Class 175 & 180 in 4mm rtr

[Joseph_Pestell]

I am considering leading on the production of a series of Class 175 & 180 units. From my past involvement as a retailer and importer, I have some contacts in the manufacturing sector who could run this project and I have three possible producers in mind, all well-known for high-quality models here and in mainland Europe.

 

The idea would be to introduce these incrementally to spread the development cost. So we would start with the 2-car 175, move onto the 3-car 175 and then finally the 180, aiming  for a total programme time of 3 years.

 

Only a small amount of design work/research has been done at present, but I would expect that the 175s would be produced with one motored vehicle plus dummy trailers and the 180 produced with a motor vehicle at each end.

 

As we all know, costs have risen greatly. I would expect that the 2-car 175 would come in at around £180, the 3-car 175 at around £230 and the 5-car 180 at about £350.

 

I don't rule out that the centre car for the 175 could be available separately to enable folk to upgrade from 2-car to 3-car.

 

It could be a crowdfunding job (not my preference) or a deposit with order.

[big jim]

id have a 2 car arriva unit personally, purely based on cost

 

175/180s have been on wish lists for years so im hoping something will come of your plan as they are both quite well spread units geographically

 

on a personal note i used to drive 175s for fnw and arriva so they have been a 'want' for a long time

[£1.38]

Would buy several in N gauge, but 4mm scale is just too big - sorry!

[Joseph_Pestell]

Would buy several in N gauge, but 4mm scale is just too big - sorry!

That would probably be my own preference. But commercially, there are many more 4mm modellers out there.

 

Who knows, if we do get this project off the ground for 00, an N gauge one might be possible off the back of it.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Joseph_Pestell

[No Decorum]

I came unstuck in my voing by not voting “No”. No does not necessarily mean no, in that if the version I have voted for does not appear, I would choose another. A lot depends on who would do the job!

[Joseph_Pestell]

I came unstuck in my voing by not voting “No”. No does not necessarily mean no, in that if the version I have voted for does not appear, I would choose another. A lot depends on who would do the job!

 

I understand that people like to know who the manufacturer would be before they commit.

 

But it's a bit of a chicken-and-egg situation. I don't want a manufacturer spending time on a feasibility study if it is a complete non-starter. So, at this stage, I will only say that it will be a manufacturer with a track record for high-quality models in H0 and/or 00.

 

If it's looking good, I would hope to get the first CADCAM work done on the 175 before asking for any commitments and announcing the manufacturing partner.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Joseph_Pestell

[Joseph_Pestell]

Is it better just to do powered units? Or would unpowered dummies be useful? Obviously that has some impact on the choice of motorisation on the powered unit but should not make it significantly more expensive.

[No Decorum]

Is it better just to do powered units? Or would unpowered dummies be useful? Obviously that has some impact on the choice of motorisation on the powered unit but should not make it significantly more expensive.

It’s only my point of view but I would have no use for unpowered dummies.

[Joseph_Pestell]

It’s only my point of view but I would have no use for unpowered dummies.

It would be interesting to hear from a retailer who has experience with Dapol's non-motorised models.

 

I think that some people would want to run a 2 x 2-car train but not want the extra cost of two motors, two chips, etc. There is of course very little cost to offering this extra option.

[James Makin]

I'd be interested in the Class 180 Adelantes in the 2001 FGW colours, if it were ever made into a model. However, rather than two powered driving cars, my preference would be for a powered centre vehicle, with running dynamics to match Bachmann's 221 SuperVoyager as a benchmark to meet, good luck - it would be great to see something like this see the light of day!

 

Cheers,

James

[Joseph_Pestell]

I'd be interested in the Class 180 Adelantes in the 2001 FGW colours, if it were ever made into a model. However, rather than two powered driving cars, my preference would be for a powered centre vehicle, with running dynamics to match Bachmann's 221 SuperVoyager as a benchmark to meet, good luck - it would be great to see something like this see the light of day!

 

Cheers,

James

 

I don't see why not. There should not be too much difficulty in producing a chassis which has enough weight and big enough motor to power the other four.

 

The issue is doing it in a way that does not impact too much on the appearance of the interior of the coach or impact on the quality of the detailing below floor level. I need to take a more detailed look at both units to see how it would all fit together.

 

Personally, I think it important to install wiring through the unit so that pick-up is from the leading car in whichever direction.

[No Decorum]

Bachmann seems to have been holding off upgrading the Voyagers and Super Voyagers. When they were produced, a central powered coach must have seemed a good idea (minimising the number of pushed vehicles) but it has seemingly caused problems with the arrival of DCC. With lights in the end vehicles, either three decoders are required or else through wiring. For sound, a couple of extra non-sound decoders for the lights won’t cost much relative to the cost of a sound decoder and speaker but for non-sound DCC, it triples the cost and seems an unpopular idea.

 

On the other hand, through wiring has not always been done successfully in the past. At best, it’s rather fiddly.

 

For two-car units, one end vehicle will have to be powered. To produce a three-car unit, extra tooling for a powered central car and an unpowered end car will probably cost money. So, probably the cheapest solution would be a hefty powered end vehicle with pick ups and a trailer with simple connections for the lights only and no pick ups. Design it so that the centre vehicle can simply be connected between them to produce a three-car unit.

 

I think you could probably get away with using a single powered end vehicle even for the five-car unit.

 

Are you thinking of lit passenger compartments?

 

Please forgive me. Just musing.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Bachmann seems to have been holding off upgrading the Voyagers and Super Voyagers. When they were produced, a central powered coach must have seemed a good idea (minimising the number of pushed vehicles) but it has seemingly caused problems with the arrival of DCC. With lights in the end vehicles, either three decoders are required or else through wiring. For sound, a couple of extra non-sound decoders for the lights won’t cost much relative to the cost of a sound decoder and speaker but for non-sound DCC, it triples the cost and seems an unpopular idea.

 

On the other hand, through wiring has not always been done successfully in the past. At best, it’s rather fiddly.

 

For two-car units, one end vehicle will have to be powered. To produce a three-car unit, extra tooling for a powered central car and an unpowered end car will probably cost money. So, probably the cheapest solution would be a hefty powered end vehicle with pick ups and a trailer with simple connections for the lights only and no pick ups. Design it so that the centre vehicle can simply be connected between them to produce a three-car unit.

 

I think you could probably get away with using a single powered end vehicle even for the five-car unit.

 

Are you thinking of lit passenger compartments?

 

Please forgive me. Just musing.

No need for apologies. This sort of thinking out loud is very good for a project.

 

From a production viewpoint, the nice thing about the Adelantes is the amount of standardisation. I need to do a bit more work on this, but I can't immediately see any reason why the same chassis could not be used on the driving car of a 175 and the central car of five on a 180.

 

On the sound issue, I need some advice from DCC experts. Ideally, there should be an option for a speaker on each vehicle. Is it better to do  this with a sound chip in each vehicle (they are getting cheaper) or through wiring so that there can be just one chip wired to the multiple speakers. Are there chips that would feed five speakers?

 

I take your point about through wiring systems being fiddly and sometimes unreliable although continental HO manufacturers have been doing it for quite a while now.

 

I think that interior lighting is definitely to be expected these days. The knack is getting it not too bright. And I like the doors unlocked lights on RealTracks' latest releases.

[No Decorum]

To start with the easy bit: I think you’re right that interior lighting is more-or-less expected in a multiple unit these days although hauled coaches are only just starting to catch up. Doors unlocked lights? They seem to me to call for opening doors!

 

I love sound but I wouldn’t describe myself as an expert. Decent sound decoders are still expensive and, if anything, getting more so thanks to the prospect of Brexit. I’d say that multiple decoders should be avoided on cost grounds. As to speakers, I think that five would be overkill, however tempting five engines firing up one at a time might seem. Perhaps I’m not the ideal person to offer a view as I’ve been deaf in one ear since my teens but I do recall the arrival of stereo. Obviously, I cannot judge where sounds are coming from but stereo added more depth to sound for me. I have a 37 with a very nice sound project on it from Digitrains using a conventional bass reflex speaker. I was persuaded by Jeremy at Digitrains to try two sugar cubes in a later Class 37 project. I was very sceptical because of the small speakers but to my astonishment, the sound was better. I put it down to the depth of sound coming from two sources.

 

In conclusion (and other views would be very worth getting) I think that a speaker at each end of the train would be enough.

[Joseph_Pestell]

To start with the easy bit: I think you’re right that interior lighting is more-or-less expected in a multiple unit these days although hauled coaches are only just starting to catch up. Doors unlocked lights? They seem to me to call for opening doors!

 

I love sound but I wouldn’t describe myself as an expert. Decent sound decoders are still expensive and, if anything, getting more so thanks to the prospect of Brexit. I’d say that multiple decoders should be avoided on cost grounds. As to speakers, I think that five would be overkill, however tempting five engines firing up one at a time might seem. Perhaps I’m not the ideal person to offer a view as I’ve been deaf in one ear since my teens but I do recall the arrival of stereo. Obviously, I cannot judge where sounds are coming from but stereo added more depth to sound for me. I have a 37 with a very nice sound project on it from Digitrains using a conventional bass reflex speaker. I was persuaded by Jeremy at Digitrains to try two sugar cubes in a later Class 37 project. I was very sceptical because of the small speakers but to my astonishment, the sound was better. I put it down to the depth of sound coming from two sources.

 

In conclusion (and other views would be very worth getting) I think that a speaker at each end of the train would be enough.

Opening doors has been done now. But perhaps that is slightly overkill. Next you will want passengers stepping on and off (or at least the guard).

[No Decorum]

Opening doors has been done now. But perhaps that is slightly overkill. Next you will want passengers stepping on and off (or at least the guard).

What a good idea!

[Joseph_Pestell]

I have received some advice on the DCC sound issues. Seems straightforward enough to have the units ready for easy sound installation even if it is not offered off-the-peg.

[James90012]

It would be interesting to hear from a retailer who has experience with Dapol's non-motorised models.

 

I think that some people would want to run a 2 x 2-car train but not want the extra cost of two motors, two chips, etc. There is of course very little cost to offering this extra option.

 

It is quite rare to see 2x 2car 175s running in multiple - purely from my observations at Cardiff over the years. Far less common than other DMU types.

 

I voted for FGW 180 - but this being the old livery rather than new!

[big jim]

It is quite rare to see 2x 2car 175s running in multiple - purely from my observations at Cardiff over the years. Far less common than other DMU types.

 

 

you know what your right there, not seen a175 in multi for a while!

 

however my last train worked for arriva was a 10 car combo, 2x2 car and 2x3 car

 

including 175110 in its 'ghost' livery

[Joseph_Pestell]

Plenty of photos on t'internet of 2 x 2 175.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Well, I thought RMWeb was mostly for steam enthusiasts. But I have been surprised at the lack of interest this thread has engendered. Between the two types, quite a lot of the country sees these units (or has in the past).

[amwells]

I would suggest that the lack of posts doesn't mean that your proposal wouldn't be a success. Two things that have led me to not post on here before:

- there have been several 'I'm going to make x, y and z' threads that have been on here before and come to nought. I'm sorry that I don't know you and therefore the reliability of your credentials but that makes me wonder how serious this is; and

- I'm not a fan of polls. If someone asked me to order something (with credentials established), then I probably would

 

Meant to be constructive to help understand what I think and others may think

[James Makin]

Well, I thought RMWeb was mostly for steam enthusiasts. But I have been surprised at the lack of interest this thread has engendered. Between the two types, quite a lot of the country sees these units (or has in the past).

I think it's worth pressing on if you think there's a market to justify it!

 

I do think that both of these units are amongst the more 'forgotten' types, 'also-rans' around the network today, carrying on their standard duties without a lot of fuss, rather than capturing enthusiast & modellers attention in the same way as say Voyagers, HSTs or Pendolinos do! While both models of the 175s and 180s would be fantastic additions to a layout, they appear unlikely to generate mass hysteria the same way as a Blue Pullman!

 

I think the difference would be however, once people see mock-ups/drawings/renders of these painted up in their many gorgeous colour schemes then I think that it would draw attention and hopefully tempt pre-orders!

 

Cheers,

James

[MRDBLUE17]

Hi Joseph,

 

Just noticed this tonight. The 175 in first is certainly of interest as they ran in the North west and would fit future projects for me. Like James they are not the most exciting types but fairly essential to create a realistic model of the everyday trains.

 

I would worry about the limited reach just polling on here and running a wider survey via magazines modelling news, large shows and society's would create a more accurate perspective of the demand for them.

 

As for DCC sound/ lighting spec for units Realtracks 156 is going to set the bar so maybe have a chat with Charlie and Arran and Bif.

 

Thanks

Mark

[Joseph_Pestell]

All fair comments.

 

My preference would indeed to have CADs/renders available before launching the idea to a wider public. I recognize the weaknesses of a survey here but worth doing anyway as part of the process.

 

Blue Pullman was greeted with some scepticism at first. And that was indeed something of a success. This may not attract quite the same level of interest but it is easier to do as it only requires one set of bodywork tooling at a time rather than all three at once.