later Comeng stainless steel double deck sets as two or four car units. I have none of these models and have no connection with Berg's, but thought it might be worth mentioning these for anyone who really wants to model the Sydney suburban system, as opposed to the collectors who would be more interested in the Triang unit.

p.s. I am about to break my normal British modelling habit, and purchase an Auscision NSW V set interurban double deck unit; probably the one and only Australian train that could tempt me to part with some cash. I have had some truly great trips on these units for real, north to Gosford and the Central Coast, and west into the Blue Mountains. They were supremely comfortable to ride in, as well as giving lovely views from the upper decks, and they looked quite good too.

Edited June 26, 2017 by SRman

[Wolseley]

I just noticed that the link to the image is no longer working.  It is also not working on the shop's website, and they do have the page now saying that their catalogue will be on line on Tuesday, so it looks like they're in the process of updating everything.  It's 9.45pm here right now, so maybe in about 12 hours or so we'll have something new to look at.

 

For those who didn't see the image when it was there, the box (for its age) is in pretty good (but not mint) condition and the carriages look almost as good as new.  Sorry, but I didn't pay any attention to what the track looked like.

[kevinlms]

Many years ago 1982 I think, my newly formed club had an auction for club members only. One of the members provided a whole lot of Tri-ang in excellent condition, but almost none had boxes.

 

Amongst this collection were some Sydney Suburbans, from memory a Motor coach and dummy and a centre coach, I think.

 

 

I expected them to attract some bids, but they didn't attract any bids at all. I wasn't interested in them for myself, but knew that a good friend who would kill for them, to go with his solo power car and centre car (I think that was all he had).

 

So I put in a bid for $30 for the lot and they were mine! I on sold them to him for the $30 that they cost me. He was delighted, even though the molded plastic didn't quite match in colour. I don't think he has ever built a layout, so probably just digs them out of the cupboard every so often & runs them up & down a few lengths of Series 4 track. Don't know as lost track of him years ago.

 

But for certain, he got a bargain, all those years ago. Two or 3 years later, I saw a 4 car set advertised for $600, so he did well.

[Wolseley]

The catalogue is now on line and the estimate and starting prices are, wait for it, estimate: $600–$1,000, starts at: $500

 

http://www.antiquetoys.com.au/auctions/first-monday-toy-auction/fmta_itemlist/

[GoingUnderground]

The catalogue is now on line and the estimate and starting prices are, wait for it, estimate: $600–$1,000, starts at: $500

 

http://www.antiquetoys.com.au/auctions/first-monday-toy-auction/fmta_itemlist/

Yup, that's the usual going price on ebay.

 

They are the rarest of all the Triang models ever to go into production in the 1960s. They turn up very occasionally in the UK. Properly boxed (ex Modelex) examples are extremely rare in the UK, and will attract top prices.

 

As a UK based Triang enthusiast, I'd love to buy that set, but it's likely to go for much, much, more than I can afford, even having a relation who lives in Australia who could bid for me.

 

There was a blue Victoria Railways liveried version shown in a Triang Australian catalogue, but according to Pat Hammond's books genuine examples have never been seen, even though he quotes Richard Lines as saying he believed they had been produced. The Leeds Forge Cars, as they are sometimes known never ran in Victoria.

Edited July 1, 2017 by GoingUnderground

[Jamie Douglas]

The price is around what you would expect, though with the box I would not be surprised if it rises above estimate. The bogies are an interesting mix of old and new, mixed on one of the cars even.

 

I have a fair few of these beasties in various combinations of livery, lettering and colour variations. It is all part of the charm of Triang collecting even if it did take about twenty years to get what I have now being able to run 8,4 3,2 and single car consists. The three car unit I believe is inaccurate though. They do not appear to be as rare as it used to seem before Ebay allowed us easier access to the world though.

 

Best wishes

Jamie

[Wolseley]

The three car unit I believe is inaccurate though.

 

 

 

Three car consists were rarely seen (I don't recall seeing one, but I am not going to say that they never ran like this).  The only way I can see a three car set having run would be if one car of a four car set was out of service for repairs.  I remember seeing the occasional seven car set, but even that makeup was a bit unusual.

[Wolseley]

Just out of interest, here's a photo I took some time in the 1970s (1975 or 76 perhaps?) of a train leaving Turramurra station en route for Hornsby.  The single deckers in this train are the "Sputnik" cars, which were, I believe, the ones selected as prototypes by Tri-ang for this set:

 

 

 

I just revisited that post and realised that the single deck cars in that photo are not "Sputnik" cars.  The set is an M set (based at Mortdale sheds) whereas the "Sputniks" were all coded "S" regardless of where they were stabled.  I can also see rivets on the car nearest the camera which, together with the window profile, would mean that it is a 1950 Tulloch car.

[Wolseley]

On 25/06/2017 at 21:19, Wolseley said:

I just thought it might be worth mentioning that one of these rare sets is coming up for auction on 3rd July at 6pm Sydney time.  The full catalogue is not available on line yet but, once it is, we will presumably know the estimate and, more importantly, the starting price.  If it takes your fancy, you can bid by by attending the auction venue in Mount Victoria (obviously only an option if you are in Sydney or the Blue Mountains), on line, or by leaving absentee bids prior to the auction.

http://www.antiquetoys.com.au/images/auctions/AuctionCQ/1200/CQ114.jpg

 

http://www.antiquetoys.com.au/pages/auctions/FMTA_Bigpic.php?ref=first-monday-toy-auction&title=First%20Monday%20Toy%20Auction&subtitle=Preview&itemnum=CQ114

 

Well, I never found out what that one sold for, but there's another one ( a boxed two car set) coming up for auction on Monday.  Not exactly mint, but about as close to mint as you're likely to find.  The estimate is $500–$1,000 and bidding starts at $300.

 

 (Lot 17)  https://antiquetoys.com.au/pages/auctions/auction_image.php?ref=https://antiquetoys.com.au/pages/auctions/fmta_itemlist.php&title=First Monday Toy Auction&subtitle=March 2022&itemcode=GB161&lotnum=17

[Il Grifone]

If I lived in Australia*, I might have been interested (I do have a Lima NSWGR C38, a coach, and a wagon), but this is a bit too much, so I'll have to pass! (SWMBO would have a fit and, being Tri-ang, I suspect the scale is not H0).

 

This one:

 

 

And it looks like they've rehashed the coaches (I think he means 'six axle' not 'six wheel'.:

 

 

*  It could have happened. There was an opportunity in the early seventies, but we decided it was just too far away! - maybe it was a mistake as it looks like 'On the Beach' could come true! Let's hope it's just sabre missile rattling!

Edited March 3, 2022 by Il Grifone

[Wolseley]

The C38 wasn't too bad in its day, but the tender was all wrong.  Rather than a model of a C38 tender, Lima used one from an existing model of theirs - an SNCF 141R I think.

[GoingUnderground]

On 02/03/2022 at 13:07, Wolseley said:

 

Well, I never found out what that one sold for, but there's another one ( a boxed two car set) coming up for auction on Monday.  Not exactly mint, but about as close to mint as you're likely to find.  The estimate is $500–$1,000 and bidding starts at $300.

 

 (Lot 17)  https://antiquetoys.com.au/pages/auctions/auction_image.php?ref=https://antiquetoys.com.au/pages/auctions/fmta_itemlist.php&title=First Monday Toy Auction&subtitle=March 2022&itemcode=GB161&lotnum=17

At first sight, it is the R3YA set, but here's something wrong with the trailer car as shown in the pictures on the auction site.

 

The body of the "trailer" is not from an R.451 Trailer car, but from the Driving Motor, R450/452. You can easily tell as the real R.451 trailer car end bays are the same at both ends, with 3 windows between the car end and the doors. see pages 116-117 and 181-182 in Hammond Vol 1. However the roof is correct for an R.451 Trailer car as it lacks the "Fuse " which disguises the OH/TK changeover switch. This could be a "factory assembly mistake" as I believe that the same tool was used to make both the DM and Trailer cars but with different inserts, one for the DM, one for the Trailer, as the trailer car has the necessary mounting points for a power bogie and the OH/TK changeover switch, which incidentally is the  same switch as used on the Steeplecab R.254, the Transcontinental Electric R.257, and the AL1/Class 81, R.753. Also the positioning of the screw fixings for the roof is the same on the DM and Trailer cars. but, equally, someone could have combined a Trailer roof and a DM body with the necessary dummy "power " bogie to get a sellable model. so I wouldn't expect it to attract an andditional premium for being a factory mistake.

 

The pantograph needs replacing as it is missing the pan head.

 

But the fact that it is boxed, especially of the box is correctly labelled will push it higher.

[Il Grifone]

3 hours ago, Wolseley said:

The C38 wasn't too bad in its day, but the tender was all wrong.  Rather than a model of a C38 tender, Lima used one from an existing model of theirs - an SNCF 141R I think.

 

My version of the Lima 141R is modified to look something like a USA Mikado (not unreasonable as they were an American build - apart from the tenders), but still has the 141R tender. Maybe I'll do something about both, but probably not.

Finding our new TV* has no SCART input, only HDMIs and the Blu-ray player bargain on eBay only has an HDMI output has meant modelling time (scarce anyway at the moment) has had to be wasted sorting the situation out (it involved add-on splitters, DACs and ADCs from China**). Daughter says I should throw out the VCRs, but I have a collection of 'Eisenbahn Romantik' tapes. (Star Wars too, but these are available on Blu-Ray).

*The Italian Government has a generous (uncharacteristically - their usual system involves paying more) eco-discount system where you get a 20% discount off a TV compatible with the new transmission standards by handing in an old non compatible one. Very Grifone friendly for once!

** I assume nobody is interested in how and what I did, so I won't elaborate!

[Wolseley]

11 hours ago, Il Grifone said:

 

My version of the Lima 141R is modified to look something like a USA Mikado (not unreasonable as they were an American build - apart from the tenders), but still has the 141R tender. Maybe I'll do something about both, but probably not.

 

One project I have on the back burner is to convert a Jouef 141R into a NSW Railways D59 class.  The locomotive doesn't need too much work but the tender will require a bit of reconstruction.  The resultant model will not be 100% accurate, as the tender will be too long but, as it's a tender driven model, I'm not going to try shortening it (the D59's were supplied with short tenders because the standard USRA Light Mikado's tender was too long to fit on a lot of the turntables on the lines where it was planned to use the engines - the modification substantially delayed the delivery of locomotives that should have been available "off the shelf").

[Craigw]

54 minutes ago, Wolseley said:

 

One project I have on the back burner is to convert a Jouef 141R into a NSW Railways D59 class.  The locomotive doesn't need too much work but the tender will require a bit of reconstruction.  The resultant model will not be 100% accurate, as the tender will be too long but, as it's a tender driven model, I'm not going to try shortening it (the D59's were supplied with short tenders because the standard USRA Light Mikado's tender was too long to fit on a lot of the turntables on the lines where it was planned to use the engines - the modification substantially delayed the delivery of locomotives that should have been available "off the shelf").

 

The shorter tender was ordered by the Railway Commissioner at the time but that was not the real reason they were delayed. The real reason the delivery was late was because BLH were having difficulty securing steel because of the Korean war. I have a copy of the letter from BLH to the railways somewhere - it exists in the archives still. 

 

Regards,

 

Craig W

[Wolseley]

1 hour ago, Craigw said:

 

The shorter tender was ordered by the Railway Commissioner at the time but that was not the real reason they were delayed. The real reason the delivery was late was because BLH were having difficulty securing steel because of the Korean war. I have a copy of the letter from BLH to the railways somewhere - it exists in the archives still. 

 

Interesting.  That's the first time I have heard that given as the reason for the delay.  I was going off the statement in "A Century Plus of Locomotives"  (published 1965 by the Australian Railway Historical Society, as a revised edition of "A Century of Locomotives" - originally published by the Department of Railways, NSW) that:

 

Quote

What would have been a prompt delivery from stock was seriously delayed by the refusal to accept them fitted with standard Baldwin tenders.  As new, shorter tenders had to be designed and constructed to enable them to be turned on a 60' diameter turntable, it was not until between August, 1952 and March, 1953, that they were delivered.

 

I suspect that the locomotives were available from stock (with standard Baldwin tenders) when ordered, but the impact of the Korean War, which began in June of 1950, was such that insufficient steel was available to build new tenders.  This could mean that steel shortages due to the Korean War would quite likely have delayed the delivery, but only because shorter tenders were specified.  If this is correct, we are both right......

 

Jim

 

 

Edited March 4, 2022 by Wolseley
Fixed typographical error