Chameleon Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 I am thinking of including a short bit of standard gauge in the corner of my 009 layout for transhipment of slate/rock/ore etc. How was this done where narrow gauge railways met standard gauge, (Ffestiniog,Talyllyn etc) What sort of wagons were used and was it cross platform or were cranes used? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quarryscapes Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 Most common just the NG runs onto a higher level so that the wagons can be easily unloaded into the taller SG ones. Cranes would have been available depending on the traffic, wagons depends on traffic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edge Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 It all depends on the type of railway: -Some of the welsh slate quarries actually ran their narrow gauge trains on to standard gauge wagons, - The Leek and Manifold did exactly the opposite and transported standard a gauge wagons on narrow agauge flat trucks - the L&B had shared platforms for passengers and simple parallel sidings for goods. Don't forget that most often the choice to build a narrow gauge railway was financially based (I.e. It was cheaper). If they exchanged with standard gauge at all it was most often done cheaply and in the most simple ways Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted July 4, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 4, 2017 (edited) It all depends on the type of railway: -Some of the welsh slate quarries actually ran their narrow gauge trains on to standard gauge wagons, I guess you're thinking of the Padarn and it was actually 4ft gauge carrier wagons that took four 2ft ng wagons, not standard gauge, and the slates were hand transferred again to standard gauge. Top pic here http://historypoints.org/index.php?page=padarn-railway-host-wagon Rather nice G64 models here too http://dave-mills.yolasite.com/models-in-progress.php Slates had to be stacked by hand and they lost money on the breakages. As said above it was quite common for the ng to be at the floor height of the SG and goods were hand moved. Larger items would be craned or on a trolley. Coal was just shovelled across and most other goods were boxed or bagged and carried over. The Leek and Manifold moved milk in SG tanks by three types of transporter wagons in two lengths. There are photos of open wagons on them too so I assume some large general goods were moved that way too. http://railthing.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/leek-and-manifold.html?m=1 So for your layout a sunken SG track alongside the NG wharf with one or a few NG sidings depending on the amount of goods transferred. Edited July 4, 2017 by PaulRhB Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 I guess you're thinking of the Padarn and it was actually 4ft gauge carrier wagons that took four 2ft ng wagons, not standard gauge, and the slates were hand transferred again to standard gauge. No - both the LNWR and the GWR had standard gauge transporter wagons for 2' gauge wagons; used from Blaenau Festiniog to their respective shipping outlets. Regards, John Isherwood. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted July 4, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 4, 2017 (edited) No - both the LNWR and the GWR had standard gauge transporter wagons for 2' gauge wagons; used from Blaenau Festiniog to their respective shipping outlets. Regards, John Isherwood. Never seen those mentioned before So I had a search and they ran a short trip before transshipment to SG wagons again. http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gansg/2-track/02track4.htm Edited July 4, 2017 by PaulRhB Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 Never seen those mentioned before So I had a search and they ran a short trip before transshipment to SG wagons again. http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gansg/2-track/02track4.htm Didn't the LNWR ones run down to the port - quite a decent run? I'm sure that I've seen a photo of NG slate wagons on a quay which had no NG connection; (Caernarvon?). Regards, John Isherwood. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted July 4, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 4, 2017 I don't know John but Caernarvon would be likely with the short hop by SG from Dinas. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall5 Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 (edited) Didn't the LNWR ones run down to the port - quite a decent run? I'm sure that I've seen a photo of NG slate wagons on a quay which had no NG connection; (Caernarvon?). Regards, John Isherwood. Me too - I've seen photos of LNWR long wheelbase flats carrying n.g. slate wagons on Deganwy quay. FWIW an old MRC c.1965 had info/drawings of the GWR wagons used to carry n.g. slate wagons from Manod to Blaenau Ffestiniog. Ray. Edited July 4, 2017 by Marshall5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signaller69 Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 A couple of other ideas, the Snailbeach District Railway had a narrow gauge siding at Pontesbury running on a pier over a standard gauge siding; Ore hoppers with bottom doors were discharged straight into std. Gauge wagons below: https://www.hfstephens-museum.org.uk/images/stories/railways/snailbeach/pontesbury%20c.1926.jpg In the Buckley area (N. Wales), bricks were carried in narrow gauge "Shipping Boxes" (basically small wooden flat wagons with ends); these were pushed straight onto special std gauge Traders PO flat wagons with ends (EG Buckley Traders Society, which would hold 6 or 8 shipping boxes), and held in place by a simple drop down bar on each side. These were then taken down the Buckley Branch to Connahs Quay Docks where the shipping boxes were lifted on to ships by crane/derrick. This practice continued into the early 60s but using standard open wagons which had replaced the earlier Traders wagons. As a general rule whatever was the easiest practical method of transhipping the particular commodity would be employed to keep labour costs to a minimum. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edge Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 I think the consensus here is that pretty much anything had a prototype, so whatever fits Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chameleon Posted July 4, 2017 Author Share Posted July 4, 2017 (edited) Thanks for all that. Suppose the simple option is a short platform with the ng running along it with recessed at on the other side. Mind you I like the idea of loading slate wagons onto standard gauge... Does anyone do a kit of those transporter wagons? Edited July 4, 2017 by Chameleon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quarryscapes Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 (edited) Thanks for all that. Suppose the simple option is a short platform with the ng running along it with recessed at on the other side. Mind you I like the idea of loading slate wagons onto standard gauge... Does anyone do a kit of those transporter wagons? I've looked into doing the GWR transporters, but haven't yet. They're going to be quite awkward. They were only used between Tan y Manod and Blaenau yard. The LNWR ran it's transporters from Blaenau to Deganwy, nowhere near Caernarfon. Caernarfon shipped slate from SG wagons which would have been loaded at Dinas for the NWNG, or Nantlle. Some of the Nantlle quarries had SG rail connection. Edited July 4, 2017 by Quarryscapes Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 The LNWR ran it's transporters from Blaenau to Deganwy, nowhere near Caernarfon. I did add a question mark after the Caernarvon suggestion - I didn't have time to plough through my library of North Wales NG books, I'm afraid. Regards, John Isherwood. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invicta Posted July 5, 2017 Share Posted July 5, 2017 Thanks for all that. Suppose the simple option is a short platform with the ng running along it with recessed at on the other side. Mind you I like the idea of loading slate wagons onto standard gauge... Does anyone do a kit of those transporter wagons? Those LNWR ones in Paul's link above look very much like the 2-plank dropsides from the Ratio 'Permanent way wagons' set of kits... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastglosmog Posted July 5, 2017 Share Posted July 5, 2017 (edited) The Ravenglass and Eskdale (when in 15" form) had a wagon tippler at Ravenglass to transfer crushed granite from narrow to standard gauge until 1928. For a short period the tippler was replaced by bottom discharge hoppers, before the whole lot was replaced by a standard gauge branch to the crushers at Murthwaite iin 1929. Edited to add: The Glyn Valley Tramway also had a wagon tippler for transferring crushed granite from narrow to standard gauge at Chirk. Edited July 6, 2017 by eastglosmog Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ramblin Rich Posted July 6, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 6, 2017 Minffordd yard on the Festiniog line had a sort of interleaved yard with high and low level lines - there were chutes from standard gauge wagons downwards to load coal into narrow gauge, and higher level narrow gauge to allow level loading of slates. Some good images on the Festiniog wiki page Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Northroader Posted July 6, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 6, 2017 The Talyllyn Railway had a neat arrangement at the Wharf in pre preservation days. There was a small fan of sidings, each ending in a wagon turntable. A line ran square on to the sidings through each of the turntables. A standard guage siding ran parallel with this at a lower level, so that both Railways wagons were side by side with their floors at the same height, making transference easy. There was no run round loop, leaving the Wharf the line rose after the main road bridge, so arriving coaches or wagons could be pushed back up, held on the handbrake and the loco run clear, then the rolling stock roll into the yard using gravity. Here's a photo in the early preservation days before the yard was rebuilt, and the BR siding taken out. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chameleon Posted July 7, 2017 Author Share Posted July 7, 2017 That does look very neat n tidy. Would be the most economical use of space in the corner of the layout. A wee loading platform with the NG on top alongside the SG wagons. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted July 8, 2017 Share Posted July 8, 2017 There's a nice photo of a very modest transhipment near Blaenau Ffestiniog LNWR facility here. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Andy Kirkham Posted July 11, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 11, 2017 Here's an example that was still functioning as recently as ten years ago - Eastriggs between Annan and Gretna Interchange between standard and narrow gauge at Eastriggs, February 16 2007 by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merfyn Jones Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 There's a nice photo of a very modest transhipment near Blaenau Ffestiniog LNWR facility here. Thanks for posting that one Bernard, just the job for my layout, not seen in colour before. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevelewis Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 A couple of other ideas, the Snailbeach District Railway had a narrow gauge siding at Pontesbury running on a pier over a standard gauge siding; Ore hoppers with bottom doors were discharged straight into std. Gauge wagons below: https://www.hfstephens-museum.org.uk/images/stories/railways/snailbeach/pontesbury%20c.1926.jpg In the Buckley area (N. Wales), bricks were carried in narrow gauge "Shipping Boxes" (basically small wooden flat wagons with ends); these were pushed straight onto special std gauge Traders PO flat wagons with ends (EG Buckley Traders Society, which would hold 6 or 8 shipping boxes), and held in place by a simple drop down bar on each side. These were then taken down the Buckley Branch to Connahs Quay Docks where the shipping boxes were lifted on to ships by crane/derrick. This practice continued into the early 60s but using standard open wagons which had replaced the earlier Traders wagons. As a general rule whatever was the easiest practical method of transhipping the particular commodity would be employed to keep labour costs to a minimum. As a Buckley dweller! I thought readers might like to know that, a couple of years or so ago the town council did a town centre revamp, and removed all benches, they were replaced with replica shipping boxes, complete with wheels, set into the pavement on 'track' the only part they lack are the ends, there are around 18 of these sited in pairs, surprisingly none appear to have been vandalised and none have disappeared down the nearby hill. Next time I go to the town centre I will photograph them! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signaller69 Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 As a Buckley dweller! I thought readers might like to know that, a couple of years or so ago the town council did a town centre revamp, and removed all benches, they were replaced with replica shipping boxes, complete with wheels, set into the pavement on 'track' the only part they lack are the ends, there are around 18 of these sited in pairs, surprisingly none appear to have been vandalised and none have disappeared down the nearby hill. Next time I go to the town centre I will photograph them! Thanks Steve, wasn't aware of that, only in Flint myself so will have to look out for them next time I'm passing through, the Buckley area and its substantial network of old railways and tramways serving the many brickworks, clay pits and collieries fascinates me. With apologies to the OP if slightly off topic. Martyn. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevelewis Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 Re the Buckley area, quite a comprehensive book by James I C Boyd 'The Wrexham Mold & Connahs Quay Railway' sometimes available quite cheaply on eBay or Amazon, I was more than a little surprised to find out about my own area when I read it! The LNER in North Wales who would have thought it! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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